On 2017-01-09 at 9:30 PM, Majushi said:

I think your definition of "grotesquely evil" and mine are quite different.

He's defended his home (geonosis/tunnels), using weapons at his disposal (droids) to kill intruders (saw's team)

So it's okay for Americans to murder illegal immigrants on sight to defend their home. Okay. And that's a pretty far stretch because a Rebel rescue team aren't there illegally, they were there to HELP him.

Anyway last week's episode took the Star Trek exploding computer terminals to an extreme. Such a stupid nonsensical solution.

And this week had Ezra do a Harry Potter, something stupid and against his mentor's obviously sensible order, but hey, no punishment.

But we also got to hear that "he" is the chosen one, which you are meant to understand as meaning Luke, but could just as easily mean Ezra BRIDGER who will bring balance to the force, the guy that can use both sith and jedi holocrons, idolizes Ahsoka the "not a jedi" with a white light saber, and is getting badu lessons from the badu master.

30 minutes ago, Union said:

So it's okay for Americans to murder illegal immigrants on sight to defend their home. Okay. And that's a pretty far stretch because a Rebel rescue team aren't there illegally, they were there to HELP him.

Anyway last week's episode took the Star Trek exploding computer terminals to an extreme. Such a stupid nonsensical solution.

And this week had Ezra do a Harry Potter, something stupid and against his mentor's obviously sensible order, but hey, no punishment.

But we also got to hear that "he" is the chosen one, which you are meant to understand as meaning Luke, but could just as easily mean Ezra BRIDGER who will bring balance to the force, the guy that can use both sith and jedi holocrons, idolizes Ahsoka the "not a jedi" with a white light saber, and is getting badu lessons from the badu master.

It's okay, have a Snickers.

Touchy politics aside, I did think the solution to the droid thing was kind of silly, but it's been done before in other things. It's just a dumb trope.

Regarding Ezra- I actually kind of like how he's not getting the traditional Jedi treatment. He's had three force-user role models so far- Kanan the almost-jedi (technically he is a jedi, I know), Maul the former sith and darkside user, and Ahsoka the non-Jedi. Obi Wan is really the most traditional Jedi he's met (and the dude's a desert hermit, so that's saying a lot). I really hope that because of that, their meeting will really have an affect on Ezra in the future, and that he won't be forgotten about for the rest of the series.

I think it's pretty clear that Disney is taking Star Wars in a new-ish direction. The prequels, in all their faults, did one really cool thing. Somewhat subtlety (and by that, I mean it's kind of obvious, but I didn't catch it as a child) they depicted the Jedi as extremely flawed. While the sith were still mustache-twirling evil villains, the Jedi and their arrogance were clearly also to blame for their own fall.

With Disney, they take it a step further. Not only is the rigid doctrine of the Jedi imperfect, but all aspects of the force are to be embraced. With Ahsoka and the Bendu, we see a more neutral interpretation of the force, while we have a bit of tug of war between slightly more polarized beliefs with Maul and Kanan.

The big question is, is this right? Jediism has been heavily based on eastern religions, but its doctrine regarding the light side is more typicaly western. A "middle path" isn't really something the jedi consider- or, if they do, they've moved the goalposts to ensure that the middle path still falls well within the light side. But what if the Bendu is right? After all, it makes sense that passion is neither good nor bad.

Yet, with meeting Obi Wan, we are once again reminded of a more traditional education in the force, with Luke. And we have to ask ourselves- was Luke really trained the right way? Or was his more strict adherence to the light side what ultimately caused him to fail again?

With the speculation that Benicio del Toro's character in Episode VIII might be an older Ezra Bridger, we might have our answers by the end of the year.

I don't know- I could go on about this for a while, but I'm very interested to see where the developments of the past few episodes take us.

I enjoyed the ending of Rebs season two, it was genuinely interesting. However, ever since season 3 started, I've felt each and every episode is progressively more dumb and nonsensical then the last one. At this point, I'm wondering how long they can keep that progression up, it's quite a feat in itself.

2 hours ago, player1750031 said:

I enjoyed the ending of Rebs season two, it was genuinely interesting. However, ever since season 3 started, I've felt each and every episode is progressively more dumb and nonsensical then the last one. At this point, I'm wondering how long they can keep that progression up, it's quite a feat in itself.

Having just seen the Season 2 finale last Saturday, I totally agree that it's one of my favorite moments in the series. Yeah, Season 3 has been pretty hit or miss. There have been some really cool moments, but there's also been a ton of filler.

Honestly, I think the entire series would work better in a slightly shorter form. Maybe 12 episodes a season instead of 22. But, then again- we also have to remember that this show, while certainly for adults, also has an audience of kids who just want something to watch as they eat cereal on Saturday mornings.

Season 1 was introduction and setup for season 2. Season 3 is seemingly containing a lot of setup again, but some very good episodes too.

13 hours ago, subtrendy said:

I think it's pretty clear that Disney is taking Star Wars in a new-ish direction. The prequels, in all their faults, did one really cool thing. Somewhat subtlety (and by that, I mean it's kind of obvious, but I didn't catch it as a child) they depicted the Jedi as extremely flawed. While the sith were still mustache-twirling evil villains, the Jedi and their arrogance were clearly also to blame for their own fall.

With Disney, they take it a step further. Not only is the rigid doctrine of the Jedi imperfect, but all aspects of the force are to be embraced. With Ahsoka and the Bendu, we see a more neutral interpretation of the force, while we have a bit of tug of war between slightly more polarized beliefs with Maul and Kanan.

The big question is, is this right? Jediism has been heavily based on eastern religions, but its doctrine regarding the light side is more typicaly western. A "middle path" isn't really something the jedi consider- or, if they do, they've moved the goalposts to ensure that the middle path still falls well within the light side. But what if the Bendu is right? After all, it makes sense that passion is neither good nor bad.

Yet, with meeting Obi Wan, we are once again reminded of a more traditional education in the force, with Luke. And we have to ask ourselves- was Luke really trained the right way? Or was his more strict adherence to the light side what ultimately caused him to fail again?

I totally, completely agree with this. I recently saw a video that suggests this middle-way, Zen-like balance of light and dark may have been the direction Lucas was planning all along. (There is apparently a poem from as early as the Journal of the Whills that evokes imagery of the fall of the Jedi and then elimination of the Sith that then leads to a philosophy of balance.

Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about things ultimately moving in that direction, if true. After all, I still like to think of Jedi as light-side heroes, even if they had some major flaws in the era of the Republic.

45 minutes ago, rbaker1978 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about things ultimately moving in that direction, if true. After all, I still like to think of Jedi as light-side heroes, even if they had some major flaws in the era of the Republic.

The Old Republic video games explored how most people couldn't tell the Sith and Jedi apart and hated the Jedi as much as the Sith because most Sith were just fallen Jedi. So the Sith were a product of the Jedi and really at fault for their evil.

Ezra has had a lot of teachers including Anakin from the holocrons. He's also used dark side powers freely like mind controlling an AT-ST pilot to kill storm troopers then commit suicide. He's becoming a swiss army knife of powerful force abilities and it's starting to get a bit silly.

If Rey wasn't such an absurd text book Mary Sue and obviously set up to be "the chosen one" I'd think Ezra would be the hero who fixes all the problems with the force in episode 9. Maybe he'll show up as a teacher/mentor or something.

9 hours ago, rbaker1978 said:

Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about things ultimately moving in that direction, if true. After all, I still like to think of Jedi as light-side heroes, even if they had some major flaws in the era of the Republic.

True. I'm not necessarily saying the Jedi are inherently bad, and in many ways, the Sith are. But that's because of the values each order has built themselves around, outside of the force. The Jedi, though they (are supposed to) lack passion, can show compassion. The Sith are selfish.

But the dark and light sides are not necessarily bound to these values.

One of the biggest turnoffs for me in watching the Clone Wars or Prequels or any of that stuff is the lack of a hero. The Jedi are so hypocritical and clueless and amoral you actually could get confused as to which side is the good side (maybe that's what they were going for but for me it was a turnoff) Anakin is such a despicable human that you can't root for him in any venue. I understand having character flaws to drive a plot, but to me, most of the prequels is like picking between Hitler and Stalin as far as morality goes. I've enjoyed the Rebels a bit more because even though the show is dumbed down as far as a kids show, at least some of the characters have a sense of right and wrong and try to live by it (they may make mistakes or I may not agree with their personal code, but at least they're not blatantly hypocritical except for Ezra) I may not agree with their decisions but in view of their moral code, at least they are consistant.

10 hours ago, Union said:

The Old Republic video games explored how most people couldn't tell the Sith and Jedi apart and hated the Jedi as much as the Sith because most Sith were just fallen Jedi. So the Sith were a product of the Jedi and really at fault for their evil.

I thoroughly enjoyed that about the Bioware games. It made a lot of sense, since that era of Star Wars saw the Jedi-Sith conflict escalate to a degree that made Death Stars look like pea shooters. Having the average Joe be at best indifferent and at worst hostile towards ANYONE with a laser sword was not only refreshing but made a lot of sense in context of the pain and suffering caused by a senseless war fought over what is essentially a philosophy dispute.

20 minutes ago, player1750031 said:

I thoroughly enjoyed that about the Bioware games. It made a lot of sense, since that era of Star Wars saw the Jedi-Sith conflict escalate to a degree that made Death Stars look like pea shooters. Having the average Joe be at best indifferent and at worst hostile towards ANYONE with a laser sword was not only refreshing but made a lot of sense in context of the pain and suffering caused by a senseless war fought over what is essentially a philosophy dispute.

I'm going to go even further. KOTOR and (moreso) SWTOR gave us Tython, a planet that literally gets ravaged by disasters if the force is not in balance. This concept has been sort of canonized in Clone Wars with the Ones, and I really hope the concept of what it really means to find balance is explored more.

I think that if they handle it well and make Light and Dark essentially Yin and Yang, then it can work. That would require removing evil elements from the Dark side, though, and that's so ingrained into what the light and dark sides of the force (canonically) mean I wonder how that would go over. It looks like Kanan is going down that path, though. But if they spin it as the Sith (or other dark-side force users) have such a bad misunderstanding of what the dark side really means, then maybe it can work.

51 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

One of the biggest turnoffs for me in watching the Clone Wars or Prequels or any of that stuff is the lack of a hero. The Jedi are so hypocritical and clueless and amoral you actually could get confused as to which side is the good side (maybe that's what they were going for but for me it was a turnoff) Anakin is such a despicable human that you can't root for him in any venue. I understand having character flaws to drive a plot, but to me, most of the prequels is like picking between Hitler and Stalin as far as morality goes. I've enjoyed the Rebels a bit more because even though the show is dumbed down as far as a kids show, at least some of the characters have a sense of right and wrong and try to live by it (they may make mistakes or I may not agree with their personal code, but at least they're not blatantly hypocritical except for Ezra) I may not agree with their decisions but in view of their moral code, at least they are consistant.

I can see that (think it's a pretty big flaw with the prequels in general, though at least the prequels sort of work if viewed as a tragedy).

Though, I guess Game of Thrones is kind of the same way, and that's one of my favorite shows. Like TCW, Game of Thrones is set in a place after a sort of golden age of heroes (or at least, that's how everyone remembers it) in which current heroism is now dead. Even the more likable characters (Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon, Sam, Ned, etc) have some major flaws that either make them-

a) non-heroic

or

b) Too morally dangerous to be considered a traditional hero

Gone are the days when Ned and Robert heroically (again, at least how some people remember it) fought the Targaryens, gone is the mythical fairytale of the Tower of Joy. Now, we have characters grounded in poop jokes and graphic sex scenes.

And honestly, I think that kind of resonates with modern audiences. We'll never have a mythical leader like Abraham Lincoln or George Washington again- not because of person has changed, but because mass communication allows for a more direct link between a "hero" and his people. Instead of legend dictating how someone is perceived, we can see their very words firsthand, unfiltered- and, well, not to get specific, but current events show how utterly damaging that can be.

I think Star Wars is very much the same way. That's why Naboo and Coruscant look so decadent and regal. That's why the tech of the prequels is so superior and comfortable when compared to the OT. That even might be why former canon is now called "legends". Heck, Han's "It's all true" speech in TFA was pretty cool, but technically we don't know all of the details of what legends Rey and Finn have been told. Han might have just confirmed to them that Luke married a wookie before he left Tatooine.

Anyway, that was a huge tangent. Anyone who's made it this far gets a cookie.

I thought the last episode was among the best I've seen from them.

1 hour ago, subtrendy said:

I can see that (think it's a pretty big flaw with the prequels in general, though at least the prequels sort of work if viewed as a tragedy).

Though, I guess Game of Thrones is kind of the same way, and that's one of my favorite shows. Like TCW, Game of Thrones is set in a place after a sort of golden age of heroes (or at least, that's how everyone remembers it) in which current heroism is now dead. Even the more likable characters (Tyrion, Daenerys, Jon, Sam, Ned, etc) have some major flaws that either make them-

a) non-heroic

or

b) Too morally dangerous to be considered a traditional hero

Gone are the days when Ned and Robert heroically (again, at least how some people remember it) fought the Targaryens, gone is the mythical fairytale of the Tower of Joy. Now, we have characters grounded in poop jokes and graphic sex scenes.

And honestly, I think that kind of resonates with modern audiences. We'll never have a mythical leader like Abraham Lincoln or George Washington again- not because of person has changed, but because mass communication allows for a more direct link between a "hero" and his people. Instead of legend dictating how someone is perceived, we can see their very words firsthand, unfiltered- and, well, not to get specific, but current events show how utterly damaging that can be.

I think Star Wars is very much the same way. That's why Naboo and Coruscant look so decadent and regal. That's why the tech of the prequels is so superior and comfortable when compared to the OT. That even might be why former canon is now called "legends". Heck, Han's "It's all true" speech in TFA was pretty cool, but technically we don't know all of the details of what legends Rey and Finn have been told. Han might have just confirmed to them that Luke married a wookie before he left Tatooine.

Anyway, that was a huge tangent. Anyone who's made it this far gets a cookie.

and yet neither of those figures (washington or lincoln) are mythical in my mind, the more I read about them, yes they both had faults and sometimes even alterior motives, but deep down, especially if you read their journals, they had righteous motives. Their motivation was for the betterment of their people, for unity, liberty and the pursuit of happiness etc. , instead of ultimate power, submission of a people, selfish or self-aggrandizing motives like the folks in the prequels and Clone Wars. You're entirely right that there is some commentary on our society (which is sad in my opinion, but not all is lost and there are more good people trying to help others than is reported by a corrupt, self-serving media or entertainment industry) and this is why I prefer Rebels, not do to quality as I think that's pretty much the same (everything is head and shoulders above the prequels) but there is much more hope in the characters in Rebels. Hera is Heroic. Kanan, for all his weakness and faults is trying to improve and help Ezra be a better man, choose the right, etc. They actually do care about each other as a family and express and show it by their actions. So I like it better. I could never watch Games of Thrones (or most modern TV shows) for several of the reasons you just mentioned.

I will donate my cookie for the benefit of the suppressed people of Ryloth.