A Star destroyer is a heavily armored and compartmentalized mile long combat vessel.

A GR-75 is a feeble thin hulled and barely compartmentalized 90 meter cargo hauler.

There's no reaching for justification.

A Star destroyer is a heavily armored and compartmentalized mile long combat vessel.

A GR-75 is a feeble thin hulled and barely compartmentalized 90 meter cargo hauler.

There's no reaching for justification.

A Star destroyer is a heavily armored and compartmentalized mile long combat vessel.

A GR-75 is a feeble thin hulled and barely compartmentalized 90 meter cargo hauler.

There's no reaching for justification.

By that logic, a mile long ship has 11 hull. How does Motti add more hull? Does he get Ewoks to go space walk and rivet in some more plates? And when he dies, do the Ewoks take another trip to go rip off the plates?

And how does that 11 hull translate to the Deimator which has a hefty 8 hull for a ship smaller than the GR-75?

Good thing canon doesn't actually dictate how this game was built, right?

A Star destroyer is a heavily armored and compartmentalized mile long combat vessel.A GR-75 is a feeble thin hulled and barely compartmentalized 90 meter cargo hauler.There's no reaching for justification.

Huh? If there's one thing a GR-75 has, it's compartments.

Lots of cargo containers, only one passenger section... Not very compartmentalized!

Question, do ALL the ships in the flotilla die at once? Or are the hull points 1 per ship in the flotilla? Because it's awfully odd that they'd all just pop at once. So everytime a flotilla loses a hull point, shouldn't you have to check and see if that was the ship he was on?

When I run 2 Star destroyers, my Commander doesn't magically beam over to the next!

I think what you're wanting is to use the models to play a different game. I would recommend West End Games D6 Star Wars RPG system. Part of the reason I made the initial investment in Armada was because I could use the ships for space combat in that game still for a planned campaign. That system has all the kinds of rules you are describing. That game, however, is not Armada.

A Star destroyer is a heavily armored and compartmentalized mile long combat vessel.

A GR-75 is a feeble thin hulled and barely compartmentalized 90 meter cargo hauler.

Accurate and irrelevant.

You can't make people not put their commander on a flotilla. It's legal, they can do it. That's not "unsporting."

If you want to see less commanders on flotillas, start bringing ships that can easily kill flotillas so they're no longer safe places for a commander to hide and then your opponents will over time (rationally) move them back to more durable heavier ships. It's as easy as that. Trying to simply shame people into doing something doesn't work.

Well this is clearly a hot topic haha.

Having read through most of this I will say this. Yes it is legal and in the rules. However it doesn't really jive with the whole idea of Armada and how fleets of any kind have been shown to work. In other words its not very sportsmanlike to be frank. I know, MUH COMPETITIVE, MUH RULEBOOK, and you are totally right but that doesn't make it sporting. I am not saying put your commander on your biggest most decked out ship. I am saying don't put it on a Ford-350 Superduty in space.

To the people reeeeeing about canon, chill. I agree that it kind of betrays the spirit of the game but I feel the same way about people who drop the cash to bring like 6 or 7 YT-2400s. Not what was intended I believe but it is perfectly legal. The difference with me is that I will argue flotillas really shouldn't be allowed to be flaghsips, especially considering the model itself is two ships and the silliness of it. Two flagships lol.

Just my two cents on the matter.

I really don't understand the whole "not sporting" thing. Are people finding it hard to kill a flotilla if they really want it dead? How is it somehow unfair, which is what not sporting implies? I can see the not-thematic argument, but not the unsportsman-like one. Should I put my commander on my biggest, slowest ship and fly it speed 2 into whatever arc you have with the most dice?

Sportsmanship is like pornography. Difficult to describe but you know it when you see it.

There are times at the game table (regoinals/nationals/worlds) to be tough as nails and follow the letter of the rules. Then there are other times when you want to make sure everyone is having a fun time pushing star wars minis on the table.

Knowing when to do each of these is the trick.

Let me address these two point here. To Caldias let me say, that you clearly aren't reading my post. Did I say put the fleet commander on your biggest baddest ship? No, I actually said specifically that I was NOT calling for that. I was saying that putting them on a tiny lifeboat that flits back and forth at the back of the mat is hardly enticing or fun. Should I try to blitz through the rest of your fleet to kill the flotilla? See? I can ask rhetorical questions as well.

Democratus hits the nail pretty much on the head. The game should be about fun not MUH WIN MARGIN outside of tournaments and the likes. As I said in my original post they are perfectly legal and I will not argue against that. Nor am I saying that you shouldn't do it. I am saying how leading with your helmet into another guys helmet in football used to be. Legal but not exactly sportsmanlike. The fun of a community is that we get to discuss what we all want out of the game and to be frank some of you on both sides need to get the stick out your ass.

Sportsmanship is like pornography. Difficult to describe but you know it when you see it.

There are times at the game table (regoinals/nationals/worlds) to be tough as nails and follow the letter of the rules. Then there are other times when you want to make sure everyone is having a fun time pushing star wars minis on the table.

Knowing when to do each of these is the trick.

This whole idea that you could possibly equate a legal list build or strategy with rules sharking is so bizarre to me. How can following the rules of the game in the logical direction to maximize your chances of winning possibly be considered unsporting?

Sportsmanship is about having respect for your opponent.

Using "gotcha" rules interpretations, enforcing obscure and unnecessary caveats, capriciously shifting from casual to strict enforcement mid-game: bad sportsmanship.

Running 8 YT-2400's, ET ramming CR90B's, or admiral lifeboats: not bad sportsmanship.

I only want to say one thing here and its about the 8 YT-2400s. It creates a haves and have nots meta in squadrons regarding who has the money to really blow on it. Its not like having two or 3 sets of fighters or 3 of the same kind of ship because those are still fairly limited in what can come on and the base squadrons aren't particularly good or bad. Again, I am all for using the rules to the fullest extent during tournaments but using such builds in a more casual setting with more casual players, unless it has already been laid out that you are testing a fleet, can be like bringing a gun to a knife fight or at least a sword to a knife fight. Can you see what I am getting at?

If people want to see things change in Armada I want to see their reasons why and both sides need to stop being such asses about it. Ultimately people should play how they want to and those who don't like it are free to make comment on it, try to engender change, and try to build fleets and metas that counter the things they don't like.

A Star destroyer is a heavily armored and compartmentalized mile long combat vessel.

A GR-75 is a feeble thin hulled and barely compartmentalized 90 meter cargo hauler.

There's no reaching for justification.

By that logic, a mile long ship has 11 hull. How does Motti add more hull? Does he get Ewoks to go space walk and rivet in some more plates? And when he dies, do the Ewoks take another trip to go rip off the plates?

And how does that 11 hull translate to the Deimator which has a hefty 8 hull for a ship smaller than the GR-75?

Good thing canon doesn't actually dictate how this game was built, right?

As I've said before, and, as you've ignored before, the game is full of wonky stats! If they had really planned ahead (as awesome as FFG is, they DON'T plan ahead! Just look at xwing, why are cargo ships more maneuverable than a-wings and interceptors!) this game could EASILY be both thematically canon(ish) and mechanically awesome!

Why? BECAUSE THEME AND MECHANICS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!

I know that it's wayy late, but I wanted to share my experience with popping Flotilla's like this. A raider with Expanded Launchers and Sensor Team has a very reliable percentage to pop a flotilla every time it gets to shoot. (Barring a flub of the 4 black dice).

I run this with Screed to very good effect.

Well this is clearly a hot topic haha.

Having read through most of this I will say this. Yes it is legal and in the rules. However it doesn't really jive with the whole idea of Armada and how fleets of any kind have been shown to work. In other words its not very sportsmanlike to be frank. I know, MUH COMPETITIVE, MUH RULEBOOK, and you are totally right but that doesn't make it sporting. I am not saying put your commander on your biggest most decked out ship. I am saying don't put it on a Ford-350 Superduty in space.

To the people reeeeeing about canon, chill. I agree that it kind of betrays the spirit of the game but I feel the same way about people who drop the cash to bring like 6 or 7 YT-2400s. Not what was intended I believe but it is perfectly legal. The difference with me is that I will argue flotillas really shouldn't be allowed to be flaghsips, especially considering the model itself is two ships and the silliness of it. Two flagships lol.

Just my two cents on the matter.

I really don't understand the whole "not sporting" thing. Are people finding it hard to kill a flotilla if they really want it dead? How is it somehow unfair, which is what not sporting implies? I can see the not-thematic argument, but not the unsportsman-like one. Should I put my commander on my biggest, slowest ship and fly it speed 2 into whatever arc you have with the most dice?

Sportsmanship is like pornography. Difficult to describe but you know it when you see it.

There are times at the game table (regoinals/nationals/worlds) to be tough as nails and follow the letter of the rules. Then there are other times when you want to make sure everyone is having a fun time pushing star wars minis on the table.

Knowing when to do each of these is the trick.

Let me address these two point here. To Caldias let me say, that you clearly aren't reading my post. Did I say put the fleet commander on your biggest baddest ship? No, I actually said specifically that I was NOT calling for that. I was saying that putting them on a tiny lifeboat that flits back and forth at the back of the mat is hardly enticing or fun. Should I try to blitz through the rest of your fleet to kill the flotilla? See? I can ask rhetorical questions as well.

Democratus hits the nail pretty much on the head. The game should be about fun not MUH WIN MARGIN outside of tournaments and the likes. As I said in my original post they are perfectly legal and I will not argue against that. Nor am I saying that you shouldn't do it. I am saying how leading with your helmet into another guys helmet in football used to be. Legal but not exactly sportsmanlike. The fun of a community is that we get to discuss what we all want out of the game and to be frank some of you on both sides need to get the stick out your ass.

Sportsmanship is like pornography. Difficult to describe but you know it when you see it.

There are times at the game table (regoinals/nationals/worlds) to be tough as nails and follow the letter of the rules. Then there are other times when you want to make sure everyone is having a fun time pushing star wars minis on the table.

Knowing when to do each of these is the trick.

This whole idea that you could possibly equate a legal list build or strategy with rules sharking is so bizarre to me. How can following the rules of the game in the logical direction to maximize your chances of winning possibly be considered unsporting?

Sportsmanship is about having respect for your opponent.

Using "gotcha" rules interpretations, enforcing obscure and unnecessary caveats, capriciously shifting from casual to strict enforcement mid-game: bad sportsmanship.

Running 8 YT-2400's, ET ramming CR90B's, or admiral lifeboats: not bad sportsmanship.

I only want to say one thing here and its about the 8 YT-2400s. It creates a haves and have nots meta in squadrons regarding who has the money to really blow on it. Its not like having two or 3 sets of fighters or 3 of the same kind of ship because those are still fairly limited in what can come on and the base squadrons aren't particularly good or bad. Again, I am all for using the rules to the fullest extent during tournaments but using such builds in a more casual setting with more casual players, unless it has already been laid out that you are testing a fleet, can be like bringing a gun to a knife fight or at least a sword to a knife fight. Can you see what I am getting at?

If people want to see things change in Armada I want to see their reasons why and both sides need to stop being such asses about it. Ultimately people should play how they want to and those who don't like it are free to make comment on it and try to build fleets and metas that counter the things they don't like.

Hey man, no stick here. I wasn't intending to sound as serious as I guess I came across, but I was rubbed a little bit the wrong way by you calling the other side of thinking MUH COMPETITIVE simply because people want to play a different way than you do. My thing is you can build a viable fleet and stick your commander on a ship that's not a flotilla if you like doing that, but I didn't and still don't think it's fair to say something isn't sportsmanlike just because it's something you don't like to do, that's not like saying you shouldn't spear, it's more like saying, "It's too hard to tackle the quarterback, I don't think quarterbacks should have an offensive line." Playing this game is about making hard choices, and putting a commander on a transport is a way to have your opponent have to make more hard choices.

Like I said, I can understand the not-thematic argument, and as I said earlier, I really think one of the reasons CC is so great is it is sort of a bridge between the extreme thematic vs the extreme tournament mindset. I fall in the middle, but CC has me leaning more thematic just because of the system, and I definitely put my commander on an AFMK II in that because it feels more correct to me, since the matches now have context.

Just look at xwing, why are cargo ships more maneuverable than a-wings and interceptors!

Because they are? Or at least, the Falcon is. Go rewatch Empire or Jedi, and watch the Falcon maneuver through asteroid fields and the Death Star better than TIEs do. Actual cargo ships that haven't been massively suped up like the YV, Lambda, and VCX have sufficiently restrictive dials.

As for the OT, I really don't get why people are so upset about this. It's perfectly valid game mechanics, and if you don't include some way of dealing with flotillas in your fleet you are definitely doing it wrong.

Also in literally every fleet battle we see the Rebels fight in there's GR-75s everywhere. Gozantis are also reasonable ships in their own right.

In fairness I did say the theme side was "reeeeing" pretty hard lol.

A Star destroyer is a heavily armored and compartmentalized mile long combat vessel.

A GR-75 is a feeble thin hulled and barely compartmentalized 90 meter cargo hauler.

There's no reaching for justification.

By that logic, a mile long ship has 11 hull. How does Motti add more hull? Does he get Ewoks to go space walk and rivet in some more plates? And when he dies, do the Ewoks take another trip to go rip off the plates?

And how does that 11 hull translate to the Deimator which has a hefty 8 hull for a ship smaller than the GR-75?

Good thing canon doesn't actually dictate how this game was built, right?

All very good questions! I totally agree, NONE of that makes sense!

As I've said before, and, as you've ignored before, the game is full of wonky stats! If they had really planned ahead (as awesome as FFG is, they DON'T plan ahead! Just look at xwing, why are cargo ships more maneuverable than a-wings and interceptors!) this game could EASILY be both thematically canon(ish) and mechanically awesome!

Why? BECAUSE THEME AND MECHANICS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!!!

I'm going to continue ignoring you since you seem to think I hate Star Wars and feel the need to drag it across the forums for what ever reason, and then tell me to stop playing. So yea, I have every right to ignore a troll.

But this is Armada. Don't bring X-Wing into this. I don't care about it. I don't play it. Go play your thematic games. I'm still going to do what the rules allow me and will not let anyone constrain my builds with their own self imposed rules.

I only say it, because you said it, you told that to the forums. You said that, not me, I just point it out because it matters in a debate about theme.

Edit: And xwing matters too, because many people play Armada because they don't like xwing or like what xwing became. Both are from the same company, so patterns of behavior are there.

A Star destroyer is a heavily armored and compartmentalized mile long combat vessel.A GR-75 is a feeble thin hulled and barely compartmentalized 90 meter cargo hauler.There's no reaching for justification.

Huh? If there's one thing a GR-75 has, it's compartments.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/31/0e/fe/310efe563eedf08a18e1389af350ab2f.jpg

Lots of cargo containers, only one passenger section... Not very compartmentalized!

A Star destroyer is a heavily armored and compartmentalized mile long combat vessel.A GR-75 is a feeble thin hulled and barely compartmentalized 90 meter cargo hauler.There's no reaching for justification.

Huh? If there's one thing a GR-75 has, it's compartments.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/31/0e/fe/310efe563eedf08a18e1389af350ab2f.jpgLots of cargo containers, only one passenger section... Not very compartmentalized!

Each container is a compartment.

At least we know the infantry summer wear shorts in cargo container 124D will be safe!

Sportsmanship is like pornography. Difficult to describe but you know it when you see it.

There are times at the game table (regoinals/nationals/worlds) to be tough as nails and follow the letter of the rules. Then there are other times when you want to make sure everyone is having a fun time pushing star wars minis on the table.

Knowing when to do each of these is the trick.

This whole idea that you could possibly equate a legal list build or strategy with rules sharking is so bizarre to me. How can following the rules of the game in the logical direction to maximize your chances of winning possibly be considered unsporting?

Sportsmanship is about having respect for your opponent.

Using "gotcha" rules interpretations, enforcing obscure and unnecessary caveats, capriciously shifting from casual to strict enforcement mid-game: bad sportsmanship.

Running 8 YT-2400's, ET ramming CR90B's, or admiral lifeboats: not bad sportsmanship.

The rules also don't say anything about being a ****: that's something you need to learn on your path to adulthood.

Running 8 YT's is the definition of WAAC play: you should only do this at WAAC tournaments. If you aren't at a national level tournament (and you haven't agreed ahead of time with your opponent that you're effectively playing at that level), you're just being a ****. The rules say you can do that, but you shouldn't.

I only say it, because you said it, you told that to the forums. You said that, not me, I just point it out because it matters in an debate about theme.

Did I explicitly say "I hate Star Wars" and if so where? And where are you getting this insane idea? And what right do you have to tell me to stop playing a game that I enjoy?

Sportsmanship is like pornography. Difficult to describe but you know it when you see it.

There are times at the game table (regoinals/nationals/worlds) to be tough as nails and follow the letter of the rules. Then there are other times when you want to make sure everyone is having a fun time pushing star wars minis on the table.

Knowing when to do each of these is the trick.

This whole idea that you could possibly equate a legal list build or strategy with rules sharking is so bizarre to me. How can following the rules of the game in the logical direction to maximize your chances of winning possibly be considered unsporting?

Sportsmanship is about having respect for your opponent.

Using "gotcha" rules interpretations, enforcing obscure and unnecessary caveats, capriciously shifting from casual to strict enforcement mid-game: bad sportsmanship.

Running 8 YT-2400's, ET ramming CR90B's, or admiral lifeboats: not bad sportsmanship.

The rules also don't say anything about being a ****: that's something you need to learn on your path to adulthood.

Running 8 YT's is the definition of WAAC play: you should only do this at WAAC tournaments. If you aren't at a national level tournament (and you haven't agreed ahead of time with your opponent that you're effectively playing at that level), you're just being a ****. The rules say you can do that, but you shouldn't.

So I shouldn't do something within the rules because you don't like it? Well I guess I should stop trying to kill your ships and just sit at speed 0.

I only want to say one thing here and its about the 8 YT-2400s. It creates a haves and have nots meta in squadrons regarding who has the money to really blow on it. Its not like having two or 3 sets of fighters or 3 of the same kind of ship because those are still fairly limited in what can come on and the base squadrons aren't particularly good or bad. Again, I am all for using the rules to the fullest extent during tournaments but using such builds in a more casual setting with more casual players, unless it has already been laid out that you are testing a fleet, can be like bringing a gun to a knife fight or at least a sword to a knife fight. Can you see what I am getting at?

No, yeah, I get what you're getting at. I just don't agree with it. I don't want to get too far off topic here, so I'll just throw the one-post response out there and be done.

The YT-2400 spam would be a problem if it gave the player using it a demonstrable advantage over those who couldn't afford it. Fortunately, that is not the case, as was very publicly and decisively demonstrated in the World's semifinal game between Steven and Justin. Justin used a very balanced fighter wing that could be constituted with, if I'm not mistaken, 2 Rebel Fighter packs and 1 R&V pack to completely neutralize the YT-2400 cloud.

This is not a case of haves vs have-nots any more than any other fleet composition in the game. Or, hell, the ability to spend the several hundred dollar minimum investment to play competitively at all. Sure, I can build a super-expensive fleet and do fine with it. But until I am unable to build a similarly powerful inexpensive fleet, it's not an issue. And the day may come when that happens, but it hasn't yet.

If people want to see things change in Armada I want to see their reasons why and both sides need to stop being such asses about it. Ultimately people should play how they want to and those who don't like it are free to make comment on it and try to build fleets and metas that counter the things they don't like.

Absolutely agree here.

Sportsmanship is like pornography. Difficult to describe but you know it when you see it.

There are times at the game table (regoinals/nationals/worlds) to be tough as nails and follow the letter of the rules. Then there are other times when you want to make sure everyone is having a fun time pushing star wars minis on the table.

Knowing when to do each of these is the trick.

This whole idea that you could possibly equate a legal list build or strategy with rules sharking is so bizarre to me. How can following the rules of the game in the logical direction to maximize your chances of winning possibly be considered unsporting?

Sportsmanship is about having respect for your opponent.

Using "gotcha" rules interpretations, enforcing obscure and unnecessary caveats, capriciously shifting from casual to strict enforcement mid-game: bad sportsmanship.

Running 8 YT-2400's, ET ramming CR90B's, or admiral lifeboats: not bad sportsmanship.

The rules also don't say anything about being a ****: that's something you need to learn on your path to adulthood.

Running 8 YT's is the definition of WAAC play: you should only do this at WAAC tournaments. If you aren't at a national level tournament (and you haven't agreed ahead of time with your opponent that you're effectively playing at that level), you're just being a ****. The rules say you can do that, but you shouldn't.

I only want to say one thing here and its about the 8 YT-2400s. It creates a haves and have nots meta in squadrons regarding who has the money to really blow on it. Its not like having two or 3 sets of fighters or 3 of the same kind of ship because those are still fairly limited in what can come on and the base squadrons aren't particularly good or bad. Again, I am all for using the rules to the fullest extent during tournaments but using such builds in a more casual setting with more casual players, unless it has already been laid out that you are testing a fleet, can be like bringing a gun to a knife fight or at least a sword to a knife fight. Can you see what I am getting at?

No, yeah, I get what you're getting at. I just don't agree with it. I don't want to get too far off topic here, so I'll just throw the one-post response out there and be done.

</snip>

If people want to see things change in Armada I want to see their reasons why and both sides need to stop being such asses about it. Ultimately people should play how they want to and those who don't like it are free to make comment on it and try to build fleets and metas that counter the things they don't like.

Absolutely agree here.

Yeah, it looks like some people are talking about casual games and WAAC games. This can all be avoided if we make ourselves known ahead of time. It sounds like your a WAAC player, and refuse casual play. Thats fine: if we're the only two people who show up on armada night, it looks like we would both be out of a game.

From the original poster (actually, I don't think its the original post, but someone else who got onto this tangent): I think we need to do better of segregating our play groups into Casual and WAAC.

As far as the casual play: think really hard if you're using more than double the component limitation's (read, expansion pack's) amount of a particular thing, and don't try to do things that aren't really there in the movies (why are the support ships and the admiral all the way on the other side of the fight? Is he a deserter or a coward?)

For Tournament play: find the most efficient things you can, and take as much of it as you can.

.... are we really talking about segregating playgroups, now?

Like... as a solution?

Like... "**** You, You can't play with us..."

.... are we really talking about segregating playgroups, now?

Like... as a solution?

I don't want those filthy casual players drinking from my water fountain

But really, this is a horrible way to solve this issue. I tend to think everyone here plays seriously and builds tournament lists because people who want to play casual tend to say they don't like the competitive scene.

Segregating the community is a horrible idea. We may not all agree with each others opinions, but that doesn't mean we need to put the competitive people in one place, and casual players in another. There is a lot of cross over between them. I enjoy tournaments, but I consider CC a casual format, but everyone I play with is also competitive.

I like to make eccentric casual lists, but once I find one that works I try to make it competitive. So where would I get placed?