There is nothing more to see here.

Move along.

No payment, no play.

No list, kind of workable.

Agree with Gink. I get the requirement to post lists ahead of time for the organizer's sake, but as long as it's not abused, you should be flexible for ones and twos.

Personally, I feel like once I've paid to be in the tournament, unless I've done something significantly wrong like making a scene during the event or not showing up, I'm owed a reasonable assurance that I'll get to play.

Definitely no pay, no play, though. And make it clear that this is inflexible.

Getting people to commit to an event if you don't set deadlines can be difficult. People say they will attend and don't etc.

Selling tickets which could become sold out is one way. People will buy a ticket to reserve their space.

It can be tricky not knowing how many will attend and a nightmare for the organiser. It can damage a venue's reputation if people without tickets chance it and then get turned away. Anyone can vent on a forum and only present their side of the story.

If you have limit on players, we use the first to pay, first to play. If they do not pay then they risk not being able to play. Only had to do this with warhammer.

The list I feel at this time is not as big a of deal compared to other games with 10 different army rules.

Why not encourage buying a seat and still allow people to show up and pay? Seems kind of a poor business plan unless you have amazing advertisement, which I would consider FB to be very poor.

But if you were to follow your rules, if you didn't pay, you don't get to play. Getting a head count ahead of time can be useful for allocating space and allowing multiple events to be run the day of.

I don't think the list thing is an issue. Tournament rules state a player must submit a list before the event, whether it is a week or 10 minutes. Unfair for the store to deny a player from playing when they haven't figured out their list a week in advance. I registered for NC regionals over a month in advanced and had no idea what I was going to play.

Why not encourage buying a seat and still allow people to show up and pay? Seems kind of a poor business plan unless you have amazing advertisement, which I would consider FB to be very poor.

But if you were to follow your rules, if you didn't pay, you don't get to play. Getting a head count ahead of time can be useful for allocating space and allowing multiple events to be run the day of.

I don't think the list thing is an issue. Tournament rules state a player must submit a list before the event, whether it is a week or 10 minutes. Unfair for the store to deny a player from playing when they haven't figured out their list a week in advance. I registered for NC regionals over a month in advanced and had no idea what I was going to play.

But if 16 players can and do work things out in advance, by the deadline, as per request - is it 'fair' to make an exception for the one?

I mean, I didn't clarify - the Deadline to Register and the Deadline to have a list in was the Same Date - but it was NOT a case of "List when you register:"..

You could pre register at any time, as long as you emailed a list in by the end date .

Why not encourage buying a seat and still allow people to show up and pay? Seems kind of a poor business plan unless you have amazing advertisement, which I would consider FB to be very poor.

But if you were to follow your rules, if you didn't pay, you don't get to play. Getting a head count ahead of time can be useful for allocating space and allowing multiple events to be run the day of.

I don't think the list thing is an issue. Tournament rules state a player must submit a list before the event, whether it is a week or 10 minutes. Unfair for the store to deny a player from playing when they haven't figured out their list a week in advance. I registered for NC regionals over a month in advanced and had no idea what I was going to play.

But if 16 players can and do work things out in advance, by the deadline, as per request - is it 'fair' to make an exception for the one?

If it was my choice, I'd allow anyone to join if they want to, up until game time.

I get you want to follow what you laid down, but doing that can dissuade someone from trying to come back. This isn't a report or a college application where you must meet the deadline. This is still a game, and we should try to include everyone in our community.

However, if you only have 16 seats for the tournament, then no, you should not include anyone else.

However, if you only have 16 seats for the tournament, then no, you should not include anyone else.

Another Note: This wasn't me

I'm gathering the info, because its going to be me in the future

I think if the store is having trouble getting sufficient players to run an event, then putting a deadline so that they can decide to run or not run the event is good and by necessity needs to be followed. If you wanted to play and didn't commit and the event was canceled.. then we didn't even get to the point you are asking about.

If the store can get 16 players, and there are some stragglers, I think it's fine they play as long as there is space and they weren't getting some advantage like seeing other peoples lists before they submitted theirs or something.

If there was stuff organized based on the number of entrants, then anyone late has to just accept they can't partake in that. Like the store made a card for everyone who was going to play. If they didn't make the cut off, they probably don't get a card.

I guess if there's some paper work that needs to be done, like verifying lists, then they need to have the list in before that or it's not fair to whoever is doing that work. But I've never been to an Armada event where the lists were verified like that.

If it's just about playing in the event, if there is room, more is better isn't it? It sucks they are "late", but the event is going down with or without them. Why not with them. It's like someone just finding out about the event at the last minute.. if there's room, why not let them join? To me it's technically not really too late until the games have started.

So I am directly involved in this as I am the guy that paid 3 weeks ago and was an hour late submitting my list due to being stuck at work. (real life sucks). I had called the Tournament organizer while I was on a break to get clarification regarding a rules questions as I was trying to decide between 2 lists for Saturdays regionals event. After the rules question was clarified I had stated to the Organizer that I was still at work and would submit my list when I got home as it was on my computer to which he said ok. I fine out this morning that I had been cut from the roster as I was an hour late and he absolutely refused any kind of leeway what so ever in this case despite 14 hours prior on the phone. I may not have been clear but I had thought we came to an agreement. I was an hour late and that i accept. I was told the rules were clearly posted ( I was never once told where and to this date can't find it ). I was not once instructed to a location to view said rules. Drasnighta posted on Wednesday stating payment and lists were due on Thursday by 9pm via the facebook group. Granted I saw this but it slipped my mine but also Drasnighta is in no way running this event and how was I to know that he did not have access to this e-mail as I wrongful shrugged this off and forgot about it. The Organizer posted via the facebook group less than 6 hours before the due time that he still needed lists and payment from certain people that were on his list. I was at my second job at this time and could not access my computer to submit my list. I went on my lunch break and called him as previously stated above and asked my questions and informed him I was still at work and I would submit my list once I got home again I remind you all that he agreed to this with a response of "ok."

I must also add that I do not live in Calgary where this event is being held and live about 90 minutes away for I don't make it in to all their gatherings for games. I was not aware they had an event pages or there was no information other than time and date on this facebook event they had made even though it was clearly posted for months.

I feel like I have been cheated out of playing in this regionals event through sheer stubbornness / and poor organization. there are a few others that are not listed in this scenario that have also but cut from the list. Friends of mine that could also not find the information that is allegedly clearly posted that none of us can find. ( I am not insinuating anything here other than was I have stated ).

That's unfortunate, and when I wrote my post earlier I didn't realise a ticket had been paid for weeks in advance.

As someone who is blissfully happy not being on Facebook I sympathise.

its 15 hours prior to this event taking place. Not like there will be anything done now to let me play. At least they will refund my money so that I can spend it somewhere else I guess. Its a shame too because I live between 2 major Cities and nobody in my area really plays Armada and I love the game. I mostly only get to play in Tournaments, not many players in my area that come out to game nights for Armada.

In the store's favor, I have to say very good on them for being clear with you ahead of time that you're not going to be allowed to participate. If they are not going to work with you on the list deadline, they at least owe it to you to be clear in that respect so that you don't make the 90-minute drive only to be turned away at the door. Which, it sounds like they have, so credit where it's due.

That said, it sounds like there was a little bit of failure of communication on both ends, going strictly from what we have here. If you, Matt, were going to bust the deadline--or thought you might--it's incumbent upon you to make it clear to the organizer that you need an extension and get a clear "yes, that's okay" from him/her. On the other hand, it would have been the right thing for the organizer to be proactive when communicating with you: Knowing that he was going to strictly enforce the deadline, it would have been better for him to have said "ok, just as long as you have it in my inbox no later than 1800 on Thursday" rather than "ok." A clear response like this would have let you at least submit something rather than missing out on the fun entirely.

I don't know, I get enforcing rules. But it really seems to me that something like a list submission deadline two days in advance, for a 16-player tournament, is one of those rules that can be bent as life circumstances dictate. I can't imagine what the TO needs the lists that far in advance for that can't be done in one day to accommodate a paying player.

Absolutely I do appreciate that. I'm not here to complain even though that how it kind of sounds. I just felt there was prudent information that was missing from the original post. This post will accomplish nothing for me as I have be excluded from this event via a ridiculous ruling that refuses to bend slightly to accommodate life happening. I could go on about how the weather was a snow storm and the drive home from work took longer and then and then and then. but the fact remains its his tournament and he refuses to make any exceptions for anything apparently. End of Story I get screwed because of life.

Drassy mate, you're a little too close to echoing a few things that are very much 'Red' vs. 'Blue' here, and for full disclosure, I may be as well. But if you want a fair study, take out those loaded words and indicative anecdotes as they're functionally irrelevant to an unbiased discussion of the issue.

"Should leeway be granted when dealing with issues surrounding registration. If yes, under what circumstances?"

There are always mitigating circumstances in life, and leeway should be granted to the extent that it is possible. If there is a limit in seating, as Undeadguy mentioned, then sure. Should the people that conformed be given preferential treatment? Absolutely, but should others be completely excluded... well, maybe not.

Drassy mate, you're a little too close to echoing a few things that are very much 'Red' vs. 'Blue' here, and for full disclosure, I may be as well. But if you want a fair study, take out those loaded words and indicative anecdotes as they're functionally irrelevant to an unbiased discussion of the issue.

"Should leeway be granted when dealing with issues surrounding registration. If yes, under what circumstances?"

There are always mitigating circumstances in life, and leeway should be granted to the extent that it is possible. If there is a limit in seating, as Undeadguy mentioned, then sure. Should the people that conformed be given preferential treatment? Absolutely, but should others be completely excluded... well, maybe not.

I'm all for that sort of feedback too, mate... Because I want this to be a fair indication, and some informational assistance going forward...

Unfortunately, I was caught up in it - and unfairly so - from both sides, and perhaps my frustration shows in the original statement and question...

Essentially, there's nothing I or anyone can do for the now - but I'm picking up the pieces for the future and I'd want to know.

And You know me. I am fairly Black and White when it comes to the "Rules"... But I am trying (albeit, and admittedly, unsuccessfully) from keeping my personal opinions out of it.

-laughs- I am too. I mean, not that I have any.... yeah okay, I got cut. Stuff came up, I was late, texting in a list in the middle of a pub while ignoring hockey is some sort of statue in Canada. Can't be done. But while I asked about something there that I missed, I'm not even in the odd case headcount.

But if you want an unbiased sampling, then you might want to take a few of those skewing statements out. After all, who cares if the store owner responded 'almost immediately' but not immediately, especially when others can say 'no contact in nearly a week' and also be correct. Keep it simple, should leeway be given? If seating is at a premium, that's totally fine, compliance takes priority. If there's a late arrival, what if a buy was used or created? I don't think anything is black and white, that's the younger more goose-stepping me, not the new pretty gym-rat me.

What do I think... overall, advertising is always important for the venue in order for it to sound official, especially if it's promoted as something exclusive or premier.

This whole thread is skewed to 1 point of view or the other. between you and me at this point.

I believe Leeway should be granted to a point within reason because life does happen and get in the way some times.It comes down to this is a game, and i think some organizers forget this fact. Leeway is given in almost every aspect of life. Im late for a doctors appointment, I've never been told go away. I've been late for work, I didn't get fired for that occurrence. Heck the Last T ornament in Edmonton all you Calgary guys were late arriving but you all still go to play didn't you?

My point is common sense is needed and leeway needs to be given because there are factors outside of peoples control that come up. Is this particular care the Organizer is being flat out unreasonable in my opinion and I would say it to his face in my particular case having paid 3 weeks in advance knowing that i was committed to attend this event.

This whole thread is skewed to 1 point of view or the other. between you and me at this point.

I believe Leeway should be granted to a point within reason because life does happen and get in the way some times.It comes down to this is a game, and i think some organizers forget this fact. Leeway is given in almost every aspect of life. Im late for a doctors appointment, I've never been told go away. I've been late for work, I didn't get fired for that occurrence. Heck the Last T ornament in Edmonton all you Calgary guys were late arriving but you all still go to play didn't you?

My point is common sense is needed and leeway needs to be given because there are factors outside of peoples control that come up. Is this particular care the Organizer is being flat out unreasonable in my opinion and I would say it to his face in my particular case having paid 3 weeks in advance knowing that i was committed to attend this event.

And why am I under fire for it?

All I wanted to know was what public opinion was. Rules are Rules, or look at leeway.

That's all I'm after.

And I'm getting the view.

So far today, I've been called a pawn, had it insinuated that I'm incompetent, and been beaten on as the "bad guy".

So, question over. Answers gotten. No more to see.

I'm not sure who was doing those things to you but It certainly was not me.

If you go through and read my comments, it was all directed at the Organizer to which you are not. I'm sharing my opinions and points of view for the purpose of your post. You can take it as a personal attack if you wish but that was never the intent. From my point of view you have done nothing wrong and I for 1 did not involve you in any way shape or form until you posted here.

Dras, I'm not familiar with your tournament running experience (so please don't take it as condescending if you've run a lot of them), and I'm not going to speak to this particular issue (since you weren't the Decider), but I would like to offer some advice from a grizzled and salty TO who ran too many events for too many years, if you'll have it.

The main questions I always try to ask myself (and easily lose sight of) are:

• Will this make my event more fun?
• Will this increase attendance to my event?

Seems obvious, but when you're dealing with gamers, it's not. We're talking about a group that wants to gripe about everything (I do it, too). They want lots of great events, but don't want to run them, they want you to run them. But not the way YOU want to run it, the way THEY want it run (or WOULD have run it, ignoring the fact that they didn't want to run it). /salt

Things need to be clear. House rules. List restrictions. Sign-up requirements/guidelines. Make sure it's posted very publicly, in multiple places. But above all, make sure everything enhances the two questions above. Since we're just talking about pre-registration, here's my take on how it fits in. Pre-reg only serves two purposes:

• Head count ahead of time. It helps to know how many people you can reliably expect. If you have six people pay in advance and submit lists, you can rest assured that they'll probably show up, and you'll need at least three tables. If it's a large event, it helps determine if you need additional resources (tables, mats, marshals/judges, a bigger space). I've also cancelled events, because two people committed and I didn't want to waste a whole day watching a single game of Warhammer.
• Space limitations. If you have a max number of players, you have a max number of players. So to prevent chaos and hurt butts day of, you have people pre-register. Those who do the two tasks required (pay and submit a list) get to play, anyone else can show up day of and hope for a no-show, but show up knowing they probably won't get to play.

Outside of that, it's someone trying to exert their Gamer Authority, and it's going to be a solid "No" to both questions above. The people who don't get to play will obviously not have fun, and fewer people will attend. If you have sixteen people signed up, but can host twenty, what difference does it make if someone didn't get a list and money by 8:00 the night before the event? If someone can get to the store and be just as ready to go by round one as everyone else, I never saw a harm in it. So if they pay but don't submit, as long as they put a list in my hands twenty minutes before go time, they're good. Or if they gave me a list, I'm fine with them showing up and handing me ten bucks (or whatever you call it in Canada. . .ten beavers? Ten moose?) for me to give to the store later.

The bigger problem I always encountered was Last Minute D-Bag (let's call him, I dunno, Ben). We all know Ben. He shows up to a 10:00 tournament at 9:50. He has no list. He wants to eat his breakfast before making a list. He starts taking his models out AT 10:00 (and for those unfamiliar, getting a Warhammer army ready could easily take thirty minutes). All the while his opponent, who showed up at nine, is sitting there, ready to go. It's the most frustrating thing as a TO and a player. After a lot of frustration and tinkering, I think I'd boil down my philosophy to this:

1. Publicly post max number of players and pre-reg requirements (have a reserve list, if pre-reg fills)
2. Tell people they can show up day of if spots are available, but it's first come, first served
3. Require day of participants to arrive before everyone else (critical)
4. Have a publicly-stated consequence for players who arrive late

I'll expand on three and four. I eventually started posting events with "Starts at 9:30/9:45, Dice Roll at 10:00" or "Registration Starts 9:30, First Pairings 9:50, Round One Starts 10:00." Never, ever, ever, ever say simply "Starts at X," because gamers seem to think "start" means "show up at." Someone who didn't pre-reg is going to be encouraged to show up earlier anyway, especially if only a few slots are available, but I also would tell them to show up before the 9:30 registration/sign-in. Have a clear cutoff, too. No registrations after X. And for that guy who drove thirty hours and gets there at 9:55 and didn't pre-reg and got stuck in traffic. . .sorry, bro. Google Maps that sum-***** and add twenty minutes, like an adult. I've driven hours to tournaments and never been late. And that's not me. . .I'm barely on time to work, like, every day. Worst case scenario? You arrive an extra twenty minutes early and hang out with fellow nerds who love the game you love and sit around talking about it.

Lastly, have a consequence. This was always so hard for Warhammer/40k, but to force a player to sit there for thirty minutes so Ben can eat and chat and finally finish his list. . .it's unfair. Especially if Ben plays an army that does all of its damage the first half of the game, and his unlucky opponent needs those last few turns they won't get because Ben showed up late. In Armada, make Ben forfeit tournament points. For every five/ten minutes after the start time Ben arrives at the table with a readied fleet, he has to give his opponent one point. Managed to squeak out a 6-4, Ben? Suck it. You were thirty minutes late, so that's now a 3-7. Show up on time.

If you give players the opportunity to pre-reg and the opportunity to show up by a certain time and you tell them they can't play if they arrive after a certain time. . .they can't complain. I mean, they WILL complain, but it's their own fault. If everything was posted publicly and you constantly direct people to that public posting, that's all you can do.

Again, not taking sides in this circumstance, just some thoughts for the future.

EDIT - The consequence also gives you leeway. If someone shows up late with a sob story because they didn't prepare well enough, you give them the choice. You can still participate, but this is what's going to happen. If they choose to walk away, they CHOSE to walk away. You didn't bar them or kick them out. It's also why a lot of places I've seen have pre-reg tourney fees be lower. You can show up day of, but it'll cost an extra five bucks.

I understand that you Drasnighta did not set up/run this one and are just looking for ideas to make it better when you do take over. With that said nothing here is directed at you.

Only thoughts I have that I think have not been covered, having the a cutoff time I think is a good thing. I am not sure that about letting someone pay at the same time that the cutoff for the list is needed. I would have the cutoff for pay be earlier than the cutoff for the lists, now maybe some flexibility if someone comes in before the list cutoff and wants to pay but this would depend on how many players you have compared to space. The second thing that I see is yes life gets in the way sometimes, and if you are waiting on an answer to a question to finish your list I see that as one thing, if you are trying to decide between two (or more) different lists and run out of time, to bad so sad you had plenty of time. Kind of like reegsk said give yourself plenty of time for travel to the location, same with summing you list, if you wait to the last minute I do not see it the venues fault if life gets in the way. Now like I said if they are waiting on an answer from the powers that be that is a different story. As someone who does not use at all facebook, twitter or any of those things, if it is clear that is where any questions will be answered the player has to decide will they use those things or go with there best guess, try for a face to face to get questions answered. If they ask a question in some other way and then say that the powers to be did not get back to them so that is why they are late, again to bad, so sad. Now having said that I do not ever use those systems my preference is for things like that to be done on systems such as this forum (the forum for the game that is being ran). So just my thoughts.