Ok, so maybe it doesn't fill the role it used to, but it's far from useless, especially with the Deadeye nerf. And a lot of the named pilots are still good for it, and its high HP and (sometimes) crew slot still make it plenty viable. So it doesn't match the efficiency of a Defender? No crap. Not much is supposed to. That's literally the point of the Defender. It's also a native 8 points cheaper. I mean, it packs 8 HP (5 of which are un-critable shields) and a barrel roll for 22 points. For 2 more points you get FCS, which gives it offensive action economy to match the x7's defensive economy.

I dunno, I don't fly Rebels so maybe I am just not familiar with the ship like some people are, but in all my games I have never really seen a B Wing be useless unless my dice were incredibly hot. But Defender envy is just plain stupid. It's just stupid. B-Wings were featured in tourney lists over and over after their release. Defenders barely registered a blip before they got their titles, and the lists they were in never got far. The Defender obviously needed a nudge because FFG grossly overpriced the white K.

What can the Bwing E2 do that the Uwing cannot? Both 23 points base.

The U has an extra agility most of the time, an extra crew slot, same attack power, same health, and a strictly better non-red dial. And a modification slot. It gives up... the ability to carry a tractor beam, barrel roll, and small base. And a second torpedo slot that never gets used, especially since E2 takes up the Guidance Chips slot.

The basic Bwing is only 6 points cheaper than an x7 Tie Defender. For less than the price of an HLC, you trade 2 shields for +2 agility and a free evade every round, plus get a white Kturn.

If it was JUST defender envy, you might have a point, but no. The Defender, the VCX, the Uwing, the ARC all outperform the Bwing AND Xwing (even after the xwing buff, it's now up to Bwing levels) in the jousting role, while having options the older ships lack.

Yeah, I have to agree that all sounds quite solid, but I still think that all of its named pilots are really good and go well beyond the usefulness of the B-Wing. Nera can take APT with Extra Munitions, Chimps, and FCS, Ten Numb can barrel roll with Autoblasters at PS 10 in an x7 heavy meta, Keyan Farlander is Keyan Farlander, and Ibtisam can take Wired and Lando (actually not sure quite how good that last one is, but it seems like it could be surprisingly tanky).

In fact, Ten Numb can just stay PS 8 since Ryad and Vessery are the most common Defender pilots that I see in matches on Youtube, so that leaves room for Predator (or whatever your favorite EPT is) instead of Veteran Instincts.

Here's an idea, why not a cannon upgrade that ups the B-Wing's attack from 3 to 4?

Maybe the B-wing's problem (and to a certain extend, any 3 attack dice ship with cannon upgrade) is that the difference between their basic attack and the effect of a secondary weapon does not justify the points spent.
Cannons should be priced depending on your Primary weapon value. IMO, cannon costs are good for a ship that has a 2 dice primary (M3-A), but way too expensive for things such a B-wing, Firespray or Lambda Shuttle. These ships need a 3 points discount on cannon upgrades, so that HLC costs them 4 pts, and a choice of Ion Canon / Flechette / Tractor beam comes for free (those are really situational when you have 3 dice primary).

Maybe the B-wing's problem (and to a certain extend, any 3 attack dice ship with cannon upgrade) is that the difference between their basic attack and the effect of a secondary weapon does not justify the points spent.

Cannons should be priced depending on your Primary weapon value. IMO, cannon costs are good for a ship that has a 2 dice primary (M3-A), but way too expensive for things such a B-wing, Firespray or Lambda Shuttle. These ships need a 3 points discount on cannon upgrades, so that HLC costs them 4 pts, and a choice of Ion Canon / Flechette / Tractor beam comes for free (those are really situational when you have 3 dice primary).

I found the pricing formula for ship attack/agility/health in my thread HERE, so let me shed some light on exactly how much help a B-Wing needs.

First of all, a B-Wing's ship stats are worth 21pts. A Blue Squadron Pilot is worth 22, meaning you're paying exactly 1pt for PS2 and its upgrade bar (System slot is usually taxed at around half a point). Upgrading to Heavy Laser Cannon would put the price of its ship stats up to 28pts, and its official cost would be 29pts which means its still paying exactly 1pt for PS2 and its upgrade bar.

Any "buff" to the B-Wing Blue Squadron Pilot should be worth around half a point. Personally, I believe the biggest problem with B-Wings is the named pilots (which is a little outside the range of my formula). They feel really squishy for what you're paying for. I would suggest a buff similar to A-Wings or TIE-Interceptors that buffs the higher skill pilots.

Also note, almost all upgrades in the game are priced for best-case scenarios.

Also, Pre the ARC and the nerf, x3 U-Boats with plasma torps would eat B-Wings for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Yeah with crits not doing that much as there are better dials and all sorts of ways to get around (plus you get to choose the less punishing deck) total# of hitpoints is more than what type of hit points. If you look at the Arc-170 it is just a Y-wing with one more hull but today's meta a B-wing's 5 shields 3 hull is no better than a Y-wing's 3 shields and 5 hull. So Arc-170 is better than a B-wing overall.

I used to try and compute durability by using total hit points * (1+ shield%) This is durability not defense so green dice and tokens are not counted. But basic formula is (s+h)*(1+s/(s+h)) which simplifies into 2s+h=d. It works for the most part with TIE Fighter being 3d Scyk (w/o title) being 4 A-wings and HWK-290 being 6 and x-wing being 7 Y-wings being 11, B-wings being 13. Using this crude formula ARCs come out to 12 which clearly isn't the case. So the old formula 2s+h=d is more of 1.1s+h=d because face-up damage just doesn't matter. As I said before you get to select your own damage deck which is almost like picking your own damage card.

Kind of sad because I liked the idea of ships with different types of defense/durability from agility tanks to token tanks to shield tanks and maybe even hull tanks because each durability will have its strengths in resisting certain firepower and its vulnerabilities when facing certain types of firepower. But right now the only thing that matters is hitpoints and firing arcs. A B-wing is no tougher than a Y-wing.

Well, High shields is key to regen until we get Hull regen outside of Huge Ships (though that is a niche I'm sure people probably aren't keen on), but again, B-Wing lacks the slots for that. Probably why the 9 HP ARC leans toward low shields - it can take R2-D2. And since Plasma Torps are a thing, there's always a certain risk involved in high shield/low agi ships that if you run into somebody who can actually use torpedoes they can get free bonus damage on you.

There's great irony that part of what undoes the virtue of a B-Wing are the things it is probably most known for.

How about a title that allows you to flip your B wing 180 degrees after you perform a barrel roll, then receive a stress. This would fix that crappy 2K and would give the Higher PS pilots more unpredictability to justify the points cost

Maybe the B-wing's problem (and to a certain extend, any 3 attack dice ship with cannon upgrade) is that the difference between their basic attack and the effect of a secondary weapon does not justify the points spent.

Cannons should be priced depending on your Primary weapon value. IMO, cannon costs are good for a ship that has a 2 dice primary (M3-A), but way too expensive for things such a B-wing, Firespray or Lambda Shuttle. These ships need a 3 points discount on cannon upgrades, so that HLC costs them 4 pts, and a choice of Ion Canon / Flechette / Tractor beam comes for free (those are really situational when you have 3 dice primary).

A cool idea would have been the B having no primary weapon, but a huge discount on cannons, and able to pack different cannons.

The B-wing has some nice aces, but even before the current red-dice power creep they were consider a bit too expensive (if I remember correctly Ten Numb was calculated as being 2-3pts too much) and died too fast to focus fire. Thus mostly having big difficulties to get the invested points back.

Maybe the B-wing's problem (and to a certain extend, any 3 attack dice ship with cannon upgrade) is that the difference between their basic attack and the effect of a secondary weapon does not justify the points spent.

Cannons should be priced depending on your Primary weapon value. IMO, cannon costs are good for a ship that has a 2 dice primary (M3-A), but way too expensive for things such a B-wing, Firespray or Lambda Shuttle. These ships need a 3 points discount on cannon upgrades, so that HLC costs them 4 pts, and a choice of Ion Canon / Flechette / Tractor beam comes for free (those are really situational when you have 3 dice primary).

A cool idea would have been the B having no primary weapon, but a huge discount on cannons, and able to pack different cannons.

The B-wing has some nice aces, but even before the current red-dice power creep they were consider a bit too expensive (if I remember correctly Ten Numb was calculated as being 2-3pts too much) and died too fast to focus fire. Thus mostly having big difficulties to get the invested points back.

For the Vassal Custom Card League, I handle these two issues with separate cards. The first of which I posted upthread- the gyro cockpit card which buffs the stress-aces. The second card is the cannon/torpedo discount and extra cannon or-torpedo. The aim for the discount is to give the ship options, but anything "better" than the 3 die primary costs points.

Well, High shields is key to regen until we get Hull regen outside of Huge Ships (though that is a niche I'm sure people probably aren't keen on), but again, B-Wing lacks the slots for that. Probably why the 9 HP ARC leans toward low shields - it can take R2-D2. And since Plasma Torps are a thing, there's always a certain risk involved in high shield/low agi ships that if you run into somebody who can actually use torpedoes they can get free bonus damage on you.

There's great irony that part of what undoes the virtue of a B-Wing are the things it is probably most known for.

If only reinforced deflectors was not a large ship only modification.

How about a title that allows you to flip your B wing 180 degrees after you perform a barrel roll, then receive a stress. This would fix that crappy 2K and would give the Higher PS pilots more unpredictability to justify the points cost

Crappy 2k? I have had quite allot of players go "you can do that?" and thrown them off. Especially the time I killed a bro-bot with it.

Also lightening reflexes from the Khirahx fighter helps the aces do that.

It's great..... when you don't get blocked. And the lightning reflexes takes up the EPT and is a one time use card

It's great..... when you don't get blocked. And the lightning reflexes takes up the EPT and is a one time use card

2K is a nice knifefighter tool, however large bases just block it totally. And tgere are a lot of large bases nowadays.

The concept of lightning reflexes is cool, but it takes up the valuable EPT slot, costs 1pt, is one time use (apart from Tomax) and costs stress. That's imho one too much negative, as much as I like the idea.

See, it's when people say stuff like "Face up damage doesn't matter" that I get to take a relaxing break from caring about their opinion.

See, it's when people say stuff like "Face up damage doesn't matter" that I get to take a relaxing break from caring about their opinion.

Clearly with an attitude like that, you were going to be a great contribution to this discussion.

I think the point though is that without the ability to pick your crit, face up damage is still happenstance and comes from a deck you can pick the milder option. So When you have 3 Hull, 5 Shields and stripping shields is easy as balls, the fact that you get a face up damage is irrelevant. 3 hull still goes "pop". But something with more hitpoints total and more hit points in hull (like a 5 Hull 3 Shields, or the ARC which is 6 Hull 3 Shields) will last longer. Direct Hits or Explosions notwithstanding.

how about

"Gyro stabilisation system

title - 1pt

whilst you have 2 or less stress, you may perform red manoeuvres and barrel roll actions as normal

when you execute a red manoeuvre you may then rotate your ship 180"

Clearly with an attitude like that, you were going to be a great contribution to this discussion.

I think the point though is that without the ability to pick your crit, face up damage is still happenstance and comes from a deck you can pick the milder option. So When you have 3 Hull, 5 Shields and stripping shields is easy as balls, the fact that you get a face up damage is irrelevant. 3 hull still goes "pop". But something with more hitpoints total and more hit points in hull (like a 5 Hull 3 Shields, or the ARC which is 6 Hull 3 Shields) will last longer. Direct Hits or Explosions notwithstanding.

Well, yes. I have been contributing. A lot, actually. And I've largely been listening to what a lot of the people have been telling me, too. I mean yeah I still have my own opinions on it but I don't fly Rebels so they probably know more about it than I do.

Hmm... Also looks like the person I was talking about has edited their text quite a bit from the original. Oh well.

As to picking your crits? Weeeeellllll lately I've been running a lot of Maarek Stele, so I suppose I've got that covered. And as to "getting to basically pick your damage", that only applies sometimes. All the worst cards that an Imperial can draw are in both (damaged sensor array, direct hit, thrust control fire, console fire). I suppose I just get pissed off when I see people say stuff like "crits don't matter" because it ignites a bunch of old arguments, and seems to ignore the other perspective. So I suppose if the original statement had read a little differently it wouldn't have been such a thing to me. Like "After eating through 5 shields, face up damage doesn't matter" or something.

Anyway, back to the real discussion. Y'all have largely convinced me that the B needs some help. So here's my two cents.

Stabilizer Gyro- 1 pt

After you perform a barrel roll, you may assign one evade token to your ship

Since the problem everyone seems to have is the longevity of the ship against the way the game plays nowadays, this seems like a good way to help. However it avoids all the complications and wordiness that i've seen from many of the suggestions and takes things in a bit of a different direction from what I've seen so far here. It helps pretty much all the B-Pilots and generics, since they often find room for Advanced Sensors. The limited dial and pre-maneuver barrel roll can also lend themselves to flying that keeps close to obstacles, hopefully providing a further bonus in the way of obstruction, so intentionally flying towards an asteroid only to barrel roll out of the way, get your evade, and then take your move seems like it would be a good way to fly. With the free token, and FCS, chances are you're getting some major economy out of your turn, and any B-Wing with an EPT slot can token up with PTL like they were Soontir Fel (though admittedly without the agility).

Clearly with an attitude like that, you were going to be a great contribution to this discussion.

I think the point though is that without the ability to pick your crit, face up damage is still happenstance and comes from a deck you can pick the milder option. So When you have 3 Hull, 5 Shields and stripping shields is easy as balls, the fact that you get a face up damage is irrelevant. 3 hull still goes "pop". But something with more hitpoints total and more hit points in hull (like a 5 Hull 3 Shields, or the ARC which is 6 Hull 3 Shields) will last longer. Direct Hits or Explosions notwithstanding.

Well, yes. I have been contributing. A lot, actually. And I've largely been listening to what a lot of the people have been telling me, too. I mean yeah I still have my own opinions on it but I don't fly Rebels so they probably know more about it than I do.

Hmm... Also looks like the person I was talking about has edited their text quite a bit from the original. Oh well.

As to picking your crits? Weeeeellllll lately I've been running a lot of Maarek Stele, so I suppose I've got that covered. And as to "getting to basically pick your damage", that only applies sometimes. All the worst cards that an Imperial can draw are in both (damaged sensor array, direct hit, thrust control fire, console fire). I suppose I just get pissed off when I see people say stuff like "crits don't matter" because it ignites a bunch of old arguments, and seems to ignore the other perspective. So I suppose if the original statement had read a little differently it wouldn't have been such a thing to me. Like "After eating through 5 shields, face up damage doesn't matter" or something.

Anyway, back to the real discussion. Y'all have largely convinced me that the B needs some help. So here's my two cents.

Stabilizer Gyro- 1 pt

After you perform a barrel roll, you may assign one evade token to your ship

Since the problem everyone seems to have is the longevity of the ship against the way the game plays nowadays, this seems like a good way to help. However it avoids all the complications and wordiness that i've seen from many of the suggestions and takes things in a bit of a different direction from what I've seen so far here. It helps pretty much all the B-Pilots and generics, since they often find room for Advanced Sensors. The limited dial and pre-maneuver barrel roll can also lend themselves to flying that keeps close to obstacles, hopefully providing a further bonus in the way of obstruction, so intentionally flying towards an asteroid only to barrel roll out of the way, get your evade, and then take your move seems like it would be a good way to fly. With the free token, and FCS, chances are you're getting some major economy out of your turn, and any B-Wing with an EPT slot can token up with PTL like they were Soontir Fel (though admittedly without the agility).

And thats not even counting points spent on being a named ace, wchich could easilly drop you to TWO ships

I've always wanted to see B Wings used as their fluff role of anti-capital ship. It could be translated into X-Wing to include Large ships as well. Something along the lines of:

Semi-Active Targeting System

System Upgrade

Reduce the cost of torpedo upgrades on this ship by 3 points. Negate one evade result when attacking a ship with your Torpedo Secondary weapons.

You may only attack Large and Huge ships with Torpedo Weapons.

Cost 0

So, B Wings become great large ship hunters while not increasing their cost or effectiveness against small ships. Nera Equipped with Plasma Torpedoes becomes a very real counter to large ships, being able to outgun them for two rounds. This also isn't B-Wing only, so it can be released with other ships and is a very slight boost to E-Wings who don't run FCS.

I've always wanted to see B Wings used as their fluff role of anti-capital ship. It could be translated into X-Wing to include Large ships as well. Something along the lines of:

Semi-Active Targeting System

System Upgrade

Reduce the cost of torpedo upgrades on this ship by 3 points. Negate one evade result when attacking a ship with your Torpedo Secondary weapons.

You may only attack Large and Huge ships with Torpedo Weapons.

Cost 0

So, B Wings become great large ship hunters while not increasing their cost or effectiveness against small ships. Nera Equipped with Plasma Torpedoes becomes a very real counter to large ships, being able to outgun them for two rounds. This also isn't B-Wing only, so it can be released with other ships and is a very slight boost to E-Wings who don't run FCS.

I to also have this wish for anti-capital cost effiecent B-wings, but from the cannon side of things:

Integrated Cannons (0 points)

Reduce cost of all cannon upgrades by 3(to a minimum of 0). You gain an additional cannon slot. You may perform two secondary weapon attacks with cannons instead of your primary weapon attack as long as the original cost of one of your cannon upgrades is 3 points or less.

I've always wanted to see B Wings used as their fluff role of anti-capital ship. It could be translated into X-Wing to include Large ships as well. Something along the lines of:

Semi-Active Targeting System

System Upgrade

Reduce the cost of torpedo upgrades on this ship by 3 points. Negate one evade result when attacking a ship with your Torpedo Secondary weapons.

You may only attack Large and Huge ships with Torpedo Weapons.

Cost 0

So, B Wings become great large ship hunters while not increasing their cost or effectiveness against small ships. Nera Equipped with Plasma Torpedoes becomes a very real counter to large ships, being able to outgun them for two rounds. This also isn't B-Wing only, so it can be released with other ships and is a very slight boost to E-Wings who don't run FCS.

I to also have this wish for anti-capital cost effiecent B-wings, but from the cannon side of things:

Integrated Cannons (0 points)

Reduce cost of all cannon upgrades by 3(to a minimum of 0). You gain an additional cannon slot. You may perform two secondary weapon attacks with cannons instead of your primary weapon attack as long as the original cost of one of your cannon upgrades is 3 points or less.

You do not understand what you are talking about. A blue squadron with a 3 point discounted HLC and FCS is already as efficient as an x7 defender. I asked Major Juggler. That part is good. Throwing on a free ion first tap to strip tokens AND guarantee the FCS TL on the HLC is ridiculus and pure power creep.

I've always wanted to see B Wings used as their fluff role of anti-capital ship. It could be translated into X-Wing to include Large ships as well. Something along the lines of:

Semi-Active Targeting System

System Upgrade

Reduce the cost of torpedo upgrades on this ship by 3 points. Negate one evade result when attacking a ship with your Torpedo Secondary weapons.

You may only attack Large and Huge ships with Torpedo Weapons.

Cost 0

So, B Wings become great large ship hunters while not increasing their cost or effectiveness against small ships. Nera Equipped with Plasma Torpedoes becomes a very real counter to large ships, being able to outgun them for two rounds. This also isn't B-Wing only, so it can be released with other ships and is a very slight boost to E-Wings who don't run FCS.

I to also have this wish for anti-capital cost effiecent B-wings, but from the cannon side of things:

Integrated Cannons (0 points)

Reduce cost of all cannon upgrades by 3(to a minimum of 0). You gain an additional cannon slot. You may perform two secondary weapon attacks with cannons instead of your primary weapon attack as long as the original cost of one of your cannon upgrades is 3 points or less.

You do not understand what you are talking about. A blue squadron with a 3 point discounted HLC and FCS is already as efficient as an x7 defender. I asked Major Juggler. That part is good. Throwing on a free ion first tap to strip tokens AND guarantee the FCS TL on the HLC is ridiculus and pure power creep.

Fundamentally, I agree with you. However, I want to be clear that I do not think B Wings should be the cream of the crop on jousting efficiency. Give them a different role and let the X wings be the more efficient jousters, hence why i suggested the new system that really is just a hit against bloated big ships.

Also, after thinking a bit more about it Punishers benefit from this in a big way. SATS combined with Long Range Scanners is a fantastic combination that puts out a big no-fly zone for enemy large ships.

"Synchronised fire -1pt

System upgrade

After you perform a secondary weapon attack you may remove one evade or focus token from the defender - if the defender has no focus or evade tokens you may remove one shield token from the defender"

Requires you to have a secondary weapon, competes with fcs and adv sensors and can be taken by other ships as well, is good against token stack, but only if there are shields remaining

"Synchronised fire -1pt

System upgrade

After you perform a secondary weapon attack you may remove one evade or focus token from the defender - if the defender has no focus or evade tokens you may remove one shield token from the defender"

Requires you to have a secondary weapon, competes with fcs and adv sensors and can be taken by other ships as well, is good against token stack, but only if there are shields remaining

I think this is a little more thematic.

When attacking roll one less die. Treat the 1st uncancled hit at 2 hits. EPT 1 point.

"Synchronised fire -1pt

System upgrade

After you perform a secondary weapon attack you may remove one evade or focus token from the defender - if the defender has no focus or evade tokens you may remove one shield token from the defender"

Requires you to have a secondary weapon, competes with fcs and adv sensors and can be taken by other ships as well, is good against token stack, but only if there are shields remaining

I think this is a little more thematic.

When attacking roll one less die. Treat the 1st uncancled hit at 2 hits. EPT 1 point.

And this is helping the B-wing how exactly? Being an EPT, no generic can take it, leaving them in the dust. The named pilots won't want it since it will in fact reduce their damage output since it's far to easy to mitigate two hits (X/7 defenders will laugh at this). Also it would eat their EPT slot which can be used for better purposes.

I would probably change the upgrade a bit though.

Firing synchronizer

B-wing only

System upgrade, 1 point

"You must equip a cannon upgrade card paying squad points as normal. After you perform an attack you may remove one evade or focus token from the defender. If the defender has no focus or evade tokens you may remove one shield token from the defender."