No sympathy, no advice.

You just won in category "Worst post of the year - least essential in the topic"

I stand by it.

The OP is basically saying 'I'm running this lis because it's the best, but I'm losing. Fix it for me'.

Fly something different? Don't just rely on having the best ship in the game.

HA, now you had given advice. A good one actually, Everyone expects defenders and builds list to counter them. If you don't want to get countered, you need to fly something which is not the most common mainstream list in the known galaxy.

Basically true. The scum lists that OP is losing against are basically the lists built specifically to beat Defenders.

To be fair, Mindlinked Rau is a tough cookie whoever he is facing. You can change your build but I think he is going to become a regular part of the Scum meta, even if Defenders went away for some reason. With Mindlink, he rivals Fel for toughness and has an extra hull point to boot. It is only the lack of Palp that will probably stop him ever reaching the Baron's level of ubiquity.

Lack of Evade action is pretty huge.

The Jump dial is too good, but really, this is the only rediculously broken thing in Scumville....

Other than that, it's planning, skill, and the dice.

It only works on two ships/builds. For Dengaroo, without Manaroo's support Zuckuss is not that useful. For Party Buses, they simply doesn't care about the stress. If it was truly that broken, you'd see more ships using him.

It only works in two instances where it's completely broken (and criminally undercosted).

Do we have to have this discussion again?

Its broken in Dengaroo, its strong but balanced on the party bus. Nuance is dead, is it?

How is a 1-point crew card that halves the effectiveness of a core game mechanic "strong but balanced"? For 1 point I'll give you strong, but not balanced.

The Jump dial is too good, but really, this is the only rediculously broken thing in Scumville....

Other than that, it's planning, skill, and the dice.

It only works on two ships/builds. For Dengaroo, without Manaroo's support Zuckuss is not that useful. For Party Buses, they simply doesn't care about the stress. If it was truly that broken, you'd see more ships using him.

It only works in two instances where it's completely broken (and criminally undercosted).

Do we have to have this discussion again?

Its broken in Dengaroo, its strong but balanced on the party bus. Nuance is dead, is it?

^ Breaking the quote-train.

Nothing is unbeatable, even the nerfed Phantom or nerfed Torp Scout - would you say those weren't broken and all the fuss and FAQs were for nothing?

How is a 1-point crew card that halves the effectiveness of a core game mechanic "strong but balanced"? For 1 point I'll give you strong, but not balanced.

It is balanced, because the ships that are hurt the most by this are also those best equiped to outmanouver a YV-666 with a milion stress tokens. The offense also goes down a lot under these stress tokens if Dengar is used. And K4 is completely useless when the one ships gets to (easily) arcdodge. Dice are not a mechanic, they are stats. Sacrificing mobility and attack power to weaken an opponent stat is entirely reasonable and far from unheard of. Zuckuss is extremely similar to another 1 point upgrade, Veteran Instincts. If Han solo has VI you can't beat him with Whisper consistently, maybe even at all. If Han has VI and goes up against anything PS8- he wasted a slot and a point. Zuckuss versus Decimators and Ghosts (and to a lesser extend any ship with 1-2 green dice)? Same story.

Now Dengaroo introduces two things that mess with this balance: Full mods, so the attack damage isn't impaired at all, and a turret, so nobody can avoid it. Also a dial that frankly shouldn't have been made that way, needed way more red on the weak side to really give it some character and balance. FFG sadly has a history of giving the freighters way too great dials. The VCX is a step into the right direction at least.

I think the best advice is: practice more and fly better. It may sound harsh, but if you're flying a netlist and you have trouble against certain lists, practise until you can beat them, or find something that suits your playingstyle better. Personally I think the main weakness of people who pick up defenders because they want to jump on the Defender bandwagon that's driving around the meta right now, is the predictabiliy. There's more on a dial than just 3 speed maneuvres and K-turns.

There is so much truth to this. When a list is identified as being the strongest (or at least one of a couple of lists) in the game you need to be prepared for other players tailoring their lists to give them the best chance they can against yours. The solution to a bad matchup is the same for the strongest lists as it is for the more average, practice - trying different opening moves, rock placements and target priorities.

By all means listen to the ideas of this thread but you won't get anywhere near as much out of it as putting the hours in with the list and learning from the losses.

The Jump dial is too good, but really, this is the only rediculously broken thing in Scumville....

Other than that, it's planning, skill, and the dice.

It only works on two ships/builds. For Dengaroo, without Manaroo's support Zuckuss is not that useful. For Party Buses, they simply doesn't care about the stress. If it was truly that broken, you'd see more ships using him.

The only reason you don't see all Scum ships with crew slots using Zuckuss is that some actually want to use their Actions. Everyone knows Suckuss makes the Party Bus a party and without him, it would be Waffle House at 2:00 AM on a Tuesday morning. Suckuss is is a ****-load of power for one point and a single crew slot. He is waaaayyyy better at that cost than Palp at his. Mathematically, he equal to almost a full damage point per round; and is better than getting an extra red dice; and can be used multiple times per round. I know the FFG designers were taking a mental break while pushing unchecked creativity on the Scum side of Wave 8; they had to be, FAQs have proven that. And please let's not get me started on the Jumpmaster design during that Wave's setup. The dial is fantastic for a freighter and cheep as **** as an ordinance, EPT boat. As I ponder that end of Wave 8 I can't help but think they were so wanting to push sales in the third faction and wanting to find a way to temper the Palp-Ace builds that were winning the World Championships year after year.

But they screwed up on the Scummy side of things on those three (J's dial, J's cheap EPT base, Zuckuss cost).....period.

....where's my tea?

Palp aces/defenders deserve zuckuss. Bring the beef if you dont want to be bothered.

Palp aces/defenders deserve zuckuss. Bring the beef if you dont want to be bothered.

I don't think Palp Aces deserve Zuckuss - there is an egregious amount of anti-Fel tech out now, outside of Zuckuss.

And the other "Aces" can't keep up with the power curve.

Defenders are right at the edge of the that curve, which FFG will continue to push.

Defenders were also absent from the final table at 2016 Worlds - but you know what won that game before turn four? You guessed it!

No sympathy, no advice.

You just won in category "Worst post of the year - least essential in the topic"

I stand by it.

The OP is basically saying 'I'm running this lis because it's the best, but I'm losing. Fix it for me'.

Fly something different? Don't just rely on having the best ship in the game.

HA, now you had given advice. A good one actually, Everyone expects defenders and builds list to counter them. If you don't want to get countered, you need to fly something which is not the most common mainstream list in the known galaxy.

****, you got me...

OP, you are flying public enemy #1. Every list is built to destroy yours and deal with others.

The way to deal with Party Bossk, is get behind him asap. This includes bumping him so he cannot fire at you, and you are just taking a single shot from Asajj (or whoever his wingmate is) for that round, then kturn/sloop/slam passed him. With the wide YV arc, and zuckuss, damage is inevitable. Just do it on your terms at your range. If he has Homing Missiles get range 1 asap if you dont think you can get out of arc. If he has clusters, take a range 3 shot, then fly in with a 5 straight and bump. Kturn next round. If you are range 2, he i firing a missile, and with a 5/6 PS defender, you move first next round and cant kturn behind him. Dont let that happen.

Any time Party Bossk gets a shot, damage will probably ensue, so take him out first. Always. A 1 health defender is still a force to reckon with, with Palps alive, as long as Zuckuss crew is off the table.

Fly em well, good luck.

fryxharry, I fly commonwealth and have had trouble with Dengeroo. It sounds like you haven't so I'm curious: what is your strategy with Dengeroo? Thx.

Don't shoot inside Dengar's arc. Your ships are VERY good against one attack as you're backed by Focus/Evade/Palp but the second one will hurt.

Fire from outside his arc, try to block his sloop, be aggressive and get the shuttle's dice into the fray. It's a matchup that's definitely favour of the Defenders unless you make Dengar more powerful than he needs to be.

So you suggest going after Dengar first then worrying about Manaroo later (or if at all)? Thx.

Palp aces/defenders deserve zuckuss. Bring the beef if you dont want to be bothered.

I don't think Palp Aces deserve Zuckuss - there is an egregious amount of anti-Fel tech out now, outside of Zuckuss.

And the other "Aces" can't keep up with the power curve.

Defenders are right at the edge of the that curve, which FFG will continue to push.

Defenders were also absent from the final table at 2016 Worlds - but you know what won that game before turn four? You guessed it!

This is what I've been scratching my head over. I like my defenders, but if they're so op'd, why do we not see so many of them in the top tier like the former "wolf pack".

I think too many people have gotten sucked into the mindset of having to craft some mystical, elusive, all-powerful squad. Fly what you like, and get good with it. I think that's the aim of FFG (along with making $$ ).

Look at Worlds 2016, 4 out of the top 16 were palp defenders, and none of those made it to the final 4. And I'm sure they were good players, but it's definitely not the uber-crap-storm so many seem to be making it out to be. Only 2 rebel squads and they were both in the final 4.

So you suggest going after Dengar first then worrying about Manaroo later (or if at all)? Thx.

Here's one take.

http://dockingbay416.com/diedengaroodie/

Palp aces/defenders deserve zuckuss. Bring the beef if you dont want to be bothered.

I don't think Palp Aces deserve Zuckuss - there is an egregious amount of anti-Fel tech out now, outside of Zuckuss.

And the other "Aces" can't keep up with the power curve.

Defenders are right at the edge of the that curve, which FFG will continue to push.

Defenders were also absent from the final table at 2016 Worlds - but you know what won that game before turn four? You guessed it!

This is what I've been scratching my head over. I like my defenders, but if they're so op'd, why do we not see so many of them in the top tier like the former "wolf pack".

easier to blame X for your troubles rather than getting gud

though there is a mathematical basis to calling x7 defenders power creep ito raw dice trading, courtesy of the good Major (Juggler) , so it's not like it's a baseless thing

in terms of intra-faction balance especially, the empire is basically x7 or bust at this point ito reliability. Crackswarm has all but disappeared, we probably won't be seeing strikers at all (unless Hux takes off), and palp aces are far more easily countered by the anti-green dice tech that people have been bringing for them etc.

So you suggest going after Dengar first then worrying about Manaroo later (or if at all)? Thx.

So you suggest going after Dengar first then worrying about Manaroo later (or if at all)? Thx.

Depends on the build. If they have a painbot, I tend to go after the other ship first.

Dengar with painbot: burn down Manny and then do your math to see if you have a better chance trying to kill Dengar or half-kill Dengar, or just stay alive.

Manny with painbot+Gonk: you could spend all your resources taking that ship down. Suck up the Dengar shots and burn him down, then see above re: math.

The problem with going after Manaroo first is that if it takes too long, she boosts away with a few hull and then Dengar is in your face and you've wasted a whole lot of shots on not killing a ship. Once Dengar gets stressed (probably turn 1 or 2 of combat vs Defenders), he's not going anywhere. keep shooting until he's dead.

fryxharry, I fly commonwealth and have had trouble with Dengeroo. It sounds like you haven't so I'm curious: what is your strategy with Dengeroo? Thx.

The others have covered it mostly, but since you addressed me directly here's how I did it:

I never shot Denger when I was in his arc.

That's really all there is to it. If Dengar only gets one shot per turn, there's almost no way he's doing any damage to a palp supported defender. You can easily go for him first. Try to engage him somewhere your defenders have a nice lane or two for k-turning, then make sure your ships are placed in a way that he can't have more than one of them in arc at any given moment. Now shoot him with the ships he doesn't have and use palp and you token stack for defense against his single attack. He's really at a huge disadvantage in this situation. When Dengar is gone, you can engage Manaroo or just wait for the time to run out. Her offense is way too cr*ppy to land hits on a defender, the Dengaroo player might as well just give up after losing Dengar.

I tried going after Manaroo first, but it's hard to catch her and you run the risk of Dengar going after palp and Manaroo surviving with a couple of hull left.

HA, now you had given advice. A good one actually, Everyone expects defenders and builds list to counter them. If you don't want to get countered, you need to fly something which is not the most common mainstream list in the known galaxy.

Also, when building defender lists, there are a couple of clear best builds. Vess with Juke and Ryad with MK2 and PTL are the two best defenders, period. Taking anything else is using worse ships for meta considerations. Commonwealth defenders is not a netlist imho, because it's such a natural fit everyone will eventually come up with if he wants to run two defenders with palp.

I'll try running a delta instead of palp, maybe I'll like that better. Two deltas + Whisper is another list I'd like to try, but I don't have a lot of experience with whisper and I feel like she's not in a good meta spot right now.

fryxharry, I fly commonwealth and have had trouble with Dengeroo. It sounds like you haven't so I'm curious: what is your strategy with Dengeroo? Thx.

So as an imperial player you're kind of stuck to playing defenders.