* All things are subject to change.

Being their first CCG we have no idea, and right now, neither do they, how they will handle this. Remember they are a for profit company and are legally obligated to make money for their share holders. If this means they have a product in high demand and they can make more money buy selling more units, they will do so. However the manufacturing of this game is very hard, for some reason, so it takes a long time. If they grossly under estimated demand, they will most likely do another print run. However it may not be until late summer, early fall until the next print run shows up.

The only real danger a CCG faces is over printing, a la Fallen Empires. Right now FFG isn't in danger of over printing. It is SOP now for CCGs manufacturers to do second print runs on very popular products but smaller print runs on everything to not get into the Fallen Empires trap.

* All things are subject to change.

Being their first CCG we have no idea, and right now, neither do they, how they will handle this. Remember they are a for profit company and are legally obligated to make money for their share holders. If this means they have a product in high demand and they can make more money buy selling more units, they will do so. However the manufacturing of this game is very hard, for some reason, so it takes a long time. If they grossly under estimated demand, they will most likely do another print run. However it may not be until late summer, early fall until the next print run shows up.

The only real danger a CCG faces is over printing, a la Fallen Empires. Right now FFG isn't in danger of over printing. It is SOP now for CCGs manufacturers to do second print runs on very popular products but smaller print runs on everything to not get into the Fallen Empires trap.

I don't think FFG is a publicly traded company. Also, I'm not aware of any legal obligation to make money for shareholders...

FFG is owned by Asmodee which is owned by Eurozeo which is owned by Sofina which is owned by etc.... You can buy into those private equity companies and yes, Asmodee is legally obligated to act in a matter in which its investors will make money from their investment.

Miniature Market is saying their preorders will be delivered sometime in February or March. So they seem to think they will be getting another shipment after the 4th one.

FFG is owned by Asmodee which is owned by Eurozeo which is owned by Sofina which is owned by etc.... You can buy into those private equity companies and yes, Asmodee is legally obligated to act in a matter in which its investors will make money from their investment.

Miniature Market is saying their preorders will be delivered sometime in February or March. So they seem to think they will be getting another shipment after the 4th one.

There is no legal obligation for American companies to make money for their investors. That just isn't true.

if the product don't become easyer to obtain in the future the game willl not make it.

FFG is owned by Asmodee which is owned by Eurozeo which is owned by Sofina which is owned by etc.... You can buy into those private equity companies and yes, Asmodee is legally obligated to act in a matter in which its investors will make money from their investment.

Miniature Market is saying their preorders will be delivered sometime in February or March. So they seem to think they will be getting another shipment after the 4th one.

There is no legal obligation for American companies to make money for their investors. That just isn't true.

If you invested in a company and the people running that company used that money to pay themselves very well or donated that money to their wife's non-profit instead of using that money to make you money off your investment, you can sue or press charges. It isn't necessarily a criminal act all the time, although fraud is a felony and if they told the investor their money was going to be used to make money in good faith in a commercial enterprise and that didn't happen it is fraud. In any case, it can be civilly liable.

Generally speaking, when you invest money, the company is then legally obligated to try to make money off the money you invested. There are times when an investor puts money into a commercial enterprise without the written protects necessary to protect their money. Those investors generally don't have money for very long.

Rest assured those private equity firms that actually own FFG and most diffidently Disney have those protections in place.

Again, there are those good faith clauses that basically state they must try but failure is an option. No one goes to jail for failing to make money but they do for misspending investment money. I suggest you google Bernie Madoff if you are curious to what happened to people who don't in good faith try to make money for their investors and instead pay themselves very well.

I would expect Awakenings to remain in print for a long time. This is the set with Vader, Luke, Han and Leia. Not everyone who is going to play this game is playing yet and when new players come in they are going to want to buy booster packs from Awakenings. FFG are not idiots, they will print as long as there is demand.

FFG is owned by Asmodee which is owned by Eurozeo which is owned by Sofina which is owned by etc.... You can buy into those private equity companies and yes, Asmodee is legally obligated to act in a matter in which its investors will make money from their investment.

Miniature Market is saying their preorders will be delivered sometime in February or March. So they seem to think they will be getting another shipment after the 4th one.

There is no legal obligation for American companies to make money for their investors. That just isn't true.

If you invested in a company and the people running that company used that money to pay themselves very well or donated that money to their wife's non-profit instead of using that money to make you money off your investment, you can sue or press charges. It isn't necessarily a criminal act all the time, although fraud is a felony and if they told the investor their money was going to be used to make money in good faith in a commercial enterprise and that didn't happen it is fraud. In any case, it can be civilly liable.

Generally speaking, when you invest money, the company is then legally obligated to try to make money off the money you invested. There are times when an investor puts money into a commercial enterprise without the written protects necessary to protect their money. Those investors generally don't have money for very long.

Rest assured those private equity firms that actually own FFG and most diffidently Disney have those protections in place.

Again, there are those good faith clauses that basically state they must try but failure is an option. No one goes to jail for failing to make money but they do for misspending investment money. I suggest you google Bernie Madoff if you are curious to what happened to people who don't in good faith try to make money for their investors and instead pay themselves very well.

Litterally none if this is applicable to this situation.

You stated that companies are legally obligated to turn a profit for its investors. That isn't accurate. They are legally obligated not to defraud people, but there is a galaxy between that and just not making money. And seriously what's the point if referencing Madoff? His crimes aren't even remotely relatable to FFG not coming out guns a blazing on a new release.

I would expect Awakenings to remain in print for a long time. This is the set with Vader, Luke, Han and Leia. Not everyone who is going to play this game is playing yet and when new players come in they are going to want to buy booster packs from Awakenings. FFG are not idiots, they will print as long as there is demand.

They honestly probably won't. That isn't how CCGs work. Sets do not stay in print indefinitely. You set a time line for a sets print life, you continue to reprint through that timeline, and at the end you do one final run and that's it for that set. Whatever is out there is out there and when it dries up it dries up. You simply hope you've thrown enough out there to create a secondary market capable of servicing new players that may still want old stuff or enough new stuff that they can opt to not use the older harder to get stuff. That's how the successful CCGs have worked.

There is a limit to the amount of stuff you can get produced, and a year from now you aren't going to devote valuable production time from an upcoming set to print more of a set from a year ago. Store won't want to stock it either. Part of the benefit of a CCG is that stores only need to bother with the last 2 or so expansion's as far as shelf space.

Litterally none if this is applicable to this situation.

You stated that companies are legally obligated to turn a profit for its investors. That isn't accurate. They are legally obligated not to defraud people, but there is a galaxy between that and just not making money. And seriously what's the point if referencing Madoff? His crimes aren't even remotely relatable to FFG not coming out guns a blazing on a new release.

I simply responded to someone who didn't understand how investing worked. It did get off topic a bit but to address this issue and why it is relevant. Not defrauding means they are legally obligated to act in a matter which will make their investors money. This doesn't mean they must be successful but they must act in good faith. Madoff did not, hence the example of what happens when investments are not handle in a manner which has the potential to make the investors money.

The relevance is simple, if FFG can make more money by printing more, then they must unless they can some how justify there is more money to be made by not printing more. The collectable aspect of the game means a print run larger than demand is damaging to the product over all, so that justification can be made. However, they are clearly not at that point, in fact, they are at the point in which scarce supply hurts this product going forward. The business decision is to print more to meet demand.

BTW, stores LOVE product that sales out the day they stock it. They would have zero issue at this point stocking more Awakening, even if it doesn't show up for many months. Speculators that bought a bunch of boxes and are sitting on them will HATE the second printing. However, FFG is not obligated in any way to make money for customers who bought boxes as an investment. They are obligated to make their investors money. This is the point and exactly why a second print one is coming.

If you bought a bunch of boxes and horded them thinking you right now have the second coming of Magic Beta you are sadly mistaken. You will see small shipments throughout the year for all of Destiny's releases until they solve their manufacturing problems and can get get larger print runs done in a timely manner. This is a new game with unknowable demand and manufacturing challenges. Now that they have some numbers on the demand of this game they can ramp up production to meet demand.

Awakenings will go out of print eventually. FFG designs power creep into their games to get people to buy the next best thing. No one should be thinking there is a power nine in this set or that it will reach the value of Magic Beta. However the boxes are scarce right now, so there are people selling them on ebay for $175 plus. Right now there is a window to make money reselling. This is more similar to the Nintendo Wii when it first came out. Those prices aren't sustainable for the short term although they may come back up to that point in the long term.

Let's say (hypothetically) FFG's rotation policy is 2 years - i.e any given set is 'legal' for 2 years - then surely each set will stay in print for the duration of it's legality?

Let's say (hypothetically) FFG's rotation policy is 2 years - i.e any given set is 'legal' for 2 years - then surely each set will stay in print for the duration of it's legality?

And honestly, you don't want sets in print that long.

Let's say (hypothetically) FFG's rotation policy is 2 years - i.e any given set is 'legal' for 2 years - then surely each set will stay in print for the duration of it's legality?

Not if FFG follows industry standard on the subject. MtG sets go out of print a year-ish prior to being rotated out of Standard. Dice Master has no rotation that I'm aware of, and it has a lot of OOP sets.

And honestly, you don't want sets in print that long.

Everything I've read on the subject suggests that any given MtG set stays in print for the duration of its standard legality.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-corporations-obligations-to-shareholders/corporations-dont-have-to-maximize-profits

Ok, this is how this works. If you are a sole proprietorship with no debt and no investment deals of any kind you can do with your property as you like. However, the second you take a bank loan or VC money to get the business going, those deals have clauses in them that you are to act in a manner to make a profit so you can pay back debt or to get the investor a return on their investment. Acting in a manner to make a profit doesn't mean success nor does it mean doing everything humanly possible to maximize profits. It simply means you can't take other peoples money, tell them you plan to do one thing that will get them their money back and then turn around and do something else that causes them to lose all their money. That is fraud and it is illegal. So no, you can't take a big bank business loan and run off on an expensive vacation. You have to follow the approved business plan or at least engage in activities along those lines that have a reasonable chance of making a profit so there are funds to pay back the bank.

So yes, the de facto state of pretty much all these big companies, since they have investment agreements and/or debt is they must act in a manner to make profit so they can return that money. When you buy stock from etrade, you won't get one of those deals. However many big share holders will buy stock directly from a company in a separate share holder deal with all kinds of clauses including one that states the company has to use that money to attempt to make a profit. This is why companies have a huge amount of paper work, meeting minutes and HR departments, so there is a paper trail from which they can justify and report their actions to investors and debt holders.

So when Asmodee gets bought out by a private investment firm that had to raise money from loans and investors for the buyout, their majority share of the board is legally obligated to tell the company to act in a manner to make a profit so they have funds to pay back those loans and make money for their investors. They don't have to maximize profits. To do that, they probably have to get into another line of business which is far more profitable, which is as silly as is this thread.

So yes, more printing will be done because there is profit to be made and not doing so would most likely constituent corporate waste, which is a whole other issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-corporations-obligations-to-shareholders/corporations-dont-have-to-maximize-profits

Ok, this is how this works. If you are a sole proprietorship with no debt and no investment deals of any kind you can do with your property as you like. However, the second you take a bank loan or VC money to get the business going, those deals have clauses in them that you are to act in a manner to make a profit so you can pay back debt or to get the investor a return on their investment. Acting in a manner to make a profit doesn't mean success nor does it mean doing everything humanly possible to maximize profits. It simply means you can't take other peoples money, tell them you plan to do one thing that will get them their money back and then turn around and do something else that causes them to lose all their money. That is fraud and it is illegal. So no, you can't take a big bank business loan and run off on an expensive vacation. You have to follow the approved business plan or at least engage in activities along those lines that have a reasonable chance of making a profit so there are funds to pay back the bank.

So yes, the de facto state of pretty much all these big companies, since they have investment agreements and/or debt is they must act in a manner to make profit so they can return that money. When you buy stock from etrade, you won't get one of those deals. However many big share holders will buy stock directly from a company in a separate share holder deal with all kinds of clauses including one that states the company has to use that money to attempt to make a profit. This is why companies have a huge amount of paper work, meeting minutes and HR departments, so there is a paper trail from which they can justify and report their actions to investors and debt holders.

So when Asmodee gets bought out by a private investment firm that had to raise money from loans and investors for the buyout, their majority share of the board is legally obligated to tell the company to act in a manner to make a profit so they have funds to pay back those loans and make money for their investors. They don't have to maximize profits. To do that, they probably have to get into another line of business which is far more profitable, which is as silly as is this thread.

So yes, more printing will be done because there is profit to be made and not doing so would most likely constituent corporate waste, which is a whole other issue.

So we agree that they are not legally obligated to make money, they are just not able to commit fraud. Got it.

Honestly, I don't think anyone knows what will happen with the printing of this game. However, the demand is way too big compared to the supply, even more than the normal CCG, so I would be surprised if they would stop the printing so early. Even if they did, they'll more than likely revisit Awakenings. For anyone who grew up in Seattle area you saw this happen early on with MtG. The demand was bigger than they could meet and had to keep reprinting (Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, and then Revised) to keep engaging new players or else the game would have died from over scarcity and frustration. It took MtG years to figure out a release schedule that worked for them and kept the collectibility alive. From last I remember they still have some of those cards in their annual Core Set.

I just don't see how the game can continue to grow if you lock off core characters like Luke, Vader, Leia, and Han or famous vehicles like the Millennium Falcon. I just got into this game and was lucky enough to get Luke & Kylo's Lightsaber in my first two boosters... I most likely would sell all my cards/dice at the inflated secondary market prices if my only chance was to pay $30+ for one of these core characters. There's still a lot of people out there who would like to get into the game and I don't see Rogue One characters enticing people to start collecting. There was a point MtG almost died because all the good cards were kept out of reprints and the printing got cheap so no one wanted those cards (Fallen Empires wasn't just an overprint, it was a weak set that had no demand as well). They learned their lesson quick and have a good balance now.

So hopefully they open up a new place to manufacture their dice and can grow the game. The way they print them is insane and cool, but must be a big reason for their manufacturing difficulties. But it's going to be hard to keep the game popular enough with how small the printing runs are. From what I've read FFG have big plans for the game, so they'll have to ramp up production at some point or else this is going to be a small cult game.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-corporations-obligations-to-shareholders/corporations-dont-have-to-maximize-profits

Ok, this is how this works. If you are a sole proprietorship with no debt and no investment deals of any kind you can do with your property as you like. However, the second you take a bank loan or VC money to get the business going, those deals have clauses in them that you are to act in a manner to make a profit so you can pay back debt or to get the investor a return on their investment. Acting in a manner to make a profit doesn't mean success nor does it mean doing everything humanly possible to maximize profits. It simply means you can't take other peoples money, tell them you plan to do one thing that will get them their money back and then turn around and do something else that causes them to lose all their money. That is fraud and it is illegal. So no, you can't take a big bank business loan and run off on an expensive vacation. You have to follow the approved business plan or at least engage in activities along those lines that have a reasonable chance of making a profit so there are funds to pay back the bank.

So yes, the de facto state of pretty much all these big companies, since they have investment agreements and/or debt is they must act in a manner to make profit so they can return that money. When you buy stock from etrade, you won't get one of those deals. However many big share holders will buy stock directly from a company in a separate share holder deal with all kinds of clauses including one that states the company has to use that money to attempt to make a profit. This is why companies have a huge amount of paper work, meeting minutes and HR departments, so there is a paper trail from which they can justify and report their actions to investors and debt holders.

So when Asmodee gets bought out by a private investment firm that had to raise money from loans and investors for the buyout, their majority share of the board is legally obligated to tell the company to act in a manner to make a profit so they have funds to pay back those loans and make money for their investors. They don't have to maximize profits. To do that, they probably have to get into another line of business which is far more profitable, which is as silly as is this thread.

So yes, more printing will be done because there is profit to be made and not doing so would most likely constituent corporate waste, which is a whole other issue.

So we agree that they are not legally obligated to make money, they are just not able to commit fraud. Got it.

Exactly, if they are not acting in a matter to make a profit, they are committing a crime, and anyone can commit fraud, some even get away with it.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/04/16/what-are-corporations-obligations-to-shareholders/corporations-dont-have-to-maximize-profits

Ok, this is how this works. If you are a sole proprietorship with no debt and no investment deals of any kind you can do with your property as you like. However, the second you take a bank loan or VC money to get the business going, those deals have clauses in them that you are to act in a manner to make a profit so you can pay back debt or to get the investor a return on their investment. Acting in a manner to make a profit doesn't mean success nor does it mean doing everything humanly possible to maximize profits. It simply means you can't take other peoples money, tell them you plan to do one thing that will get them their money back and then turn around and do something else that causes them to lose all their money. That is fraud and it is illegal. So no, you can't take a big bank business loan and run off on an expensive vacation. You have to follow the approved business plan or at least engage in activities along those lines that have a reasonable chance of making a profit so there are funds to pay back the bank.

So yes, the de facto state of pretty much all these big companies, since they have investment agreements and/or debt is they must act in a manner to make profit so they can return that money. When you buy stock from etrade, you won't get one of those deals. However many big share holders will buy stock directly from a company in a separate share holder deal with all kinds of clauses including one that states the company has to use that money to attempt to make a profit. This is why companies have a huge amount of paper work, meeting minutes and HR departments, so there is a paper trail from which they can justify and report their actions to investors and debt holders.

So when Asmodee gets bought out by a private investment firm that had to raise money from loans and investors for the buyout, their majority share of the board is legally obligated to tell the company to act in a manner to make a profit so they have funds to pay back those loans and make money for their investors. They don't have to maximize profits. To do that, they probably have to get into another line of business which is far more profitable, which is as silly as is this thread.

So yes, more printing will be done because there is profit to be made and not doing so would most likely constituent corporate waste, which is a whole other issue.

So we agree that they are not legally obligated to make money, they are just not able to commit fraud. Got it.

Exactly, if they are not acting in a matter to make a profit, they are committing a crime, and anyone can commit fraud, some even get away with it.

Yeah, that's still not even close to accurate. You can make dumb business choices that won't make you money and not be committing a crime. Seriously how are you not getting the difference?

It's called intent, and companies have a very long paper trail to cover themselves. When you take someone else's money under the agreement to do a specific thing and your actions show that intent, then you are fine, even in failure. If however your actions are clearly in contradiction that no reasonable person would do those actions while having the intent to fulfill the agreement, then you get in trouble. If you ever get an investment to do something, you become very much aware of these things.

Say you took a bank loan or received investment money to open a game store, then bought all your products at retail prices and then sold them at a 20% mark up and no one bought them, causing you to go out of business, you are fine, stupid but fine as you can show intent in your actions to make a profit. Now if you took that money and ran off to Cancun for a few weeks, cause that is how game stores are run, you're in trouble. So yes, legally obligated to act in a manner to make a profit, and if you are successful doing it, you actually get to keep your job.