A while ago we lost the Painting Forum.

This was due to some showing there Unlicensed model products from such companies as Shapeways and Mel's miniatures and others.

We can understand FFG not liking products other than there own or other official licensed products on the forums.

Especially with Disney being very strict on such cases.

The reason we lost the Painting Forum...... Unlicensed products.

I know this because I contacted FFG Directly.

I'm sure we don't want to lose the Painting Forum again, as I doubt we would get it back a second time.

And it's great to have such a creative and inspiring forum for us all to enjoy !

So let's stick to within the guide lines of the ....

X-Wing Painting and Modification Forum.

And enjoy each others work.

Thanks to all.

All the best,

Barry.

Love my YT 2000

@Giledhil: Dude, you don't need to thumb you nose up at Barry. Maybe you don't care if we lose this thread, but a great many of us do. Please show some class and edit your post*.

*edited my post after FFG chimed in on the topic:

Hello X-Wing forum community-

Contrary to popular opinion, the appearance of unlicensed ships actually had nothing to do with the removal of the Painting and Modification subforum. Similarly, although sales or marketing of any kind are not allowed on our forums (and these threads result in warnings and bans for the initial posters), these were also not the reason for the removal of the subforum. The forums were removed due to internal concerns that have since been resolved.

We very much appreciate your concern, but users posting pictures of unlicensed ships are not putting the subforum in danger of disappearing. If such a situation were to arise in the future, we will contact the forum and inform everyone of the new rules before taking such drastic measures to enforce them.

Thanks!

Evan Johnson

FFG Forum Admin

@Giledhil: Dude, you don't need to thumb you nose up at Barry. Maybe you don't care if we lose this thread, but a great many of us do. Please show some class and edit your post.

Hello Majeure.

Unfortunately there will always be one that wants to bring things Into disrepute.

Not to worry.

All you can do is try.

All the best my Freind.

Barry.

@Giledhil: Dude, you don't need to thumb you nose up at Barry. Maybe you don't care if we lose this thread, but a great many of us do. Please show some class and edit your post.

Caps-lock-titled topic by self-proclaimed pseudo-moderator ? This just begs for some troll, with a nice EU ship.

Even if what the OP claims is true (which I highly doubt), that would only worsen my opinion about FFG, thus giving me an irresistible desire to post a picture of my Otana.

@Giledhil: Dude, you don't need to thumb you nose up at Barry. Maybe you don't care if we lose this thread, but a great many of us do. Please show some class and edit your post.

Hello Majeure.

Unfortunately there will always be one that wants to bring things Into disrepute.

Not to worry.

All you can do is try.

All the best my Freind.

Barry.

Mm, guys, I'm not sure that's a Mel's product from Shapeways...and assuming the STL file to produce it is from the public domain [which is where I got my YT-2000], I really can't see how Disney or FFG can complain if someone uses a 3rd-party printers to produce it [for personal use only], as that's no different to producing it on a home machine - which I've personally done lots of over recent months, and is just an alternative way of producing models to scratchbuilding.

Now, if the STL file was produced by scanning an existing FFG product and then reprinting it, that's a different matter, and not too dissimilar to what SpaceRocks did with their 'wrecked ships'.

(It is also interesting to note that, as soon as FFG announce an 'official' version of a ship, Mel has always [as far as I'm aware] removed his existing version from Shapeways )

Well I got the Information......From the Horses Mouth, so to speak.

I Emailed FFG and asked why the Painting Forum was removed.

And I got a very good explanation back.

But for legal reasons I am not allowed to reprint or show what was written or said.

But in basic terms.

It was to many Unlicensed Products on the Painting forum.

Ian what your doing shouldn't be a problem.

they are made by you, for your personal use.

However.....if you were to sell them !

that is where you would run into problems

Its about ownership rights.

Star Wars Products are owned by Lucas Film Ltd, which is owned by Disney right.

Ok.

its really simple.

If you produce something that in court can be recognised as a star wars product.

and are not paying any Licence fee's "Copyright" for the use of that item or design.

But making money from selling that item.

then you are breaking the Law as far as Copy right is concerned.

I have personally had two people and one company in court....and Won ! over this very reason.

3 of my Designs where ripped off by someone else.

they then went on to produce items from my designs.

I put a court injunction on those individuals.

proved the designs where mine.

And the courts forced them to stop producing the products and awarded me damages.

Weather its one person or a Large company.

no one deserves to have there designs or intellectual property taken.

and then go on to make profit from those such items.

Its pretty simple.

A company has made copy's of Star wars Vehicles.

they are not Licensed. and there fore pay no fee's to the owner of those designs.

They were shown on the Old painting Forums.

FFG did not like that " and I completely understand and agree with it !"

and they removed the painting Forum.

That's it.

And if it starts happening again.

they will remove it again.

Im just trying to put the message out so that we don't lose the painting forum for the second time,

Fair enough, Barry, can quite see where you're coming from re Mel's ships, even if they are not elsewhere available he is still making a profit from selling the designs...

...however, I'd just say that I'd be surprised if Shapeways [who are really just a 3d-printing service & marketplace] don't have something within their 'sellers rules' about sales of copyrighted material, and I'm surprised the likes of Disney and other studios haven't come down hard on them & their marketplace sellers already if they have the grounds to do so.

The other thing to bear in mind is whether some of the ship designs are owned by LucasFilm, since I believe a lot are instead based upon illustrations produced for RPG's etc by other companies whose products were licensed from them, but may now no longer exist...not quite sure where copyright lies in those situations, but will bow to your superior knowledge re that

The fact is that they can yank the forum away at a whim, and if the reason they did it before was because of other people making and showing Star Wars ships, I highly doubt they (the admins) are going to waste time and get into a back-and-forth with anyone about the legalities of copyright, payment, derivative works, and so forth.

They are just going to yank the **** forum away again.

Because they can.

So yeah, while I love seeing other ships already out there, like the type 2 Scyk I plan on doing a conversion to, let's not get the forum taken away again.

Fair enough, Barry, can quite see where you're coming from re Mel's ships, even if they are not elsewhere available he is still making a profit from selling the designs...

...however, I'd just say that I'd be surprised if Shapeways [who are really just a 3d-printing service & marketplace] don't have something within their 'sellers rules' about sales of copyrighted material, and I'm surprised the likes of Disney and other studios haven't come down hard on them & their marketplace sellers already if they have the grounds to do so.

The other thing to bear in mind is whether some of the ship designs are owned by LucasFilm, since I believe a lot are instead based upon illustrations produced for RPG's etc by other companies whose products were licensed from them, but may now no longer exist...not quite sure where copyright lies in those situations, but will bow to your superior knowledge re that

Hi Ian.

I wouldn't say im an expert.

But my experience wasn't something I want to go through again.

Stressed and Angry for a long time over my work being ripped off.

I know a lot of Designers.

and I lost a friend a few years ago from his work being ripped off.

He lost Hundreds of thousands of Pounds, his house his family and eventually his life.

And the guy who ripped him off is Now a top Designer in Europe.

It doesn't always go the right way.

So no matter how little or trifle the issue is.

no one person or huge company deserves to have there property taken and used by someone else for there own profit and gains.

All the best Ian,

Barry.

The fact is that they can yank the forum away at a whim, and if the reason they did it before was because of other people making and showing Star Wars ships, I highly doubt they (the admins) are going to waste time and get into a back-and-forth with anyone about the legalities of copyright, payment, derivative works, and so forth.

They are just going to yank the **** forum away again.

Because they can.

So yeah, while I love seeing other ships already out there, like the type 2 Scyk I plan on doing a conversion to, let's not get the forum taken away again.

Yes your right.

If they dont like something. they will just pull it.

Im not trying to chastise anyone or moderate.

But I do care about the Painting forum and what we all have !

Its a great place to enjoy each others work and view everyone's creativity and chat about the thing we all love......Star Wars

You remember what it was like when we lost the Paint Forum ?

we lost our place to share ideas, and I will go as far to say I reckon the Paint forum, Is one of the most....if not the most positive place

within the X wing Forums.

Its Positive, Creative and everyone has great enthusiasm chatting and sharing ideas.

We could lose it again if we are not careful.

All the best,

Barry.

@Giledhil: Dude, you don't need to thumb you nose up at Barry. Maybe you don't care if we lose this thread, but a great many of us do. Please show some class and edit your post.

Caps-lock-titled topic by self-proclaimed pseudo-moderator ? This just begs for some troll, with a nice EU ship.

Even if what the OP claims is true (which I highly doubt), that would only worsen my opinion about FFG, thus giving me an irresistible desire to post a picture of my Otana.

Dude, there's no need for this ^^. And Barry is not claiming to be a forum moderator, pseudo or otherwise. He's merely pointing out the reason why we lost this subforum the first time round and asking that others don't make that same mistake again. And his claims are true. It was common knowledge the first time round, because there were a massive amount of disappointed members that asked the question and got the same answer.

FFG own this forum and can pull the plug whenever they like, and without notice. And if it does, it's because dudes like you can't understand a few simple guidelines. Don't be that guy.

@Giledhil: Dude, you don't need to thumb you nose up at Barry. Maybe you don't care if we lose this thread, but a great many of us do. Please show some class and edit your post.

Hello Majeure.

Unfortunately there will always be one that wants to bring things Into disrepute.

Not to worry.

All you can do is try.

All the best my Freind.

Barry.

It's a shame we can't get this pinned to the top of the page, Barry. Preferably after editing a post or two.

@Giledhil: Dude, you don't need to thumb you nose up at Barry. Maybe you don't care if we lose this thread, but a great many of us do. Please show some class and edit your post.

Caps-lock-titled topic by self-proclaimed pseudo-moderator ? This just begs for some troll, with a nice EU ship.

Even if what the OP claims is true (which I highly doubt), that would only worsen my opinion about FFG, thus giving me an irresistible desire to post a picture of my Otana.

If there's only one or two posters who thumb their noses at the idea of copyright infringement, maybe FFG will just ban them. Gildehil, you might consider that. How would you like to be notified that you've been banned from the forums? Don't underestimate the power of a cranky mouse.

Barry wasn't being a pseudo moderator. He was trying to get everyone's attention to a situation that got out of hand before and caused the paint and mod forum to disappear for quite awhile.

You need to understand how licensing agreements work to truly appreciate the position FFG gets placed in when stuff gets shown here that infringes on copyrights and IP rights. These licensing agreements go far beyond just specifying how much FFG pays Disney to be able to make and sell little plastic spaceships.

If you need an example, look at the dust up that Games Workshop caused a couple of years ago. They sent out many cease and desist orders. I think they numbered in the hundreds but not sure of the exact number. They are nowhere as big as Disney but managed to shut down a lot of individuals making accessories for WH40K.

So, curb your desire to post pics of your Otana and enjoy the work posted here, legally.

The truth is that we lost this forum last year because of shapeways people trying to make the site their sales page.

Chill gang, and don't be wholeasses.

The truth is that we lost this forum last year because of shapeways people trying to make the site their sales page.

And where is the proof of that? Are we supposed to believe the word of someone who "has received an email from somebody at FFG but can't copy or quote it" ?

I can see why FFG would close the subforum due to copyright problems, but why reopen it without pinning some rules at the top then ? It makes no sense at all.

So I'm more than skeptical about the veracity of all this.

If there's only one or two posters who thumb their noses at the idea of copyright infringement, maybe FFG will just ban them. Gildehil, you might consider that. How would you like to be notified that you've been banned from the forums?

Actually there are no rules written on this sub-forum about my home-printed YT2000. If that was the case, yeah, I would consider following it.

And if I'm getting moderated, so be it, after all, that's what moderators are for. But at least we'll get a response about all this ^^

In the meantime, please relax yourself watching pictures from a nice X-wing game :

I say just let people post there plastic customs, if all it is to show case their painting or custom games.

Its not like we are all going to be alive for very long on this planet just let people enjoy life. All this lawyer this, copyright that is a bunch of bs that should be thrown out the window for the grand scheme of things. To let humanity enjoy the small blip of life they get. and if a custom created piece of plastic allows someone to do that, **** it.

Its not as if we arnt giving money to FFG.

...The other thing to bear in mind is whether some of the ship designs are owned by LucasFilm, since I believe a lot are instead based upon illustrations produced for RPG's etc by other companies whose products were licensed from them, but may now no longer exist...not quite sure where copyright lies in those situations, but will bow to your superior knowledge re that

I'm not a lawyer, but I am a librarian. I don't customize or paint my ships, but I like looking at the work of those who post their creations here. Violations of intellectual property are serious business, and few take it as seriously as Disney. Material produced under license would still be considered copyrighted by the licensing company (take a look at the copyright info along the side of your X-Wing upgrade cards: © LFL © FFG; alternatively, look at the printed material like wrappers and designs on cups that you get at many fast-food restaurants- these are often produced by companies other than the restaurant itself). Even if the material is not being produced or sourced anymore, the material is still protected by copyright (it's called an "orphan work") and replication is a violation of copyright.

It's also entirely possible that FFG received a "cease and desist" from Disney about potentially-infringing materials on the forum, so FFG has to take actions to avoid a larger "cease and desist" or even loss of the (lucrative!) SW license. Want to protect and enjoy the game? Make sure you're not stepping on someone else's copyright. (I'm happy to talk through copyright stuff with anyone- just send me a PM.)

Do what they do in other forums. Start a thread for your painted models and if you want to show a third party off just put a pic in as a bonus after a whole bunch of pics of paints of your official models.

Ah, the naivety of youth.

Why is it so hard for some to believe that the forum was yanked because of unlicensed material being posted here? Is it like the "wet paint" sign on a park bench? You don't believe it until you poke your finger into the forest green paint, come back with a glob on your finger and go, "Yep, it's wet". Now what do you do with the paint on your finger? Handkerchief? Grass? Pants? None of that is an option here.

Licensing Agreements are usually strictly confidential and is probably the reason Barry can't cut and paste the FFG response. In addition to the "Company A will pay Company B $ for the rights to produce little plastic space ships" they also read like the Ten Commandments except there are a heck of a lot more than 10. There's a lot of Thou Shall and Thou Shalt Not. And before someone jumps on the "confidential" portion and says something stupid like, "If it's SO confidential how does Harker know about it", stop and think about it for a minute. The light bulb MAY turn on.

As far as being on this planet for a short time, Disney as a corporate entity, will out live all of us. They will protect their rights.

Probably 40+ years ago Disney issued a Cease and Desist order to a company that made decals for model airplane kits. Why? Glad you asked. It seems the decal company was producing decals for the 'nose art' on a specific WW II navy aircraft. Disney had generated the original design and had given that piece of art to the pilot. Putting the design on an aircraft's nose is different than duplicating it and selling that design. Disney never relinquished their ownership of the design and still had a good legal standing even though that art work had appeared hundreds if not thousands of time in print and photographs. That was about 25 years after the war ended.

Don't be a doofuss or a mule's hind end and post stuff just because someone said you shouldn't. A little common sense will serve you well.

Love my YT 2000

So, given your 340 posts and asshat attitude, I'm guessing you weren't here when this Forum was pulled or reinstated?

Barry - who has been a stalwart of this forum and community - is trying to ensure that we don't lose this again for the same reason we lost it last time.

You - who have not - is being a deliberately provocative clown. Well done. Way to stand out in the crowd.

...The other thing to bear in mind is whether some of the ship designs are owned by LucasFilm, since I believe a lot are instead based upon illustrations produced for RPG's etc by other companies whose products were licensed from them, but may now no longer exist...not quite sure where copyright lies in those situations, but will bow to your superior knowledge re that

Material produced under license would still be considered copyrighted by the licensing company (take a look at the copyright info along the side of your X-Wing upgrade cards: © LFL © FFG...Even if the material is not being produced or sourced anymore, the material is still protected by copyright (it's called an "orphan work") and replication is a violation of copyright.

Thanks for this...was looking at many of the "YV" designs that are on Wookiepedia, and they mostly seem to belong to one artist who designed them for WOTC RPG handbooks...I did wonder if the IPR returned to the artist at all, or continued to belong to the 'parent' licencee...thanks

Probably 40+ years ago Disney issued a Cease and Desist order to a company that made decals for model airplane kits. Why? Glad you asked. It seems the decal company was producing decals for the 'nose art' on a specific WW II navy aircraft. Disney had generated the original design and had given that piece of art to the pilot. Putting the design on an aircraft's nose is different than duplicating it and selling that design. Disney never relinquished their ownership of the design and still had a good legal standing even though that art work had appeared hundreds if not thousands of time in print and photographs. That was about 25 years after the war ended.

After the earlier discussion above, had been wondering about similar situations where companies have produced 'super-detailing' packages for various models in the past...with a view to the idea of offering such detailing/mods as 3d-printable files [following a post about something similar in my mods/repaints thread] - if something is an addition, as opposed to a replacement part, is it still treated in the same way ? Do these producers of detailing kits have to seek permission from the kit manufacturer or the licencee, or both ?

...and does any of this come in to play if it's all done on a 'not-for-profit' basis, like the distribution of free STL files on Thingiverse under the "Creative Commons" licence?

I've no axe to grind either way...I don't see there's any difference between scratchbuilt models of existing designs and 3d-printed versions of the same, but if one is deemed acceptable and the other not, fair enough...but please do note Giledhil's comment in his later post that the YT-2000 causing all the dispute was home-printed, and I suspect from the same source that I produced mine which is a freely-available file...if they're not allowed, why should a scratchbuilt version of the same craft be permitted ?

Cheers

Given that Disney have shown perfectly willing to go after people other than FFG making money off this game, I am also curious where the line is regarding 3D printing and websites like Shapeways but am not sure I want to push and find out, particularly not if it means we risk losing - again - once of my personal favorite subforums.

Given that Disney have shown perfectly willing to go after people other than FFG making money off this game, I am also curious where the line is regarding 3D printing and websites like Shapeways but am not sure I want to push and find out, particularly not if it means we risk losing - again - once of my personal favorite subforums.

The main issue was certain artist posting links to buy their models... that is what pushed it over.

The truth is that we lost this forum last year because of shapeways people trying to make the site their sales page.

And where is the proof of that? Are we supposed to believe the word of someone who "has received an email from somebody at FFG but can't copy or quote it" ?

YES!

Hmmm,

This is all getting very Interesting isn't it !

I was mearly trying to remind some people of the issue we Had.

And the reason behind the loss of the paint forum in the first place.

And I noticed a few posts were getting close to the situation we had last time.

Tell you what.

I'll get FFG Directly involved.

I will chat to some moderators and contact FFG Directly like I did last time.

See if I can get a moderator to comment on this particular situation.

In the mean time.

Perhaps some of you might find this interesting.

It is Star wars related with regards to licencing.

Go down a few paragraphs and it gets to the nitty gritty of it......

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=/amp/s/legalmatterblog.com/2015/04/27/may-the-4th-be-with-your-brand-a-legal-guide-to-making-star-wars-tributes/amp/&ved=0ahUKEwi91rzIsavRAhXBPRoKHRZxAtcQFggjMAE&usg=AFQjCNEMrSNp3lJWdp3yBUKtX2mXzlLdKw&sig2=rPgfgvsnpAvVHtVGwke39w

All I was trying to do was protect what we have.

And not lose this part of the Forum again.

Regards.

Barry.