My problem is not the form it's that where would you learn Vapaad being that it's a pretty advanced thing to just come up with on your own, FAD characters can come up with ways to learn the 6 forms currently presented and this could be said of Juyo but Vapaad is something that took a Jedi Master time to come up with the idea and implement it. If the canon says Mace leaves something on Vapaad behind then I will have no qualms with its inclusion.

However my problem with Juyo is that we have 6 forms 6 classes and being that FFG has done things in a way that suggests they like patterns, I know there is only one form left but I don't see them adding it, if hey do great I'll enjoy it. But I do know one my players will have a fit if Vapaad is introduced due to how windu was so selective with who he taught it too.

So, this discussion is fascinating and all, but it's a little off topic from the Consular book, yeah? I mean, if it was the Warrior book they leaked, it would make more sense. Maybe you could track down one of the thirty-five dozen threads that touch on this particular topic...

So, how many people think that fellow on the cover looks kind of like Lord Hoth? And how much material from The Old Republic's Jedi Consular campaign will be drawn from? Eh? Eh?

All forms were developed by Jedi Masters after long study and experimentation. Vaapad isn't unique in having been developed by a Master.

Yes all except Shii Cho which is so basic younglings basically know the majority of the moves. Vapaad however is a state of mind, something you focus on to help you fight by using your opponents dark side against them. All I'm saying it's a more difficult thing to simply come up with on your own. I would have preferred Warriors starting with Juyo, Shii Cho should have been a universal tree that's just my opinion though.

As for talking about DoH who wants to think up what Force powers could be 3+ force rating besides Protect/Unleash.

Honestly all Lightsaber forms should be universal specs.

My problem is not the form it's that where would you learn Vapaad being that it's a pretty advanced thing to just come up with on your own, FAD characters can come up with ways to learn the 6 forms currently presented and this could be said of Juyo but Vapaad is something that took a Jedi Master time to come up with the idea and implement it. If the canon says Mace leaves something on Vapaad behind then I will have no qualms with its inclusion.

None of this has any real bearing on Juyo being a spec. Vapaad could merely be a talent. In either case most of the specs in this system are pretty much stuff the PC's have to relearn on their own. All of it is pretty hard to learn since there are no teachers so adding Vapaad as a talent isn't that problematic since one can argue that pretty much anything presented so far is ..... difficult to learn as is.

However my problem with Juyo is that we have 6 forms 6 classes and being that FFG has done things in a way that suggests they like patterns, I know there is only one form left but I don't see them adding it, if hey do great I'll enjoy it. But I do know one my players will have a fit if Vapaad is introduced due to how windu was so selective with who he taught it too.

I don't have a problem with your player having a fit. I'm not sure people should be denied a mechanic because your player objects. As for patterns ..... adding Juyo fits the pattern as it would complete their pattern of lightsabre combat forms. They've added plenty of other lightsabre combat techs so Juyo doesn't break any of their current patterns.

So, how many people think that fellow on the cover looks kind of like Lord Hoth? And how much material from The Old Republic's Jedi Consular campaign will be drawn from? Eh? Eh?

23% chance. They seem to be leaning less on the Old Republic material though. I expect we may see something from Rogue One depending on when this book went to press. Being as how we're not sure when this book went to press it is possible that we may get some nice force goodies from Rogue One. Chirrut Imew seems like the perfect type to find his way into the Counslar (or Mystic) book. May even be a back door way of canonizing Mirulaku.

Honestly all Lightsaber forms should be universal specs.

Considering how the lightsabre forms allow you to swap out stats for the lightsabre skill I can see why they aren't universal specs. It makes sense to stick the spec that lets you swap in Cunning with the career that focuses on Cunning.

I sincerely hope that we'll get a spec that focuses on the social aspects. Sage does it some, but... I honestly don't feel like the current Consular spec is Consular enough. I know why Advisor is in Mystic and Healer in Consular, but it still feels like it should have been the other way around. Consulars are supposed to be the diplomats, and right now their most diplomat-y spec is also a Knowledge-focused spec.

Hopefully the book will make the Consular closer to what it feels like it should be.

I would really love to see Leadership and Coercion combined in a Specialisation. It's one of the few social combinations that have not really been explored yet and I think there is some interesting ways that unique talents could work with them, especially with a Dark Side talent that's not Combat oriented.

I would really love to see Leadership and Coercion combined in a Specialisation. It's one of the few social combinations that have not really been explored yet and I think there is some interesting ways that unique talents could work with them, especially with a Dark Side talent that's not Combat oriented.

Oh, that is an idea. I was about to say Agitator, but when I went back to look at the spec tree I saw that I was wrong and it has no leadership talents. (I was also reminded that I still want to play one, but never mind that. I always seem to end up playing FaD specs anyway.)

I wouldn't call it a gripe , but I think Consular's biggest shortcoming is not really knowing what a Consular does --what role they are supposed to play as character types--in Force and Destiny. We know what they are, mechanically, but what is the career supposed to do? Every time I cross-reference older material on Jedi Consulars, such as The Jedi Path or stuff relating to KotOR, FFG Consular and Mystic overlap on many of the same ideas*. I didn't realize how little I understood the F&D careers as character types until Keeping the Peace came out. It really helped me to understand what a Guardian is, and each subsequent career book has helped with each, but Consular and Mystic are the two that need their books the most, just so they can stop overlapping and everybody can get a clear picture of what they are.

*For example, I liken the Consular to the mage, the Guardian to the knight, and the Sentinel to the rogue. The Consular focuses on the Force, understanding, learning more about it, then using it. But Mystic, at least conceptually, covers those aspects as well.

My problem is not the form it's that where would you learn Vapaad being that it's a pretty advanced thing to just come up with on your own, FAD characters can come up with ways to learn the 6 forms currently presented and this could be said of Juyo but Vapaad is something that took a Jedi Master time to come up with the idea and implement it. If the canon says Mace leaves something on Vapaad behind then I will have no qualms with its inclusion.

However my problem with Juyo is that we have 6 forms 6 classes and being that FFG has done things in a way that suggests they like patterns, I know there is only one form left but I don't see them adding it, if hey do great I'll enjoy it. But I do know one my players will have a fit if Vapaad is introduced due to how windu was so selective with who he taught it too.

I'm almost certain we're going to see Juyo in the warrior book. Not sure about Vaapad, technically it makes the most sense to make it a Sig Ability that exclusively attaches to the top of the Juyo spec. Though I'm sure the Devs will think of something different.

As for Vaapad never being taught to anyone. We don't know exactly how much EU info is being overwritten. However, in the EU, it was confirmed that Mace Windu did create a holocron with full information on the Vaapad form.

See I did not know that Mace left a Holocron behind in the EU, Thank you. Let's wait and see if that becomes canon then. If we are going to see juyo it will be in the warrior book, all I'm saying is I'm not betting on it.

My problem is not the form it's that where would you learn Vapaad being that it's a pretty advanced thing to just come up with on your own, FAD characters can come up with ways to learn the 6 forms currently presented and this could be said of Juyo but Vapaad is something that took a Jedi Master time to come up with the idea and implement it. If the canon says Mace leaves something on Vapaad behind then I will have no qualms with its inclusion.

None of this has any real bearing on Juyo being a spec. Vapaad could merely be a talent. In either case most of the specs in this system are pretty much stuff the PC's have to relearn on their own. All of it is pretty hard to learn since there are no teachers so adding Vapaad as a talent isn't that problematic since one can argue that pretty much anything presented so far is ..... difficult to learn as is.

However my problem with Juyo is that we have 6 forms 6 classes and being that FFG has done things in a way that suggests they like patterns, I know there is only one form left but I don't see them adding it, if hey do great I'll enjoy it. But I do know one my players will have a fit if Vapaad is introduced due to how windu was so selective with who he taught it too.

I don't have a problem with your player having a fit. I'm not sure people should be denied a mechanic because your player objects. As for patterns ..... adding Juyo fits the pattern as it would complete their pattern of lightsabre combat forms. They've added plenty of other lightsabre combat techs so Juyo doesn't break any of their current patterns.

So, how many people think that fellow on the cover looks kind of like Lord Hoth? And how much material from The Old Republic's Jedi Consular campaign will be drawn from? Eh? Eh?

23% chance. They seem to be leaning less on the Old Republic material though. I expect we may see something from Rogue One depending on when this book went to press. Being as how we're not sure when this book went to press it is possible that we may get some nice force goodies from Rogue One. Chirrut Imew seems like the perfect type to find his way into the Counslar (or Mystic) book. May even be a back door way of canonizing Mirulaku.

Honestly all Lightsaber forms should be universal specs.

Considering how the lightsabre forms allow you to swap out stats for the lightsabre skill I can see why they aren't universal specs. It makes sense to stick the spec that lets you swap in Cunning with the career that focuses on Cunning.

It's spelled Miraluka ,

I wouldn't call it a gripe , but I think Consular's biggest shortcoming is not really knowing what a Consular does --what role they are supposed to play as character types--in Force and Destiny. We know what they are, mechanically, but what is the career supposed to do? Every time I cross-reference older material on Jedi Consulars, such as The Jedi Path or stuff relating to KotOR, FFG Consular and Mystic overlap on many of the same ideas*. I didn't realize how little I understood the F&D careers as character types until Keeping the Peace came out. It really helped me to understand what a Guardian is, and each subsequent career book has helped with each, but Consular and Mystic are the two that need their books the most, just so they can stop overlapping and everybody can get a clear picture of what they are.

*For example, I liken the Consular to the mage, the Guardian to the knight, and the Sentinel to the rogue. The Consular focuses on the Force, understanding, learning more about it, then using it. But Mystic, at least conceptually, covers those aspects as well.

They are similar, but IMO, the main difference between the two is that the Consular is focused on being an agent of peace, while the mystic is focused on studying the Force. They accomplish this through sometimes overlapping means.

They are similar, but IMO, the main difference between the two is that the Consular is focused on being an agent of peace, while the mystic is focused on studying the Force. They accomplish this through sometimes overlapping means.

I agree with this definition as well.

If it is correct, or the intended role of the developers, I'd just like some clear examples of it, and hopefully something along the lines of "Consulars are like in many ways Mystics, except for X, Y and Z."

Part of the mud in the water for me is that the supposed social Consular has the Niman Disciple while the "at one with the Force" Mystic has the Makashi Dualist.

You don't become one with the Force by being a hermit. You need to engage with people. That's kinda the lesson Luke taught Obi-Wan and Yoda in Return of the Jedi. It makes sense that the ultimate Jedi spec is in a socially focused career.

Mystic and Consular are the same thing the difference between them is like

a tribal shaman and a Monk. Both are social, learned men or women who study and manipulate the force one uses rigid structure and the other takes a more personalized natural approach.

One sees the force as a living breathing entity and the other sees it as a power source.

Now for why light saber specs should be universal.

For a Setinal you have three stat choices and usually people choose 2 of them.

Agility for Stealth, cunning for Investigation and skullduggary, Intelligence for hacking and crafting.

I personally make Cunning and Agility based Shadows.

For Consulars you have Intelligence for Lore, Presence for Social and Will for Force.

I personally tend to play Presence/Will Power Consulars.

For Shadows I like using Ataru for the additional coordination and athletics abilities as well as I like being an acrobatic melee

type. I should not have to pay extra to be an Acrobatic light saber duelist.

For Consulars I like Niman, because I tend to focus more on the Wizard type character.

How ever for people who like being the More Social Sage types they should not be penalized to pick up Makashi or Soresu.

This applies to every single one of the Archetypes hence the Stats you use to make your character may force you to go outside spec and pay extra for a character type that is already xp starved.

Hence all Light Saber Specs should be Universal especially given lore its typical for Padawans to be taught multiple light saber styles as they progress in training.

Mystic and Consular are the same thing the difference between them is like

a tribal shaman and a Monk. Both are social, learned men or women who study and manipulate the force one uses rigid structure and the other takes a more personalized natural approach.

One sees the force as a living breathing entity and the other sees it as a power source.

Now for why light saber specs should be universal.

For a Setinal you have three stat choices and usually people choose 2 of them.

Agility for Stealth, cunning for Investigation and skullduggary, Intelligence for hacking and crafting.

I personally make Cunning and Agility based Shadows.

For Consulars you have Intelligence for Lore, Presence for Social and Will for Force.

I personally tend to play Presence/Will Power Consulars.

For Shadows I like using Ataru for the additional coordination and athletics abilities as well as I like being an acrobatic melee

type. I should not have to pay extra to be an Acrobatic light saber duelist.

For Consulars I like Niman, because I tend to focus more on the Wizard type character.

How ever for people who like being the More Social Sage types they should not be penalized to pick up Makashi or Soresu.

This applies to every single one of the Archetypes hence the Stats you use to make your character may force you to go outside spec and pay extra for a character type that is already xp starved.

Hence all Light Saber Specs should be Universal especially given lore its typical for Padawans to be taught multiple light saber styles as they progress in training.

If you want to house rule that way, go for it. But making the Lightsaber specs universal is anathema to the way this system treats Force users. FaD specs aren't meant to mean you are a Jedi or Sith in training, but at best a wannabes learning as they go along. You may be Light side or you may be Dark side or you may fall in the middle. You can still be a Consular Niman Disciple and be full Darksider. You can be a Warrior Aggressor and still be full Lightsider.

As for Juyo: it is not a Dark side form. It has a heavy reliance on an emotional state that favors aggression and unpredictability that can lead to the Dark Side but the form in itself is not Dark. Besides without Juyo, Rahm Kota wouldn't be such a bad-ay ess ess.

There is something else to consider, too: despite them name-dropping the lightsaber forms, none of the lightsaber specializations require a character to have learned the form as the Jedi knew it . For example, Keeping the Peace offers various background suggestions for Guardians; one of the suggestions for Soresu Defender was that they learned an ancient fighting style that shares roots with Soresu, or is simply similar in principle. Really, the lightsaber specializations focus more on the philosophical reasoning behind the fighting styles, and are not just a means for a PC to learn to use their lightsaber.

I hate to break it to you, but none of the light saber styles fit a single class. Honestly when I first read the main book a long time ago I got the impression that the designers were being lazy and couldn't be bothered to actually make additional specs so they shoe horned in what should be universal specs. Light Sabers are meant to be rare and difficult to handle so hey lets make it so at starting anyone can have one. Its a lost art that you can automaticly start the game with. By making them integrated into the game and easy to acquire they violated the basic design principle for the game. I'd argue that including them in is anathema to the entire purpose behind force and destiny and stifles character creation and creativity by stating hey you want to be a Seeker well guess what you have to pick up Ataru.

There is something else to consider, too: despite them name-dropping the lightsaber forms, none of the lightsaber specializations require a character to have learned the form as the Jedi knew it . For example, Keeping the Peace offers various background suggestions for Guardians; one of the suggestions for Soresu Defender was that they learned an ancient fighting style that shares roots with Soresu, or is simply similar in principle. Really, the lightsaber specializations focus more on the philosophical reasoning behind the fighting styles, and are not just a means for a PC to learn to use their lightsaber.

I typically consider all the specs to be in the same boat as not having to be done as the Jedi Knew It. I see them more as archetype templates for Force users.

I hate to break it to you, but none of the light saber styles fit a single class.

Yes well .... it's not that bad really. Many of the specs really don't fit a single career, to be honest. It's the nature of the beast when you transform a popular medium into an rpg. You're bound to have elements that do not easily fit into one career or class or whatever the system name for such things is.

Honestly when I first read the main book a long time ago I got the impression that the designers were being lazy and couldn't be bothered to actually make additional specs so they shoe horned in what should be universal specs.

I find it unlikely. What was likely the driving focus was the idea of opening up lightsabre combat to not depend solely on Brawn. Thus they stick one in each career that focuses on the appropriate trait. I'm sure there are balance reasons for this as well.

Light Sabers are meant to be rare and difficult to handle so hey lets make it so at starting anyone can have one. Its a lost art that you can automaticly start the game with.

All the specs are lost arts that anyone can start the game with.

By making them integrated into the game and easy to acquire they violated the basic design principle for the game. I'd argue that including them in is anathema to the entire purpose behind force and destiny and stifles character creation and creativity by stating hey you want to be a Seeker well guess what you have to pick up Ataru.

I think most people would find their creativity has not been stifled. There is nothing about being a Seeker that makes you pick Ataru. You at no point have to ever pick Ataru as a Seeker. The first Seeker I created is never likely to pick up Ataru ....... and I'd like to think it was a creative character.

If something is in career it just means it comes easier to you. Makashi Warleader? Sure, Hunter Protector (out in the savannah stopping poaching) absolutely, Artisan Armorer... definitely! Often combining 2 Specs from different careers is how you get the most interesting characters in the game.

Careers seem more like unifying themes rather than a box that you must place your character in.

If something is in career it just means it comes easier to you. Makashi Warleader? Sure, Hunter Protector (out in the savannah stopping poaching) absolutely, Artisan Armorer... definitely! Often combining 2 Specs from different careers is how you get the most interesting characters in the game.

I'm rather fond of my Shadow Analyst over in the Edge game. I didn't think combining those two would be good but the more I go over the talents I want to buy the more I see the synergy between the two for that particular concept.