Careers seem more like unifying themes rather than a box that you must place your character in.
Which is a really good thing, in my opinion. The stricter class-based systems like D&D is often a bit too restrictive and focused for my tastes. I like this system better, where you have a roughly character-shaped form to start with that can grow in any directions you want without sacrificing efficiency.
As far as Juyo is concerned, I think that the Conflict tree in Warrior is actually more likely to be Vaapad - with Juyo being a very powerful and Maul-based conflict talent. It represents the inherent risk in using Vaapad, while also representing Form VII as being the "Dark Side Form Juyo" without needing an 8th form. Warrior is also the clearest place to put it - already having the Career juggling both the Light and Dark.
As for Specs in the Consular book - I think the Teacher/Instructor/Mentor spec is a pretty strong contender. I also think that a Palpatine inspired class could find its way - a cool manipulator that worms its way through others through deceit and raw charisma. Though I generally associate Palpatine with the Mystic Career, I also like the duality of Consular being significant to both Yoda and Palpatine in conceptualization. The final specialization I could see as an Lore Master, like Jocasta Nu, with the tree akin to the Data Analyst tree.
If something is in career it just means it comes easier to you. Makashi Warleader? Sure, Hunter Protector (out in the savannah stopping poaching) absolutely, Artisan Armorer... definitely! Often combining 2 Specs from different careers is how you get the most interesting characters in the game.
I can certainly attest to that.
You don't become one with the Force by being a hermit. You need to engage with people. That's kinda the lesson Luke taught Obi-Wan and Yoda in Return of the Jedi. It makes sense that the ultimate Jedi spec is in a socially focused career.
The Seeker:Hermit with a Force 3 talent tree begs you to reconsider how one may become one with the Force.
The Seeker:Hermit with a Force 3 talent tree begs you to reconsider how one may become one with the Force.You don't become one with the Force by being a hermit. You need to engage with people. That's kinda the lesson Luke taught Obi-Wan and Yoda in Return of the Jedi. It makes sense that the ultimate Jedi spec is in a socially focused career.
I think that's contrary to what the movies show, though.
Not quite Stan Fresh, it's a 0 silhouette hermit Yoda riding a 1 silhouette Luke... and he is surrounded by animals so he can use survival instead of discipline to regain strain. He even used soothing tone on Luke to make him regain strain when he got too tired to run.
Not quite Stan Fresh, it's a 0 silhouette hermit Yoda riding a 1 silhouette Luke... and he is surrounded by animals so he can use survival instead of discipline to regain strain. He even used soothing tone on Luke to make him regain strain when he got too tired to run.
Haha! "Giddy up, you must"
If you want to house rule that way, go for it. But making the Lightsaber specs universal is anathema to the way this system treats Force users. FaD specs aren't meant to mean you are a Jedi or Sith in training, but at best a wannabes learning as they go along.
anathema is a bit strong of a word. and I agree that the placement of many of the lightsaber forms are questionable. Why does the profession with the "Face" tree have the one-on-one duelist spec in it? Why does the wilderness warrior, who seeks enlightenment by seeking out oddities of the Force in the Universe have the spec that is most equivalent to an FRPG Berzerker? And I am looking for an answer that does not contain "Well because Faces use PResance and Makashi uses Presence, type answers."
It would have been better off to throw all of the saber forms into a universal "career" that all users can take and have a requirement of having an FR 1+ to take them. This would accomplish 2 beneficial things: 1) allowing people to better select a saber form that suits their particular character without the OOC "tax" and 2) provide growth room for an additional thematic builds for each class.
anathema is a bit strong of a word. and I agree that the placement of many of the lightsaber forms are questionable. Why does the profession with the "Face" tree have the one-on-one duelist spec in it? Why does the wilderness warrior, who seeks enlightenment by seeking out oddities of the Force in the Universe have the spec that is most equivalent to an FRPG Berzerker? And I am looking for an answer that does not contain "Well because Faces use PResance and Makashi uses Presence, type answers."
The answer to this question is found in the space between the name of the specialization and the talents, namely, the actual description of the specializations.
Instead of lightsaber forms being universal let the first form you pick be universal. And then the rest are not?
A lot of them still seem like they are shoe-horned into a career because they have an LS attribute option that overlaps with the primary skills used by the other 2 specs (Guardian not with standing).
For example:
it does not automatically follow that:
If you are a Mystic Advisor or Mystic Seer that you have the core skill set to also be a preeminent saber duelist and master of 1v1 combat
That you are a specialized using the force to be a ranged marksman or using the Force to explore the unknown that you would be prone to being a master 2 weapon fighter.
That you use the force in a manner to keep the peace or protect others that you automatically are more likely to have a defensive fighting style
Yet that is exactly what putting the forms into specific trees does (and the precident set in EotE and AOR that most, if not all specs in a given career are logical outgrowths of each other)
That kind of logic, though, can be applied to almost any career. It does not automatically follow that: being able to pilot something means you can work on and rig the same vehicle; being able to hunt big game means you're capable of archaeology; being able work on guns means you can develop cybernetics; being a political negotiator means you're capable of codebreaking and analysis. And so on.
Except, for most other careers, they have more fit (especially if you are looking at just the CRBs, which I am here):
Bounty Hunter: All deal with some sort of hunting (direct kill, tracking, or building bigger guns)
Hired Gun: All deal with some sort of mercenary work
Technician: All deal with some sort of technology
Colonist: All deal with things that would be needed on backwater colony
*Smuggler: This does fall apart some, but the Scoundrel is a kind of combination of the other 2
*Explorer: Also a catch-all. But all have the commonality that they are drifters of a sort
Ace: Pilot, Driver, Gunner. As Pilot and Driver are functionally identical (other than the focus on Space vs planetary), gunner is a good fit here, especially for a military focused carreer)
*Diplomat: One of the 2 catch all for AOR this is the most that departs from a unifying them other than being support
Engineer: Scientist, Saboteur, and Mechanic both the mechanic and Scientist deal with developing new technologies and the Saboteur having plausible crossover with the other 2 (developing new explosives and the best way to blow things up is to learn their weak points)
*Spy: The other catch-all in AOR, Infiltrator, scout, and slicer. Other than 2 having to deal with being sneaky. But all have things to do with spycraft.
Commander: All deal with leading a specific unit type. While there may not be a direct crossover with tactician and squadron leader (both being field commanders), both could develop into commodor (rear echelon senior officer).
Soldier: All are a specific type of soldier while all have a specific role it is not hard to imagine the others developing off of each other
So even when there is an oddball specialization, it still fits a core theme of the career, which many of the saber specs do not fit in a way other than 'well the other 2 use X attribute so does this saber form'.
How many archetypical advisors are skilled duelists? In most stories, the evil advisors rely on deception, trickery, or having others fight them rather than directly fighting their opponents.
How many archetypical advisors are skilled duelists? In most stories, the evil advisors rely on deception, trickery, or having others fight them rather than directly fighting their opponents.
Heck, that one's easy. In fact, I've got a Star Wars example for you: Count Dooku. A master of Makashi, and a suave, guile politician. Easily an Advisor/Makashi Duelist. Even the Tapani saber rakes may fit, too.
And, both historically and in classical romantic literature (and Star Wars has never shied away from drawing on older fiction), being a practiced swordsman and being a member of nobility is almost synonymous, and Makashi is very much the 'fencing' form.
Actually Dooku is a Consular. He was one of Yoda's Padawans. He's a Consular that uses Makashi not an Advisor.
Infiltrator isn't even what it claims to be its some kind of melee combat tree pretending to be a stealth tree.
Sage is a half knowledge tree with Social skills shoved in because Consular is lacking a diplomat tree. So we end up with a bad knowledge bad social tree.
Advisor is the same way half face half force wizard which makes little or no sense.
They are both horrible trees that lack most of what they are described to do, because Consular can't have a Diplomat tree since they shoved in Niman. Meanwhile Mystic can't have a Shaman/Witch/Sorceror Tree since it has to have Makashi which is about as Mystic as a Japanese Robotics Engineer.
Edited by DecorusI honestly don't see the big deal. It's obivous that they are in the standard career tree for balance reasons, to better keep them on par with xp cost vs skill cost. This system is so open that even if your style doesn't fit the sabre form offered by your career that you can easily take one that does. This entire system is built on the assumption that you will take specs from different careers. For F&D it's pretty much a requirement if you want to seriously advance your FR raiting any further than 2 or 3.
This seems like an incredibly silly thing to bring up. Pretty much every career has that one spec that honestly doesn't fit with the rest as well as the others. Honestly what does being a Spy have to do with the Inflatrator (a spec that is pretty much just melee combat and not much else)? How in the world does being a Hot Shot or an Ace really jell with riding animals? The two activities are extremely removed from each other. The Pod Racer doesn't honestly fit the Shadow in the least. How is being good at sneaking around while using the Force get you anywhere near being able to race pods? What does the Warrior career in general truly have in common with Starfighter Ace, a martial art form and then Shi Cho?
Like seriously the lightsabre forms are not the only things that stick out. There are plenty that do. Nature of the best.
In a system that wants you to build your PC using pretty much any career you really don't need for all the specs in a career to line up perfectly. It's clear that some of them don't. The game isn't really harmed that much by it.
They are both horrible trees that lack most of what they are described to do, because Consular can't have a Diplomat tree since they shoved in Niman. Meanwhile Mystic can't have a Shaman/Witch/Sorceror Tree since it has to have Makashi which is about as Mystic as a Japanese Robotics Engineer.
Who says they can't? I find it highly unlikely that if the developers wanted Consular to have a Diplomat tree that they wouldn't give it one just because of Niman. The same goes with Mystic. If they want it to have a Shaman/Witch/Sorceror it will have one. Makashi won't be the reason it wouldn't have it. Them simply not designing one would be the reason. Considering some of the odd ball things we've seen in some trees (Starfighter Ace in Warrior ....... Pod racer in Shadow) it find it highly ....highly unlikely that lightsabre forms are the reason we wouldn't see something.
Edited by KaelAs for duelists using Presence, I made the accepting leap easily enough: Who is more likely to engage with others so poorly or well enough as to necessitate a personal duel? The Charismatic character, whose dice pool likely includes a handful of personal-scale social skills, like Charm, fits the answer for me.
Not quite Stan Fresh, it's a 0 silhouette hermit Yoda riding a 1 silhouette Luke... and he is surrounded by animals so he can use survival instead of discipline to regain strain. He even used soothing tone on Luke to make him regain strain when he got too tired to run.
So Yoda is a Seeker/ace beast rider...
Actually Dooku is a Consular. He was one of Yoda's Padawans. He's a Consular that uses Makashi not an Advisor.
This is folderol. There are plenty of examples of Dooku flexing his social skills. And, seeing as he served as the head of state to the CIS, but he was also a Count of Serenno. Advisor is practically designed with him in mind. "Because Yoda" is not a convincing counter-argument. I mean, come on, the dude was played by Christopher Lee ; could he be any more of a face if tried?
This is folderol.
Today my vocabulary has been expanded.
It actually listed the species. Impressive.
Did they say Arkanian? Yes, yes they did.
SWEEEEEEET!
Right then. Carry on.
Consular is the Original Jedi Diplomat they are the teachers, diplomats, mediators, healers, researchers, loremasters of the Jedi.
Mystic is well those strange Force Shamans Witches and other alternative Force Sensitive lifestyle choices you want to make A Dathomir Witch Mystic is where you go.
Palpatine, Yoda, Dooku and a whole bunch of others are all Consulars. You want to make a guy who talks to people and mediates conflicts your looking at a Consular.
An Advisor is the guy who gives advice its those creepy dudes Palpatine is often seen with. Dooku was many things, but he did not Advise Palaptine or the Jedi he is not an Advisor.
It's at the printer!