The biggest thing that makes me think that they won't reveal Vaapad is that the inventor and only teacher of it is dead and he did not leave any records of the form behind or else Anakin would have gone behind Master Windu's back and would have tried to learn that thing which would only made his fall to the darks side sooner.

Depa Bilaba knew it, so its possible she began teaching it to Kanan before order 66. Depending on what they do with the new canon, Sora Bulq could have taught it to others as well.

Who said Mace Windu was dead?

Diplomat

Sorceror

Sifu

Sorcerer sounds more like a spec for the Mystic book.

What the heck is a Sifu?

So far the consensus seems to be on:

Diplomat

Teacher/instructor

Who said Mace Windu was dead?

No one has said he's alive.

The biggest thing that makes me think that they won't reveal Vaapad is that the inventor and only teacher of it is dead and he did not leave any records of the form behind or else Anakin would have gone behind Master Windu's back and would have tried to learn that thing which would only made his fall to the darks side sooner.

Depa Bilaba knew it, so its possible she began teaching it to Kanan before order 66. Depending on what they do with the new canon, Sora Bulq could have taught it to others as well.

Sora Bulq was killed by Mace in EU, if he's brought into canon this might happen again, Depa also turned to the dark side for a bit when using this form (Was brought back to the light before she taught Kanan), so it's very unlikely Kanan learnt anything from her as she wouldn't want her padawan to fall to the dark side. Thus leaving only Mace Windu to teach it and the only person after those two who wanted to learn it was Anakin and Windu refused for Skywalker danced too close to the Dark side. So all in all Mace might not ever teach to anyone else again dead or not.

I personally believe we shouldn't get it because the setting we are in dictates the only reliable teacher of this form is dead or MIA. I will be happy if we see it but I ain't betting on it.

Sifu here means master, in the sense of someone extremely skilled at their craft, and also teacher. The person teaching you martial arts? That's your sifu.

Who said Mace Windu was dead?

No one has said he's alive.

The biggest thing that makes me think that they won't reveal Vaapad is that the inventor and only teacher of it is dead and he did not leave any records of the form behind or else Anakin would have gone behind Master Windu's back and would have tried to learn that thing which would only made his fall to the darks side sooner.

Depa Bilaba knew it, so its possible she began teaching it to Kanan before order 66. Depending on what they do with the new canon, Sora Bulq could have taught it to others as well.

Sora Bulq was killed by Mace in EU, if he's brought into canon this might happen again, Depa also turned to the dark side for a bit when using this form (Was brought back to the light before she taught Kanan), so it's very unlikely Kanan learnt anything from her as she wouldn't want her padawan to fall to the dark side. Thus leaving only Mace Windu to teach it and the only person after those two who wanted to learn it was Anakin and Windu refused for Skywalker danced too close to the Dark side. So all in all Mace might not ever teach to anyone else again dead or not.

I personally believe we shouldn't get it because the setting we are in dictates the only reliable teacher of this form is dead or MIA. I will be happy if we see it but I ain't betting on it.

What if Mace Windu committed the knowledge of the style to a holocron?

Like I said before, Mace would not since he had seen so many Jedi he taught himself go to the Darkside through Vaapad. A Holocron would be ten times worse, since there would be no master there to guide you to try and keep you from the dark side. If the setting was in the Clone Wars I could've seen it happening since you have access to Master Windu. The key difference between Master Windu and his students was that he realized the dark side was a part of him and accepted it and stayed in control of it, Both Sora and Depa hated their inner dark side and quickly fell to it, Anakin was so close to the darl side that Mace did not want to push him over the edge.

Mace most certainly did not stay in control of the Dark Side within him. He attempted an assassination on Palpatine. Palpatine was *supposedly* helpless in that moment and Mace was going to become judge jury & executioner on the spot. He was taking the law into his own hands at that point, something the Jedi would consider to be murder if he actually carried through with his actions. This is why I do not like Mace Windu as a character. He was not a very good "Jedi", yet he had a high position among them. Just like Anakin, the Jedi kept him among their ranks, despite knowing he was very close to turning to the Dark Side and paid for it in blood. His case does, however, help add to the notion that the Jedi were blind to what was happening and that their hubris clouded their judgement. So for that, his inclusion in the prequels and his character was a good addition. I just don't like how openly angry he is at all times in front of everyone, compared to Anakin who bottled most of it up to hide things from others until he explodes.

Back on the subject, it would be neat to have all 7 forms in lightsaber specializations. It would make sense if the 7th was in the Warrior career, as that is the only Career that doesn't have a Lightsaber tree that changes the Characteristic you use with your lightsaber. The problem I would see, is a redundancy where whatever Characteristic is chosen would be the same as in another lightsaber Specialization. So for that, I'm doubtful that they will include a "Juuyo/Vaapad Technique" talent like the "Makashi/Soresu/Ataru/Shien/Niiman Technique" talents.

We are talking about Palpatine a Sith Lord who Jedi Master Yoda went assassinate afterword right? If anything Mace would have been applauded, the reason Anakin turns is because he realized that the Jedi and Sith treated their enemies the same both Windu and Palpatine both said in the same movie that you must kill Palpatine or you must Kill Dooku in different words of course but Anakin decided only the Sith could save his wife.

The Jedi Order by the time of the Clone Wars had grown complacent and were completely unwilling to learn of the dark side to at least understand it however the Sith reinvented themselves and beat their ancient enemies.

Yeah that whole order was messed up. Unfortunately, they did not recover well either (Jedi massacre before TFA).

Yeah that whole order was messed up. Unfortunately, they did not recover well either (Jedi massacre before TFA).

The Jedi Massacre before TFA had nothing to do with any failings of Luke or his generation of new students, unlike the fall of the old order. It was simply a matter of there not being enough fully trained Jedi to protect the students from the First Order. Luke only had a handful of Jedi, including Students, maybe a few dozen at most, not a sizable order of thousands.

The only Jedi of Luke's academy that would have had any skill comparable to a Jedi master of old (As far as we know) would have probably been Luke himself, that order was too young and too small to defend itself if a big enough threat coming along.

The only Jedi of Luke's academy that would have had any skill comparable to a Jedi master of old (As far as we know) would have probably been Luke himself, that order was too young and too small to defend itself if a big enough threat coming along.

He may not have been the "only" one, but yes, such Jedi were at least very few.

The only Jedi of Luke's academy that would have had any skill comparable to a Jedi master of old (As far as we know) would have probably been Luke himself, that order was too young and too small to defend itself if a big enough threat coming along.

And if his most advanced student (and nephew) was the one that had turned to the dark side, and that person attacked while Luke was away, then there wouldn’t have been much hope for anyone left behind. The result would have been a lot like Anakin wiping out the younglings.

Which I think is basically the story of how it happened.

I think with Depa Billaba, a good chunk of her background got revamped when she became Kanan's master.

In the Kanan comic mini-series (which is pretty good IMHO), it's discussed that she was badly injured on a mission prior to become Kanan's master, with it later being revealed in the series that her injuries were the result of a confrontation with General Grievous. Any concerns by the Jedi Council for her well-being were not a result of a near-plunge to the dark side as was the case with the Shatterpoint novel, but her self-esteem after being so badly injured, which ultimately proved to be unfounded. While in the new canon she's still noted as having been Mace Windu's Padawan, there's zero mention of her ever learning Vaapad; instead she seems to be an expert in Form III/Soresu with no noted training in Form VII, be it Vaapad itself or the Juyo Form that was the basis for Windu's Vaapad.

The only Jedi of Luke's academy that would have had any skill comparable to a Jedi master of old (As far as we know) would have probably been Luke himself, that order was too young and too small to defend itself if a big enough threat coming along.

He may not have been the "only" one, but yes, such Jedi were at least very few.

Depending on how long Luke waited before he started training other potential Jedi, it's possible he might have had a junior-league Jedi Knight or three around, who would probably be somewhere around Obi-Wan's general level of capability in TPM. But since Kylo had plenty of backup in the form of the Knights of Ren and quite likely the First Order, a few bush league Jedi Knights probably didn't make all that much difference, especially if star pupil Ben Solo was leading the charge.

Hmm, this could be loads of fun. Alas, I seriously doubt that the Echani or the Karkarodon will be showing up in this book. I'm still very surprised that the Echani still haven't shown up.

Class wise, maybe a Mentor style spec, I agree with the possibility about a FR:3 power showing up. Thoughts on what it could be though? Maybe instead of a full power they expand options for the others.

FFG have approached this entire system with the attitude of "learn as you go". Their set up allows for self learning and discovery, so if we get Juyo/Vappad its explanation could simply be that if it's possible then anyone could rediscover it.

As for the actual spec, I think it would be interesting to have the spec be called Juyo. Have a Conflict talent in it... or two! Then have one of the signature talents (bottom row, unique ability) be Vappad.

Consular Specs:

Teacher (great suggestion)

Diplomat (good option)

Manipulator (Decietful character who plots and schemes; talents like Informant, In The Know, Twisted Words and Discredit, although probably more Force focused)

Mace had an arm chopped off by a light saber then fell out a window if Maul can survive getting chopped in half and falling down a giant shaft then Mace Windu can survive losing an arm and falling out a window.

We didn't know how talll the shaft was, but at most ot was hundreds of meters high, the fall off of the senate building alone would be enough for him to reach terminal velocity, and the Emperor's Lightning is likely enough to be able to stun you for long ilenough for Mace to die. Add the astronomically high chances he gets hit by any hover vehicle while he can't soften the blow, he is toast.

My problem with Juyo being a Tree mostly comes down to it being almost completely a Dark Side form there is no way you can stay on the light and use Juyo, without Vapaad. As Vapaad is what allows you to channel Dark side energy through you by borrowing it vicariously through your opponent. For the form to be done right to Canon standard Juyo will only be good in the hands of a Dark side user unless Vapaad is being used. However the best place I see for Vapaads inclusion would be as a Signature Ability that significantly improves your combat prowess, of course this would be a Warrior ability. Now that I think about it Vapaad is always been treated as a form you can't just use by itself, if you are untrained in Lightsaber combat all except for Vapaad and you break focus you have nothing to fall back on which makes it make more sense as a Signature ability. Whether we see it or not I'll be fine with it either way.

We didn't know how talll the shaft was, but at most ot was hundreds of meters high, the fall off of the senate building alone would be enough for him to reach terminal velocity, and the Emperor's Lightning is likely enough to be able to stun you for long ilenough for Mace to die. Add the astronomically high chances he gets hit by any hover vehicle while he can't soften the blow, he is toast.

My problem with Juyo being a Tree mostly comes down to it being almost completely a Dark Side form there is no way you can stay on the light and use Juyo, without Vapaad. As Vapaad is what allows you to channel Dark side energy through you by borrowing it vicariously through your opponent. For the form to be done right to Canon standard Juyo will only be good in the hands of a Dark side user unless Vapaad is being used. However the best place I see for Vapaads inclusion would be as a Signature Ability that significantly improves your combat prowess, of course this would be a Warrior ability. Now that I think about it Vapaad is always been treated as a form you can't just use by itself, if you are untrained in Lightsaber combat all except for Vapaad and you break focus you have nothing to fall back on which makes it make more sense as a Signature ability. Whether we see it or not I'll be fine with it either way.

I'm not sure why you keep saying it's a dark side form. It's described as aggressive and there was fear that it could lead to the dark side but it mechanically speaking isn't a dark side form. You can mimic the aggresiveness of Juyo without it making a character a darksider and it would stick true to it's portrayal in the EU (since the canon notes on it do not say anything about it of that nature). If you give it a Conflict talent it would serve just fine as a combat form that can lead you to the darkside.

But based on the source material I find little that says it is 100% a darkside form. Just that it's aggresive and unpredicable and sometimes hard to control and a favorite for most darksiders. But aggressive and unpredictable are not things that have to lead a character to the darkside. And even then if it were I think it's a wonderful thing to add to the game since playing a darksider is a perfectly valid opition in this game. So why shouldn't they get tools?

I'm not saying they shouldn't get tools just that starting fights with Juyo would be the quickest way to the dark side. It's not a dark side form but the Jedi didn't teach it because of how dangerously close it danced with it. Vapaad only softens the blow of Juyo by not making it your Darkside energy that's powering it but that of your opponent the dark side will still be flowing through you whether you use Juyo or Vapaad.

Lightsaber Form Specialisation full of Conflict talents? Yes please!

Unless it's a Brawn based tree I don't see an easy way around the need to repeat one of the 5 Form talents either.

Juyo is a dark side lightsaber style. If you like light saber trees without parry or reflect this will be the tree for you.

Its also not going to be in the consular book maybe the warrior book, more likely it will be in an adventure.

Vapaad would be a signature ability you attach to Juyo,

I'm not saying they shouldn't get tools just that starting fights with Juyo would be the quickest way to the dark side. It's not a dark side form but the Jedi didn't teach it because of how dangerously close it danced with it. Vapaad only softens the blow of Juyo by not making it your Darkside energy that's powering it but that of your opponent the dark side will still be flowing through you whether you use Juyo or Vapaad.

And? Toss in some Conflict talents. If the player takes Juyo and ends up darksider I see nothing wrong here. He knew what he was buying. I see nothing wrong with a talent tree that leans on making it hard for a PC to resist going darksider.

Nothing.at.all.

Granted based on the source material it isn't actually a dark side form, just an aggresive one. Still your points don't seem to be reasons for not having it unless we are assuming there shouldn't be specs that push a character to the limits on remaining a light side character.