PS. Tip. Don't want extras in CCG? Don't blind buy.

Oh no, I had a better idea, I just completely stopped playing CCGs.

I should say "didn't want" becasue you're still angry you had to buy these extras.

Anyway i was forced drop CCG too, at least "alive" ones because January 1st 2017 officially died last CCG i was interested in. Ironically CCG that last stand alone expansion was 100% LCG-like product with quantity/price ratio that could easily ashame any FFG Core Set released ever.

On the other hand, thank gods i still have some friends to play casually L5R with and 20F/Onyx/RoJ have enough cards to fill the gap until LCG will see daylight.

And Mark, where did you get that penguin picture you're using as your avatar? It's definitely brilliant.

It's one of their stock avatar pictures, taken from Hey That's My Fish. He's kinda my spirit animal

To a certain extent the op is just carrying out a standard troll, though it was interesting that his repost indicated that he was one of the 'ccg is best' brigade.

Who really cares though (beyond having fun showing him up) - we are going to start seeing cards and plar articles this year (all going well). I am soooo looking forward to it.

My aim here at least (and I won't speak for others) is to demonstrate two things: that that's a difference between not liking something and declaring it a mistake and not viable, and that while I have and will continue to share my love and passion for L5R with as many people as possible, well, the game/brand isn't for everyone, and I'm at peace with that.

Mark

Thanks. Drat, I even have that game.

Thankfully FFG have full time well paid pro testers! And i heard they are as good as they quality control guys.

Man I got ripped off in playtesting because I spent money out of pocket and spent an extra 10-15 hours per week and never got a paycheck.

Thankfully FFG have full time well paid pro testers! And i heard they are as good as they quality control guys.

Man I got ripped off in playtesting because I spent money out of pocket and spent an extra 10-15 hours per week and never got a paycheck.

Cool story, bro.

Oh how wrong you are. First off they cant keep the mechanics as the bought the brand and the mechanics are not covered. Perhaps. They will manage it but considering my 30 yrlears in card games and the number of games i. Have seen fail after changing hands or a major mechanic shift. I speak from experience of games. Ccgs make deck design and evolution of play part based on skill and part on contributions .ie buying the game. Every lcg ive played had copycat decks no real community and no pick up games. I have never gone into any of the lgs near me and seen anyone playing lcgs my group experminted with game of thrones . w40k conquest and lotr. And we. Unanimously found they lacked depth and enjoyment. Asside from a few silly card interactions we boiled down the mechanics and worked out from within a few turns in multiplayer who would win everytime.. Ill keep an eye out and i hope im wrong but 40k to conquest. Became a ranged game with much less tactical meaning . game of thrones was far to predictable. And lotr we found dull...

All you've done is further cement to us you don't know what you're talking about. Thanks for making an account just to write garbage posts, though.

As i loved this Netrunner (most succesful competetive LCG ever) example from last Worlds. Please smartguy show me any example of L5R Euro/Worlds or even Kotei level results where 14 out of 16 decks in Top16 were same faction or even decktype. That things never happened in L5R. Even if single Clan dominated fe Kotei season, there was always variety in Tops becasue thankfuly L5R CCG was not infected with true bandwagoning disease (everyone play Unicorn!) like other CCGs.

And i'm pretty sure LCG version will kill this part of L5R card gaming at least at Nationals/Continental level.

I'm also really sorry you played with or against identical T1 decks. Now i imagine how poor was your L5R CCG experience then. I'm really happy that european (french, polish, german etc) environment was full of various succesful experimentators.

Finding the actual decklists and results is more work, honestly, than I care to do to win this argument. So, instead, I will hold up an iconic example (Khol Wall) and a recent example (Shika Sensei Mantis). If you played during Lotus Edition, then you remember the sheer POWER of the Khol Wall decks, and the Kotei Season of Unicorn Victories that was a direct result of it. The Khol Wall attracted a huge bandwagon following, and if you were getting into the Finals of a Regional or higher tournament? You either had a deck that BEAT the Khol Wall, or you had a Khol Wall deck. Same thing happened with the Shika Sensei Mantis. Either you had a deck which could beat Shika Mantis, or you ran Shika Mantis.

L5R does have a factionalism that combats bandwagoning, however. That factionalism is NOT rooted in the mechanics of a CCG. It is rooted in the community of players surrounding the game.

LCGs are no more or less factionalized than CCGs. You do not see the same sort of faction loyalty in Magic players, Yu-gi-oh! players or Pokemon players, do you? Or even in dead CCGs, like Vampire: the Eternal Struggle or Babylon 5.

Legend of the Five Rings was, and is, a unique beast in that degree. Its factionalism is at once the best, and the worst, part of the game. It creates the amazing community (which still persists!), but it also creates the inherent barrier to entry. What is described as a problem with LCGs is not something inherent to the distribution model. It is partially design, and partially community. And that is the challenge FFG is facing. How do they leverage the power of L5R's factionalism without letting that hold the game back.

As i loved this Netrunner (most succesful competetive LCG ever) example from last Worlds. Please smartguy show me any example of L5R Euro/Worlds or even Kotei level results where 14 out of 16 decks in Top16 were same faction or even decktype. That things never happened in L5R. Even if single Clan dominated fe Kotei season, there was always variety in Tops becasue thankfuly L5R CCG was not infected with true bandwagoning disease (everyone play Unicorn!) like other CCGs.

And i'm pretty sure LCG version will kill this part of L5R card gaming at least at Nationals/Continental level.

I'm also really sorry you played with or against identical T1 decks. Now i imagine how poor was your L5R CCG experience then. I'm really happy that european (french, polish, german etc) environment was full of various succesful experimentators.

Finding the actual decklists and results is more work, honestly, than I care to do to win this argument. So, instead, I will hold up an iconic example (Khol Wall) and a recent example (Shika Sensei Mantis). If you played during Lotus Edition, then you remember the sheer POWER of the Khol Wall decks, and the Kotei Season of Unicorn Victories that was a direct result of it. The Khol Wall attracted a huge bandwagon following, and if you were getting into the Finals of a Regional or higher tournament? You either had a deck that BEAT the Khol Wall, or you had a Khol Wall deck. Same thing happened with the Shika Sensei Mantis. Either you had a deck which could beat Shika Mantis, or you ran Shika Mantis.

In Europe where Kempy plays, Shika Sensei Mantis decks were not the norm. Unicorn and Crane Standing Fast decks took long wet dumps all over Shika Mantis.

In Europe where Kempy plays, Shika Sensei Mantis decks were not the norm. Unicorn and Crane Standing Fast decks took long wet dumps all over Shika Mantis.

And that is a result of good game design, not the difference between an LCG and CCG. The only design difference between an LCG and a CCG is, ultimately, distribution of cards and how many cards are in the environment. LCGs have a smaller starting pool of cards, but not a smaller amount of cards people play.

In Europe where Kempy plays, Shika Sensei Mantis decks were not the norm. Unicorn and Crane Standing Fast decks took long wet dumps all over Shika Mantis.

Three Polish Kotei in 2015 were conquered by following decks: Crane fatboys, Lion aggro and Dragon kensai.

---

@ sndwurks

Ok pal, you have your own opinion about LCG i have my own. I'm following various LCG games since A:NR and besides distribution model i found bandwagoning and lack of factionalismin these games nearly nonexistent comparing to what i knew from L5R. And it's, in my opinion, result of two things: 1) cardpool that determines straight 2-3 nearly identical Tier 1 decks that demolishes tourney scene in first 0,5-1 year of game, 2) overall boredom of playing nearly identical clan/faction/type decks, so people experiment and play everything they think is playable because they can.

Most LCG players are people sticked to FFG, migrating from one LCG game to another and they bring these habits with them.

I'm not talking it's bad becasue fun is fun, but it's complete negation of L5R card gaming i know and followed by years.

And as for me L5R is a game of Clan of your personal choice i think that selling game to FFG that want to release it as LCG was one of the biggest mistakes in history of L5R. Chosing completely different publisher that could maximize their full power to single game (like AEG did many, many years ago) should be better for game than giving it into hands of company that will treat it like another one in line of fresh products. Until they announce another LCG with catchy license for 2018.

Personally I'll be happy about not having so many extras of unplayable cards. What I like about LCGs is that the most you have of unplayable cards is three-of.

There were two options what to do with extras in CCG:

1) trashcan

2) dump them into box in nearest store where all wanna-be new players would take them from to built theirs first peasant/bushi style decks.

Your option 2 sounds dismissive but I had great success in getting new players with our Free Box.

Kempy, just to be clear, it certainly seems like the options AEG had were sell the game to FFG or cease publishing it. They may sugercoat that fact, but ultimately the game was doomed if it stayed with AEG. You may see it as a mistake, but if the choice is between some game and no game, I'll take the mistake every day of the week and twice at weekends.

Also, while I didn't play Netrunner, I have definitely seen faction favourtism in Game of Thrones, and have already talked to a lot of the local players about trying out L5R - picking a clan is something they rate very highly as part of the appeal.

Mark

this is true. everybody would have like for the game to stay at aeg with no mechanics changes, same or better art, storylines etc. but thats not how the world works. the game was choked and spiraling downwards in every way. the world doesnt work the way anyone wants it to work (especially not kempy), but the way it works. so between no game and refreshed lcg model by more or less the only successful company in card game industry except wotc, the latter is better.

i really see no point in arguing what should have been done (in the opinion of few members of the community) because its too late for that. i mean seriously whats the point now. also most of the arguments are plain wrong. go on cry in your corner how things are not the way you want them to be or how you THINK they should be, but leave your toxic attitude away from the rest of the community, becaause its so annoying and unhelpful.

the game was choked and spiraling downwards in every way.

I hope you played enough Onyx Arc games to found that this environment/card design was just so refreshing and enjoyable comparing to dumbness of first part of Ivory Arc that scared many players (so called "force pump" edition). I just believe that Onyx would be a kind of revival for L5R like Samurai was after mass exodus of Lotus. Because playing Onyx gave me same warm feelings i had during SE/CE.

And in short words, as i don't like FFG business/design model i just hope:

1) they change many FFG-ish things radically just in case of L5R or

2) this LCG will be complete unplayable disaster so they they will start looking to license IP to another company as fast as it's possible.

People waited 2 years, they can wait another 10.

@Mark

My observations tell me that most loyal actual AGoT players are ones that come from L5R and also longtime fans who remember AGoT's CCG roots. Most of fresh people who started with 2nd edition or just migrated from other LCGs (like from CoC, SW or Conquest) just play in tournaments what seems to be best at the moment.

the game was choked and spiraling downwards in every way.

I hope you played enough Onyx Arc games to found that this environment/card design was just so refreshing and enjoyable comparing to dumbness of first part of Ivory Arc that scared many players (so called "force pump" edition). I just believe that Onyx would be a kind of revival for L5R like Samurai was after mass exodus of Lotus. Because playing Onyx gave me same warm feelings i had during SE/CE.

i completely agree on this point, onyx was a welcome refreshment in every way, it looked like there is a 360 change in the way that aeg treated l5r. but it turned out the way it did, seems it was not enough. you should actually be angry at aeg for abandoning a (sinking) ship instead of ffg for trying to do their best in the way they see fit.

@ sndwurks

Ok pal, you have your own opinion about LCG i have my own. I'm following various LCG games since A:NR and besides distribution model i found bandwagoning and lack of factionalismin these games nearly nonexistent comparing to what i knew from L5R. And it's, in my opinion, result of two things: 1) cardpool that determines straight 2-3 nearly identical Tier 1 decks that demolishes tourney scene in first 0,5-1 year of game, 2) overall boredom of playing nearly identical clan/faction/type decks, so people experiment and play everything they think is playable because they can.

Most LCG players are people sticked to FFG, migrating from one LCG game to another and they bring these habits with them.

I'm not talking it's bad becasue fun is fun, but it's complete negation of L5R card gaming i know and followed by years.

And as for me L5R is a game of Clan of your personal choice i think that selling game to FFG that want to release it as LCG was one of the biggest mistakes in history of L5R. Chosing completely different publisher that could maximize their full power to single game (like AEG did many, many years ago) should be better for game than giving it into hands of company that will treat it like another one in line of fresh products. Until they announce another LCG with catchy license for 2018.

This sounds more like problems with FFG, lack of deep game design, and the community than the LCG model. What Mark has pointed out earlier is true. AEG had not been making money on L5R in YEARS. The CCG is not an easily sustainable format of distribution for a game, and the market has, simply, changed. Look at how many CCGs have died. Seriously. L5R CCG emerged out of that pack for two reasons: Faction Loyalty and Interactive Story. While, at times, it was also strategic and design depth, what kept L5R alive and kicking was ultimately the idea that you have a Clan, and if you win big? You win stuff for your Clan. In-Group / Out-Group psychology is a VASTLY powerful motivator hardwired into humanity, and it fills us with a sense of community and common good. This is what made L5R CCG successful, not its distribution model.

L5R CCG was NOT MAKING MONEY. It had not been making money in YEARS. AEG could no longer afford pouring money into hole of L5R, and were beginning to consider radical thoughts on what to do with it. In fact, if you listen to this podcast ( http://oneshotpodcast.com/podcasts/011-talking-with-john-zinser/ ), John Zinser explains that what prompted the sale was a conversation between him and Steven Horvath (the VP of Organized Play at FFG and a former Brand Manager of L5R while it was owned by Wizards of the Coast) (oh, and also Top 4 at the Second Day of Thunder tournament at GenCon 1997, and the guy who taught Bryan Reese, the head designer of L5R for years, how to PLAY L5R, in case you have doubts as to this guy's loyalty to the game) about AEG distributing L5R Onyx Edition as an Expandable Card Game (which is an LCG without violating copyright). AEG was going to switch over to the LCG model for L5R because it is BETTER BUSINESS. It is a more sustainable model of distribution than the CCG.

Look at the player base (i.e. consumer base, business wise) of Magic the Gathering or Pokemon. Now consider the cost of a manufacturer to produce a single CCG card. There is the cost for the design process, for the lay out, for playtesting, for the artwork (which is not cheap, even if CCG and LCG producing companies are notorious for paying their artists insulting little for their work), for the test print runs, for the actual print runs, and then for importing the physical product and distributing it. Every card you print as a gaming company is a massive expense, and CCGs are only profitable when you have people spending thousands of dollars buying millions of useless cards. L5R simply did not have the player base to sustain that model of distribution, and it failed to get it back in Ivory. Regardless of how good Onyx edition would have been for gameplay, it was killing AEG to produce it.

While I completely agree with you about L5R CCG being a game of "Pick your Clan and play!", that was not always true in the competitive scene in the United States and is actually a very unfair proposal when you add to it the idea of storyline interaction. I say this as someone who played Naga, dallied for a time with Phoenix and Mantis before finally settling in on the Spider Clan. I played Spider in just about every Kotei and GenCon I could, knowing it was not a top tier, tournament winning deck. The depth of L5R CCG was in allowing PLAYER INTERACTION to be a powerful force in the game, and that was a strength of game design, not distribution model. As long as L5R LCG is a game with enough design finesse that a skilled player will beat the unskilled player 4 out of 5 times in a mirror match or better, I will be happy. I will be bloody ecstatic if the game gives me 8 factions that are all balanced with each other and each can muster a tournament level deck which feels iconic to their faction, but can still win, but let's be honest. L5R CCG never had that. At best, it had 5 decks across 4 factions which could win tournaments of 100+ players. It just had a depth of player interaction with the mechanics of the game to favor skill over luck of the draw, which is something created by game design not distribution.

Finally, I actually do share some of your reservations about the organized play community of FFG. I have seen the same bandwagonning and lack of Faction Loyalty in FFG's LCGs that you describe. The solution is not, however, the CCG model. The solution is an interactive storyline driven organized play environment. The moment you create a system of rewards for Faction Loyalty, you make that same loyalty a big part of the game. Combine that with the depth of play where skill-driven success outweighs net-decking and luck of the draw, and you create an environment where players develop the same Faction Loyalty we saw develop in the L5R CCG. The only challenge that an LCG faces compared to a CCG is a smaller initial card pool to draw from, but the scarcity model of CCGs does not fix that.

Face it, if you were already not blind buying booster packs and starter decks, hoping to pull cards randomly to win, and instead buying sets you knew their contents of and buying your singles online? If you were not playing L5R CCG Draft regularly?

You were already playing L5R as an LCG.

Your problems are with FFG and its organized play community and lack of game play depth, not the LCG distribution model. Which is a totally fair and reasonable stance. All I can do with that is tell you that I have interviewed Steve Horvath about L5R in the past, and he is as passionate about the L5R and its success as I have seen anyone be, save perhaps Reggie. It takes something extra to dress up with face paint and scream players into a fan frenzy.

@ sndwurks

Ok pal, you have your own opinion about LCG i have my own. I'm following various LCG games since A:NR and besides distribution model i found bandwagoning and lack of factionalismin these games nearly nonexistent comparing to what i knew from L5R. And it's, in my opinion, result of two things: 1) cardpool that determines straight 2-3 nearly identical Tier 1 decks that demolishes tourney scene in first 0,5-1 year of game, 2) overall boredom of playing nearly identical clan/faction/type decks, so people experiment and play everything they think is playable because they can.

Most LCG players are people sticked to FFG, migrating from one LCG game to another and they bring these habits with them.

I'm not talking it's bad becasue fun is fun, but it's complete negation of L5R card gaming i know and followed by years.

And as for me L5R is a game of Clan of your personal choice i think that selling game to FFG that want to release it as LCG was one of the biggest mistakes in history of L5R. Chosing completely different publisher that could maximize their full power to single game (like AEG did many, many years ago) should be better for game than giving it into hands of company that will treat it like another one in line of fresh products. Until they announce another LCG with catchy license for 2018.

This sounds more like problems with FFG, lack of deep game design, and the community than the LCG model. What Mark has pointed out earlier is true. AEG had not been making money on L5R in YEARS. The CCG is not an easily sustainable format of distribution for a game, and the market has, simply, changed. Look at how many CCGs have died. Seriously. L5R CCG emerged out of that pack for two reasons: Faction Loyalty and Interactive Story. While, at times, it was also strategic and design depth, what kept L5R alive and kicking was ultimately the idea that you have a Clan, and if you win big? You win stuff for your Clan. In-Group / Out-Group psychology is a VASTLY powerful motivator hardwired into humanity, and it fills us with a sense of community and common good. This is what made L5R CCG successful, not its distribution model.

L5R CCG was NOT MAKING MONEY. It had not been making money in YEARS. AEG could no longer afford pouring money into hole of L5R, and were beginning to consider radical thoughts on what to do with it. In fact, if you listen to this podcast ( http://oneshotpodcast.com/podcasts/011-talking-with-john-zinser/ ), John Zinser explains that what prompted the sale was a conversation between him and Steven Horvath (the VP of Organized Play at FFG and a former Brand Manager of L5R while it was owned by Wizards of the Coast) (oh, and also Top 4 at the Second Day of Thunder tournament at GenCon 1997, and the guy who taught Bryan Reese, the head designer of L5R for years, how to PLAY L5R, in case you have doubts as to this guy's loyalty to the game) about AEG distributing L5R Onyx Edition as an Expandable Card Game (which is an LCG without violating copyright). AEG was going to switch over to the LCG model for L5R because it is BETTER BUSINESS. It is a more sustainable model of distribution than the CCG.

Look at the player base (i.e. consumer base, business wise) of Magic the Gathering or Pokemon. Now consider the cost of a manufacturer to produce a single CCG card. There is the cost for the design process, for the lay out, for playtesting, for the artwork (which is not cheap, even if CCG and LCG producing companies are notorious for paying their artists insulting little for their work), for the test print runs, for the actual print runs, and then for importing the physical product and distributing it. Every card you print as a gaming company is a massive expense, and CCGs are only profitable when you have people spending thousands of dollars buying millions of useless cards. L5R simply did not have the player base to sustain that model of distribution, and it failed to get it back in Ivory. Regardless of how good Onyx edition would have been for gameplay, it was killing AEG to produce it.

While I completely agree with you about L5R CCG being a game of "Pick your Clan and play!", that was not always true in the competitive scene in the United States and is actually a very unfair proposal when you add to it the idea of storyline interaction. I say this as someone who played Naga, dallied for a time with Phoenix and Mantis before finally settling in on the Spider Clan. I played Spider in just about every Kotei and GenCon I could, knowing it was not a top tier, tournament winning deck. The depth of L5R CCG was in allowing PLAYER INTERACTION to be a powerful force in the game, and that was a strength of game design, not distribution model. As long as L5R LCG is a game with enough design finesse that a skilled player will beat the unskilled player 4 out of 5 times in a mirror match or better, I will be happy. I will be bloody ecstatic if the game gives me 8 factions that are all balanced with each other and each can muster a tournament level deck which feels iconic to their faction, but can still win, but let's be honest. L5R CCG never had that. At best, it had 5 decks across 4 factions which could win tournaments of 100+ players. It just had a depth of player interaction with the mechanics of the game to favor skill over luck of the draw, which is something created by game design not distribution.

Finally, I actually do share some of your reservations about the organized play community of FFG. I have seen the same bandwagonning and lack of Faction Loyalty in FFG's LCGs that you describe. The solution is not, however, the CCG model. The solution is an interactive storyline driven organized play environment. The moment you create a system of rewards for Faction Loyalty, you make that same loyalty a big part of the game. Combine that with the depth of play where skill-driven success outweighs net-decking and luck of the draw, and you create an environment where players develop the same Faction Loyalty we saw develop in the L5R CCG. The only challenge that an LCG faces compared to a CCG is a smaller initial card pool to draw from, but the scarcity model of CCGs does not fix that.

Face it, if you were already not blind buying booster packs and starter decks, hoping to pull cards randomly to win, and instead buying sets you knew their contents of and buying your singles online? If you were not playing L5R CCG Draft regularly?

You were already playing L5R as an LCG.

Your problems are with FFG and its organized play community and lack of game play depth, not the LCG distribution model. Which is a totally fair and reasonable stance. All I can do with that is tell you that I have interviewed Steve Horvath about L5R in the past, and he is as passionate about the L5R and its success as I have seen anyone be, save perhaps Reggie. It takes something extra to dress up with face paint and scream players into a fan frenzy.

May I marry you? I mean, I could contribute to the thread, but I couldn't even bring.... oh crap, I don't even know what to say, you left me speechless.

What do we actually know about the purchase? Like what details have been released to the public? We have some kind of vague descriptions here, and on other threads:

I am going to try to dissect your argument and answer each of your points...

Oh how wrong you are. First off they cant keep the mechanics as the bought the brand and the mechanics are not covered.

Actually, they did buy the mechanics. They bought the whole game. They own the mechanics, the art, the symbols, the graphic design, the intellectual property, the RPG, all RPG rights. They even own Clan Wars and L5R Disc Wars.

The fact that FFG has bought the entire IP makes me think they'll develop it on multiple platforms, which can only be good for them, the game, and bad for our wallets.

As someone already said, FFG didn't just both the brand, they bought they whole IP, including the mechanics (CCG and RPG), so yes, we're right on this. I suggest you dig a little more on this topic. You basically think that AEG sold the rights, but it's the whole intellectual property, which means that AEG cannot say anything about what FFG keeps or drops.

But what was actually sold and acquired? Copyrighted material? Trademarks? Patents?

I'm no lawyer, but I did a little research. Apparently you can copyright rulebooks, but not not rules; you can copyright the presentation of the rules, but the rules/mechanics themselves. However, you can patent processes, including the steps to play a game. That's the extent of my knowledge. Hopefully someone can sort us out.

this is true. everybody would have like for the game to stay at aeg with no mechanics changes, same or better art, storylines etc. [...]

i really see no point in arguing what should have been done [...]

Stay the same: Not me! I'm psyched about this transition. Like I'm really looking forward to it. (Can't tell if you're being sarcastic)

Arguing: ... well then what I am I supposed to do with all my opinions? Just keep them to myself? Seems like a waste of a good opinion. And what about all the wrong people who are having badwrongfun?

Okay, onto factionalism:

Finally, I actually do share some of your reservations about the organized play community of FFG. I have seen the same bandwagonning and lack of Faction Loyalty in FFG's LCGs that you describe. The solution is not, however, the CCG model. The solution is an interactive storyline driven organized play environment. The moment you create a system of rewards for Faction Loyalty, you make that same loyalty a big part of the game. Combine that with the depth of play where skill-driven success outweighs net-decking and luck of the draw, and you create an environment where players develop the same Faction Loyalty we saw develop in the L5R CCG.

I really really hope that players can pick and stick with a faction. And I think you're right that loyalty incentives are important. And a big loyalty incentive, at least for me, is viability, i.e. winning. I suspect that factionalism of players brought in by the new release will depend as much on winning as it did on lore. When I was new to the CCG, the only reason I didn't ask "What clan will win?" is because I assumed the game was balanced among the factions (it wasn't), and I was coming from the RPG, so I already had attachments to clans.

Though I'm guessing faction loyalty is profitable only up to a point. Sure, deluxe boxes feature a limited number of factions, but then you want more cards. So then you go buy new packs, and you end up with a bunch of factions. So to get all the cards, you end up spending money on a lot of factions. If one player=one faction=1/9 of the cards, that seems like a good way to sink a game.

And as for success, let's not underestimate good marketing.

But hey, we have no numbers. We're all just guessing from personal anecdotes.

L5R CCG was NOT MAKING MONEY. It had not been making money in YEARS. AEG could no longer afford pouring money into hole of L5R, and were beginning to consider radical thoughts on what to do with it. In fact, if you listen to this podcast ( http://oneshotpodcas...th-john-zinser/ ),

My reception of this and other interviews is rather different. As i can't believe that company could keep something that generates only losses for years I just have feeling hat L5R wasn't "printing money" anymore. In other words - it wasn't "easy" money like fe 10-15 years ago. It was still profitable, but for less and less margin. That was dead circle, becasue Zinser didn't want to invest and this lack of this invest killed game. From last Brian interview we got a picture that for few years L5R was managed by literally two full-paid guys only + bunch of volunteers.

For your curiosity, just few days after 9.11 i started looking through stores for completing some L5R stuff and realized that base Twenty Festivals products were non existent locally. I mean ThA boosters were available but 20F starters/boosters were gone. Till today i don't know that lack of 20F stuff was result of less interest of distributors, minimized AEG printing or just was sold easily so nothing left.

AEG was going to switch over to the LCG model for L5R because it is BETTER BUSINESS. It is a more sustainable model of distribution than the CCG.

But as we know AEG they could take another risk and instead copying FFG system (that failed for them in case of Doomtown: Reladed) they could surprise us again with introducing starter-like system as in CCG. Could you even imagine extended version of Emperor Edition Gempukku starters? And huge fixed expansions like they did with DtP sets? There were many ways to enter LCG with old L5R CCG feeling.

But they just chosen easiest way.

Btw and, as it's my only personal opinion, i think AEG is going to be closed or sold completely in few years. I think John reached critical point of his life and he thinks about complete retirement from this business. Sellling L5R was just first crucial step of this process. So that's why we see something like printing his "last wishes" like this "break me card game" which is totally nonsense and looks like realisation of old whim.

This is what made L5R CCG successful, not its distribution model.

If you read many interviews of L5R people or just talk with many players one thing is common in most cases. Theit "loyalty" was mostly determined by first important step: buying X CLAN STARTER. Something that CCGs, especially L5R, was well known for.

In LCG you're hit with all-factions box in your face at the start. There's no way to make a radical choice, everything is tempting so loyalty is going to be blurred from the start.

At best, it had 5 decks across 4 factions which could win tournaments of 100+ players. It just had a depth of player interaction with the mechanics of the game to favor skill over luck of the draw, which is something created by game design not distribution.

Huge card pool was leaving MUCH MORE space for experimenting and SURPRISE factor. Including 2-3 playsets of less ot totally uknnown cards of any rarity (gosh how many times single commons were totally game braking in L5R!) could be enough to make some surprise build or idea inside one Clan.

Just imagine i could easily built 5 completely various and homogenic Lion builds from Onyx Arc cardbase. I mean if Onyx could be released i had 5 100% Lion options to fight in tournament environment. Thanks to cardpool.

FFG LCG systems supports mixing factions. Illusion of variety is created by possibility of mixing various "colors" cards in less or more available way. Something that from the beginning is NEGATION of "old" L5R where "super friends" decks were raririty becasue of mechanical restrictions.

But even it doesn't protect from boredom of many builds, becasue so many, so many cards (mostly from Core Sets) are staple for years.

Face it, if you were already not blind buying booster packs and starter decks, hoping to pull cards randomly to win, and instead buying sets you knew their contents of and buying your singles online? If you were not playing L5R CCG Draft regularly?

You were already playing L5R as an LCG.

It's complete false statement.

First in LCG you're FORCED to buy cards you'll never use. If from 60 cards pack you need only 2-3 copies of single clan cards, all rest is wasted piece of paper. You can't skip this.

Second in CCG there's no magical space where single cards came from. Someone i was buying these single cards from just invested money to buy product and sell it in way to make it profitable. So if i pay money worth of 3 boosters for only one card this money will return to producent, i just used smarty broker instead my (lack) of luck.

Personally i was buying boxes when i had local playgroup and we shared these purchases. Becasue TCG is social stuff i had many option to use these "spare" cards. We could drop them into store box, play internal drafts or even Suicide games, we could build proxy free gauntlet decks to play against, we could enjoy alternate Bushi/Modern formats, we could create FEW parallel Clan decks without increased costs (where in LCG every second clan/faction deck will cost you at least 3xCS).

When i became lonewolf i stopped it becasue it had no sense to blind buy without these options i mentioned above. If i could gather playgroup again i could back to shared blind buying because in stable playgroup these increased costs may be easily turned into benefits.

What do we actually know about the purchase? Like what details have been released to the public? We have some kind of vague descriptions here, and on other threads:

But what was actually sold and acquired? Copyrighted material? Trademarks? Patents?

I'm no lawyer, but I did a little research. Apparently you can copyright rulebooks, but not not rules; you can copyright the presentation of the rules, but the rules/mechanics themselves. However, you can patent processes, including the steps to play a game. That's the extent of my knowledge. Hopefully someone can sort us out.

I have personally cobbled what I know about the sale from a combination of official releases, interviews with John Zinser, David Laderoute, and Steven Horvath, as well as my own personal investigations as a member of the Traditional Gaming Press heavily involved with L5R. I have conducted several interviews with the people involved with L5R, both before and after the sale, as well as several artists, designers and writers involved in the game.

You are correct in your research, and in your statement that nothing OFFICIAL has been released. However, from the impression given by John Zinser, David Laderoute, and Steven Horvath, as well as those off-the-record conversations I have had with industry people, it would appear that the sale was for literally EVERYTHING L5R related. The closest analogue to this was back when AEG sold the Five Rings Publishing Group to Wizards of the Coast, transferring ownership of the IP to that company. Even when AEG bought it back, it was not as complete of a sale as that sale, or this sale. Once again? Steven Horvath was involved as the buyer of each sale, which is important to keep in mind.

So, what does FFG own of L5R? They own the entire Legend of the Five Rings IP. This means they own every card ever published or created for the CCG. This is why AEG was not legally allowed to sell the Evil Portents expansion and quite literally GAVE IT AWAY TO DISTRIBUTORS. This is why all those leaks of L5R cards from The Blackest Storm, Onyx Edition and other sets are violations of FFG's copyrights and not AEG's. FFG also owns every single piece of L5R artwork once owned by AEG, though the artists who made the unreleased artwork still got paid under AEG. Their contracts were with AEG, and most included time clauses on when they would be able to sell and display prints of Onyx Edition artwork. FFG, specifically, does not usually allow the printing and sale of any artwork they commission, and thus own. FFG owns the RPG, which means they own the royalties on every retail copy sold from 1st Edition through 4th Edition, and can hold a DriveThruRPG sale when they want to test the waters on the RPG's interest (because that was what that sale back a few months ago was, it was literally FFG testing the waters of the RPG, so if you love the RPG, please tell me you bought something). FFG also owns Clan War and Disk Wars.

The big reveal on this was during the AEG Warehouse Sale recently. They literally had to dump all physical stock they had of L5R related material, or start paying FFG for it. FFG likely passed on buying it wholesale, since it would not be likely that they would make any money on selling it directly. Anything L5R related that was not purchased during that Warehouse Sale? Was very likely destroyed, with both companies splitting the "lost product" cost.

You are correct that you cannot copyright the mechanics of a game. You can, however, own the Intellectual Property of a game, which CAN extend to its mechanics. While Richard Garfield owns the patent for "manipulating the physical position of a card to designate its use", all Wizards of the Coast can do is copyright the term "Tapping a card". The L5R IP extends to the concept of "bowing a card", as well as "Great Clan Samurai", "Shadowlands", and various other mechanics inherent to the game. The two deck, tilting a card, you take an action then I take an action parts of L5R CCG cannot be copyrighted, however, and ANYONE can use them.

[several good arguments that I am snipping only for brevity's sake.]

Regarding the state of L5R CCG and its distribution at the end of its life? While no one has EVER breathed a word of this, and for many reasons they would not, there is a strong evidence based case to be made that AEG was staggering the print runs of their product in order to use the money from sales to distributors to pay for the print runs of their product they just sold. This would lead to some distributors getting their product on the first run, some months later, and some months after that. AEG likely had a list of distributors they changed slightly with every expansion, just to keep the ball rolling. This would lead to some distributors having six month delays without product, which in turn lead to declining sales at those stores, which lead to those stores not stocking it. I personally made it a matter of habit to hit 6 local stores in the US (I live in New England, so I have that option, and yes it is a place of privilege), find out when they would have their stock in, and go with that store. Of the 6 local stores I would hit? There were 4 different distributors. The two stores on 1 distributor would always get their product first, usually before the street date. The other 4 stores would get their product anywhere from one month to six months after street date. Again, at the time, I was doing gaming journalism, and this was something I was actively investigating.

This deceptive practice only makes sense if the company is genuinely struggling to make ends meet on their product. What should be their flagship money maker had been failing for years. It took the profits from the rest of the company to keep L5R afloat.

Regarding Doomtown: Reloaded and the LCG model? Actually, it worked for them. They even talk about it in that interview I linked in my previous post. Doomtown: Reloaded was enough of a success that they were going to move L5R over to that model, which means that it was MORE SUCCESSFUL than L5R CCG, and that is with paying royalties to the company that owned the Doomtown / Deadlands IP. The reason AEG shuttered Doomtown: Reloaded when it did had nothing to do with its success as an LCG. It was a marketing pivot by AEG, moving out of the Collectible Card Game (LCG or CCG) market entirely. They went through the end of their run which was in production in the fiscal year of the L5R sale, and chose not to continue it into the next fiscal year to refocus their resources. While CCGs take more money to produce than an LCG, an LCG takes more money to produce than a board game, or a card game like Mystic Vale. The current profits for a company like AEG lies in board games and games like Love Letter, Mystic Vale, Smash Up, and Valley of the Kings. FFG owns its own means of production for LCGs, which is why they are able to produce them at a much lower cost than someone like AEG who has to outsource those resources.

Regarding Card Pool, I will agree that the chief challenge facing L5R LCG is reaching that Card Pool Saturation Point fast where you can actively reward Faction Loyalty without it being a crippling weakness. Still, I do not have the same rose-colored glasses you had about the L5R card pool. I merely need to go to my personal collection of cards, and see all the cards that I have owned which I have never played outside of a Draft Deck, and remember that in Ivory Edition? I literally changed my Dynasty Deck from Crane to Phoenix just before a Kotei, and still placed the same as I had in a tournament in the same crowd two weeks prior. I remember Speed Mantis being the deck to beat for years because of its incredible economic boost in the early game. I do not remember L5R CCG with as positive of an experience as you, and that might be due to local community as much as anything else. New England is an intensely competitive environment in L5R, and playing actively in the competitive CCG scene here made me a vastly better L5R players as a result.

I bought every Pine Box and Saddle Bag of Doomtown: Reloaded, and still own less useless cards than I do from playing L5R co-currently. I had built decks for every faction in Doomtown, though I played Eagle Wardens in every tournament I could (I just loved their mechanics, and being First Nations in real life does not hurt). And a bunch of my worthless L5R cards were from tournament wins (Who wants another set of foil uncommons from the latest expansion set? This is my fourth). Still? As an active LCG player with a community and an active CCG player with a community, I still accumulated more worthless CCG cards over the same time period than LCG cards. Add to that? I mostly played in L5R CCG Draft towards the end because I perform better there than I do in purely constructed.

I kind of actually would like to see L5R LCG released as a "Choose your starter!" game as well. Have each Clan / Main Playable Faction (I have made an argument for there being only 4 CENTRAL Factions in the initial release, along with 4 secondary factions which you can build a deck for with limited options, in the past) have a Starter Deck which is pre-constructed and balanced against the other decks. I think that would be an excellent way of channeling the old appeal. Again, this is not an artifact of the CCG model, it is just a specific aspect of the "Starter Set Distribution" that has not yet been explored by a company releasing an LCG. I think that that would be an amazing way to start the game out on the right foot, promoting the Faction Loyalty which drives the community.

Regarding Doomtown: Reloaded and the LCG model? Actually, it worked for them. They even talk about it in that interview I linked in my previous post. Doomtown: Reloaded was enough of a success that they were going to move L5R over to that model, which means that it was MORE SUCCESSFUL than L5R CCG, and that is with paying royalties to the company that owned the Doomtown / Deadlands IP. The reason AEG shuttered Doomtown: Reloaded when it did had nothing to do with its success as an LCG.

John Zinser It was a straight dollars and cents decision boys. Doomtown was not making money. It happens. L5R was a different matter. AEG needed to morph as a business and every time we tried L5R suffered for lack of focus on it. L5R was not easy money. It was hard rewarding work but you could NEVER take your eye of the ball from design to story to support. We were hoping the ECG thing would allow us to do boxed games and continue to do the style games we love and started with. If DT were making the smallest of profit we would have continued as long as we could. It's a bummer and we are sorry it had to end but I don't think it was anyone's fault. There are a lot of amazing game choices out there and you need a lot of things to align for a CCG or ECG to gather a big enough following to survive.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/DoomtownCCG/permalink/10154157719606181/?comment_id=10154163454326181&comment_tracking=%7B%22tn%22%3A%22R%22%7D

Guess I had heard wrong about the Doomtown: Reloaded ECG's success. However, this does also confirm that L5R, as AEG was running it, was not worth the time and money they were sinking into it, from a business standpoint.

Personally, I still hope that FFG released L5R as an LCG succeeds. I doubt releasing it as a CCG in the current environment would, but if you want to see it move in that direction? Buy FFG's latest CCG product for Star Wars. Businesses make decisions based on money. As much as L5R was a labor of love for John Zinser, AEG did not have the money to keep it successful that FFG has.

Actually, they did buy the mechanics. They bought the whole game. They own the mechanics, the art, the symbols, the graphic design, the intellectual property, the RPG, all RPG rights. They even own Clan Wars and L5R Disc Wars.

I was bummed when Warhammer Disk Wars was canceled. I hope they will try again with the L5R property assuming the LCG (and I assume RPG) is successful. L5R seems like a really unique fantasy setting that could be a good substitute for Warhammer.

Actually, they did buy the mechanics. They bought the whole game. They own the mechanics, the art, the symbols, the graphic design, the intellectual property, the RPG, all RPG rights. They even own Clan Wars and L5R Disc Wars.

I was bummed when Warhammer Disk Wars was canceled. I hope they will try again with the L5R property assuming the LCG (and I assume RPG) is successful. L5R seems like a really unique fantasy setting that could be a good substitute for Warhammer.

As FFG is known for recycling/lifting same mechanics and games for years ther're chances they will bring some kind of Discwars stuff in future.