Is there anything short of a recost that would make Slaved Turrets usable over DTT?
Flotilla with Turbolaser slot and only front battery of a red?
Yes - make it activatable.
"Before a friendly ships attack step, it may choose to only attack once this round. If it does, while attacking a ship you mad add one red die."
Still not sure why ST is compared to DTT - keep in mind that you have to sacrifice a die when using DTT, so you basically get a very nice version of a reroll.
Tried it on some CR-90's instead of TRC, worked better than expected but probably best on ships that cant take TRC and is only 5pts!
DTT is very good, it offers reliability at the cost of greater potential in some circumstances, if you already have a reroll. Example Vader, Arquittens, Enhanced Armament. Same situation Slaved Turrets also might be an acceptable option a well.
Slaved Turrets goes great with Vader led Arquitens, but not much else.
Is there anything short of a recost that would make Slaved Turrets usable over DTT?
Flotilla with Turbolaser slot and only front battery of a red?
Yes - make it activatable.
"Before a friendly ships attack step, it may choose to only attack once this round. If it does, while attacking a ship you mad add one red die"
Still not sure why ST is compared to DTT - keep in mind that you have to sacrifice a die when using DTT, so you basically get a very nice version of a reroll.
The real weakness of ST is not that the ship loses an attack. Some ships only ever get to fire out of one arc all game and that might be all they need(i.e. salvation). It is that the ship cannot throw flak at attacking squadrons when it decides to shoot ships, or rather, one attack limit means it has to shoot either squads or ships. This makes ships very vulnerable to squadron runs and particularly when the opponent has dual threats like a bomber wing and a gunship coming for you. Your version seems interesting though, but it should definitely cost more than 6 then for the flexibility in battle.
As for why ST is compared to DTT: both have the modification keyword, both are turbolasers, both deal with rolling a red die(DTT drawback is throw one die away), both affect only one attack(ST here limits the attack directly), and both are close in points cost(5-6).
Edited by MuelmuelST can raise your max damage, but DTT gives you more reliable damage and another attack.
Oh is that how that works? i was wondering wth that card was suppose to do.
It does also remove a die, though. Make sure you don't miss that one crucial detail.Unlike Slaved Turrets it adds the die without restricting you to one attack per turn. Unlike Enhanced Armament / Spinal Armament, not only is it cheaper but it is one die applied to any arc. The restriction is it adds die for only one of your shots, but you could use it in combination with Concentrate Fire to either add a die out of both attacks, or double up dice on an attack.
It's really a great card, I think the best of the die-adding turbolaser slots. It's also priced competitively with XI7s to make things interesting. In a universe where redirects are starting to have less relevance (as big ships are slowly going extinct), More dice is becoming more appealing.
DTTs do add to average damage a bit but not as much as an extra dice. They are most useful in circumstances where you've got a blank red dice in the pool just begging to be removed and so they're definitely the kind of upgrade that works best as a "bad dice fixer" moreso than something that further rewards good rolls. TRCs are better on ships with 2 Evades (CR90As, Scout MC30s, Arquitens with Needa). I like Enhanced Armament on Arquitens with Vader (as Vader's ability and the Arquitens' 4 defense tokens allow for easy rerolls of everything, so more dice gives you more to work with). Otherwise, DTTs are super legit and they really shine on ships with small to moderate dice pools that don't want TRCs and aren't lobbing enough pain to benefit from XI7s/H9s/HTTs.
It does also remove a die, though. Make sure you don't miss that one crucial detail.Unlike Slaved Turrets it adds the die without restricting you to one attack per turn. Unlike Enhanced Armament / Spinal Armament, not only is it cheaper but it is one die applied to any arc. The restriction is it adds die for only one of your shots, but you could use it in combination with Concentrate Fire to either add a die out of both attacks, or double up dice on an attack.
It's really a great card, I think the best of the die-adding turbolaser slots. It's also priced competitively with XI7s to make things interesting. In a universe where redirects are starting to have less relevance (as big ships are slowly going extinct), More dice is becoming more appealing.
DTTs do add to average damage a bit but not as much as an extra dice. They are most useful in circumstances where you've got a blank red dice in the pool just begging to be removed and so they're definitely the kind of upgrade that works best as a "bad dice fixer" moreso than something that further rewards good rolls. TRCs are better on ships with 2 Evades (CR90As, Scout MC30s, Arquitens with Needa). I like Enhanced Armament on Arquitens with Vader (as Vader's ability and the Arquitens' 4 defense tokens allow for easy rerolls of everything, so more dice gives you more to work with). Otherwise, DTTs are super legit and they really shine on ships with small to moderate dice pools that don't want TRCs and aren't lobbing enough pain to benefit from XI7s/H9s/HTTs.
Actually DTTs shine on ships with moderate to large dice pools, for the exact reasons you stated above. The larger the number of fickle dice, the higher the probability of getting a blank, which is where DTT does its best. In practice, it is just like rolling a dicepool +1red but having to remove your worst die after that, so the higher your chance of getting a blank anyway, the more DTT pays for itself. See this other discussion here:
Is there anything short of a recost that would make Slaved Turrets usable over DTT?
Flotilla with Turbolaser slot and only front battery of a red?
Yes - make it activatable.
"Before a friendly ships attack step, it may choose to only attack once this round. If it does, while attacking a ship you mad add one red die"
Still not sure why ST is compared to DTT - keep in mind that you have to sacrifice a die when using DTT, so you basically get a very nice version of a reroll.
The real weakness of ST is not that the ship loses an attack. Some ships only ever get to fire out of one arc all game and that might be all they need(i.e. salvation). It is that the ship cannot throw flak at attacking squadrons when it decides to shoot ships, or rather, one attack limit means it has to shoot either squads or ships. This makes ships very vulnerable to squadron runs and particularly when the opponent has dual threats like a bomber wing and a gunship coming for you. Your version seems interesting though, but it should definitely cost more than 6 then for the flexibility in battle.
As for why ST is compared to DTT: both have the modification keyword, both are turbolasers, both deal with rolling a red die(DTT drawback is throw one die away), both affect only one attack(ST here limits the attack directly), and both are close in points cost(5-6).
Ehm, you start your argument stating that the real weakness is not for the ship losing one of her attacks per round - and then continue explaining how chosing what to shoot with that one attack is the real bummer, which essentially, would not happen if the ship would not lose one attack, or would be free to activate and deactivate that card? So put shortly, you would agree with me that a toggleable ST might solve the issue with that card?
And for the comparison, yeah I get the similarities between those cards, but I still doubt that "add a red die to the attack pool" and "add a red die to the attack pool, then remove a die" is somehow a similar effect. DTT is a super-sweet reroll with the added effect that you might turn a blue or black die into a red one, for whatever reasons. It will add to your damage average, but other than changing a blue die to a red one it has no effect whatsoever on your max damage.
And for the comparison, yeah I get the similarities between those cards, but I still doubt that "add a red die to the attack pool" and "add a red die to the attack pool, then remove a die" is somehow a similar effect. DTT is a super-sweet reroll with the added effect that you might turn a blue or black die into a red one, for whatever reasons. It will add to your damage average, but other than changing a blue die to a red one it has no effect whatsoever on your max damage.
Worrying about max damage is like worrying about the amount of the lottery Grand Prize. It doesn't matter, because your chances of getting it are effectively zero.
What you actually need to worry about is expected (i.e. average) damage. And the effect of DTT on this figure is quite significant. For large red dice pools (where the likelihood of rolling at least one blank is very high) it is very close to simply adding an extra die. For smaller pools, its value is closer to (but still higher than) that of a reroll.
And for the comparison, yeah I get the similarities between those cards, but I still doubt that "add a red die to the attack pool" and "add a red die to the attack pool, then remove a die" is somehow a similar effect. DTT is a super-sweet reroll with the added effect that you might turn a blue or black die into a red one, for whatever reasons. It will add to your damage average, but other than changing a blue die to a red one it has no effect whatsoever on your max damage.
Worrying about max damage is like worrying about the amount of the lottery Grand Prize. It doesn't matter, because your chances of getting it are effectively zero.
What you actually need to worry about is expected (i.e. average) damage. And the effect of DTT on this figure is quite significant. For large red dice pools (where the likelihood of rolling at least one blank is very high) it is very close to simply adding an extra die. For smaller pools, its value is closer to (but still higher than) that of a reroll.
I think we might get off track here. I merely added my opinion to the (side) question what might help to get slaved turrets back on the table. I do agree that DTT is superior to ST (as does any non-retarded person) and brings more to the table than a mere reroll would. I still contest that DTT and ST share any similarities besides being modifications for the TL slot, as the effects are quite different in nature.
Chances for max damage on red dice are 1/8 times number of dice, or 3/8 if your salvationing from your front arc. Depending on other sources of rerolls and size of your dice pool, adding a die (for which you dont have to substract another at any point) potentially tops the DTT effect, depending on your dice fishing strategy. Not via ST though, that card sees no game time for a reason.
So to summarize I do like DTT and I dont think ST can take their place. I dont think that DTT and ST share a similar effect. I do think that an added die can trump the DTT reroll, depending on overall circumstances. I dont think that chances for max damage on red dice (1/8^n) and the grand lottery (change for win 1/~195.000.000) share any similar chance value, at least for the number of dice I regularly gather, but I do like the metaphor. ;-)
On my Vader Arquitens, I prefer slaved turrets, because 4 rerolled dice are better than 4 drop-the-worst. I save 4 points compared to enhanced armament, and only lose 1 red dice from the front (or a red and a black if I can get to close range, but that runs counter to the way I use the ship) - which is basically like adding the front guns to the side.
I also prefer slaved turrets on a carrier Vic, and there may be one or two other places where it can fit. Maybe.
Anywhere outside of those niche cases (including on non-Vader Arquitens), DTT is far superior.
I think this DTT vs. ST has not much sense. I mean, without taking the situation where they will work. I didn't try yet but for me is clear that when I "need" DTT I do not ST. Benefits for double-arcing, anti-squadron shoots, other reroll sources, all these came up when you are thinking about what upgrade will work better.
What is better Expanded hangars or Boosted Coms? It will depend on what do you need.
If what do you want is to compare the point cost of these upgrades for me is easy: both works just 1 time per activation, ST give a die, DTT don't. The restriction of ST depend on the situation (sometimes, maybe usually, you only have 1 shoot). I don't use ST because as imperial player, I have just 2 ships to put on it and both let me use gunnery team but with the arquitens I probably use ST or DTT depending on the fleet mechanic I wanted.
So to summarize I do like DTT and I dont think ST can take their place. I dont think that DTT and ST share a similar effect. I do think that an added die can trump the DTT reroll, depending on overall circumstances. I dont think that chances for max damage on red dice (1/8^n) and the grand lottery (change for win 1/~195.000.000) share any similar chance value, at least for the number of dice I regularly gather, but I do like the metaphor. ;-)
Don't underestimate exponentials: you "only" need 9 dice before the chances become very similar indeed, and once you're rolling 10 dice or more, you're actually way better off playing lottery!
More realistically, for an Ackbar'd MC80, the odds of rolling max damage are still worse than one in two million (never tell me the odds!). The odds of rolling at least one non-damage result (blank or acc) are 99%, and the odds of rolling at least one blank are 87%. This means that, 87% of the time, DTT really is just as good as rolling an extra die - for half the point cost!
Of course that doesn't hold true at all for smaller attack pools. But this was Muelmuel's point.
Having said that, I agree with you that the comparison with ST really isn't very good - but only because of the one-attack restriction, which is difficult to quantify. Enhanced Armaments may be a better comparison.
In other words:
The expected outcomes of "Roll 2 dice" and "Roll 2 dice, keep 1" are vastly different.
The expected outcomes of "Roll 8 dice" and "Roll 8 dice, keep 7" are nearly identical.
Edited by DiabloAzul
It does also remove a die, though. Make sure you don't miss that one crucial detail.Unlike Slaved Turrets it adds the die without restricting you to one attack per turn. Unlike Enhanced Armament / Spinal Armament, not only is it cheaper but it is one die applied to any arc. The restriction is it adds die for only one of your shots, but you could use it in combination with Concentrate Fire to either add a die out of both attacks, or double up dice on an attack.
It's really a great card, I think the best of the die-adding turbolaser slots. It's also priced competitively with XI7s to make things interesting. In a universe where redirects are starting to have less relevance (as big ships are slowly going extinct), More dice is becoming more appealing.
DTTs do add to average damage a bit but not as much as an extra dice. They are most useful in circumstances where you've got a blank red dice in the pool just begging to be removed and so they're definitely the kind of upgrade that works best as a "bad dice fixer" moreso than something that further rewards good rolls. TRCs are better on ships with 2 Evades (CR90As, Scout MC30s, Arquitens with Needa). I like Enhanced Armament on Arquitens with Vader (as Vader's ability and the Arquitens' 4 defense tokens allow for easy rerolls of everything, so more dice gives you more to work with). Otherwise, DTTs are super legit and they really shine on ships with small to moderate dice pools that don't want TRCs and aren't lobbing enough pain to benefit from XI7s/H9s/HTTs.
Actually DTTs shine on ships with moderate to large dice pools, for the exact reasons you stated above. The larger the number of fickle dice, the higher the probability of getting a blank, which is where DTT does its best. In practice, it is just like rolling a dicepool +1red but having to remove your worst die after that, so the higher your chance of getting a blank anyway, the more DTT pays for itself. See this other discussion here:
It's not that larger ships don't benefit from DTTs, it's that they're rolling large enough dice pools to benefit more from the turbolaser upgrades that guarantee accuracy results (H9s) or mess with opponent defense token spending (XI7s/HTTs).
Is there anything short of a recost that would make Slaved Turrets usable over DTT?
Flotilla with Turbolaser slot and only front battery of a red?
Yes - make it activatable.
"Before a friendly ships attack step, it may choose to only attack once this round. If it does, while attacking a ship you mad add one red die"
Still not sure why ST is compared to DTT - keep in mind that you have to sacrifice a die when using DTT, so you basically get a very nice version of a reroll.
The real weakness of ST is not that the ship loses an attack. Some ships only ever get to fire out of one arc all game and that might be all they need(i.e. salvation). It is that the ship cannot throw flak at attacking squadrons when it decides to shoot ships, or rather, one attack limit means it has to shoot either squads or ships. This makes ships very vulnerable to squadron runs and particularly when the opponent has dual threats like a bomber wing and a gunship coming for you. Your version seems interesting though, but it should definitely cost more than 6 then for the flexibility in battle.
As for why ST is compared to DTT: both have the modification keyword, both are turbolasers, both deal with rolling a red die(DTT drawback is throw one die away), both affect only one attack(ST here limits the attack directly), and both are close in points cost(5-6).
Ehm, you start your argument stating that the real weakness is not for the ship losing one of her attacks per round - and then continue explaining how chosing what to shoot with that one attack is the real bummer, which essentially, would not happen if the ship would not lose one attack, or would be free to activate and deactivate that card? So put shortly, you would agree with me that a toggleable ST might solve the issue with that card?
And for the comparison, yeah I get the similarities between those cards, but I still doubt that "add a red die to the attack pool" and "add a red die to the attack pool, then remove a die" is somehow a similar effect. DTT is a super-sweet reroll with the added effect that you might turn a blue or black die into a red one, for whatever reasons. It will add to your damage average, but other than changing a blue die to a red one it has no effect whatsoever on your max damage.
Hmmm, going along that line, I guess I am actually agreeing with your solution for ST. I guess I was just more focused on card intention. I'm convinced the designers intended this upgrade to turn a ship into a true conf-fire ship that pours more into a single attack. However with the rise of the squadron threat less commanders would want a gunship that is a one-turn-one-shot cannon that can't defend itself from fighters while firin' its lazer. Now your solution also works, just that I think it should then cost more because of the increased flexibility it gives the ship, perhaps 7-8 points. 
Well regarding the comparison, the rest have kinda said what I was thinking so yup.
It does also remove a die, though. Make sure you don't miss that one crucial detail.Unlike Slaved Turrets it adds the die without restricting you to one attack per turn. Unlike Enhanced Armament / Spinal Armament, not only is it cheaper but it is one die applied to any arc. The restriction is it adds die for only one of your shots, but you could use it in combination with Concentrate Fire to either add a die out of both attacks, or double up dice on an attack.
It's really a great card, I think the best of the die-adding turbolaser slots. It's also priced competitively with XI7s to make things interesting. In a universe where redirects are starting to have less relevance (as big ships are slowly going extinct), More dice is becoming more appealing.
DTTs do add to average damage a bit but not as much as an extra dice. They are most useful in circumstances where you've got a blank red dice in the pool just begging to be removed and so they're definitely the kind of upgrade that works best as a "bad dice fixer" moreso than something that further rewards good rolls. TRCs are better on ships with 2 Evades (CR90As, Scout MC30s, Arquitens with Needa). I like Enhanced Armament on Arquitens with Vader (as Vader's ability and the Arquitens' 4 defense tokens allow for easy rerolls of everything, so more dice gives you more to work with). Otherwise, DTTs are super legit and they really shine on ships with small to moderate dice pools that don't want TRCs and aren't lobbing enough pain to benefit from XI7s/H9s/HTTs.
Actually DTTs shine on ships with moderate to large dice pools, for the exact reasons you stated above. The larger the number of fickle dice, the higher the probability of getting a blank, which is where DTT does its best. In practice, it is just like rolling a dicepool +1red but having to remove your worst die after that, so the higher your chance of getting a blank anyway, the more DTT pays for itself. See this other discussion here:
It's not that larger ships don't benefit from DTTs, it's that they're rolling large enough dice pools to benefit more from the turbolaser upgrades that guarantee accuracy results (H9s) or mess with opponent defense token spending (XI7s/HTTs).
oooh I hadn't considered that. Stiff competition here.
Or leading shots. Good lord i love leading shots on a high die pool ship. Toss a blank out the window and reroll the other blanks ftw.
Almost all of the weapon upgrades are amazing for small die pools but lousy for large and vice versa.
Edited by Vineheart01Or leading shots. Good lord i love leading shots on a high die pool ship. Toss a blank out the window and reroll the other blanks ftw.
Almost all of the weapon upgrades are amazing for small die pools but lousy for large and vice versa.
You have to spend a blue die to reroll with Leading Shots, so you're never tossing a blank.
Is there something saying spending a die that doesnt specify a result cant be a blank? cause i couldnt find jack on that.
No, you're absolutely allowed to spend blanks. But blue dice don't have any. 
Yeah, sorry dude... Not even me, Mr Statistically Abysmal, can roll a Blank Side on a Blue Die 
I mean, I've had every opportunity to screw up that badly, but havn't yet
i.. well..derp lol wow i really am spaced out today.