Happy new year everyone!

With my Regionals coming up in Feb, I'll be writing like heck again as I'm gearing up for it. I'm also in that World Cup thing and there's two lists that I want to try seriously this year, so it's going to be a doozy. I'm probably going to put one of the lists through the Vassal tournament and play another one 2 times a week at my house for competitive play. I'll be doing battle reports for all of these games as well.

With that said, Wave 5 ships:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2017/01/armada-wave-5-ships-and-upgrades.html

and the big one, Wave 5 squadrons:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2017/01/armada-wave-5-squadrons.html

Today, I'll probably drop some Wave 5 list ideas using some of the new stuff, and tomorrow I'll reveal what lists I plan on going with this tournament season.

Minor note: Cloak triggers at the end of the squad phase, so is even worse.

I'm an Armada noob, but I appreciate anyone who writes up reviews. Thanks!

Off-topic, but I see you play TANKS as well. I just discovered that game myself and have the starter skirmish pack now. Looks like fun! A good non-digital alternative to World of Tanks: Blitz. I tried looking up comments on your blog, but they won't load. Technical difficulties with Disqus?

Minor note: Cloak triggers at the end of the squad phase, so is even worse.

Cloak is just really bad.

I just want to throw this out here: I might be turning Imperials for this Regionals, one because they're underappreciated it seems currently, and two, I want to dispel a couple of rumors that they're actually pretty awful.

As for Disqus, yeah it does that sometime. The comments just don't load for some reason.

Armada: Wave 5 Commander Sato

Armada: The Empire Strikes Back

Well written thoughts.

I'm still not sure whether I like XI7s more than H9s on the ISD2, especially with Kallus. Your power vs Assault Frigates, MC80 H1s, and other ISD 2s drops, but you gain massively against Flotillas, Nebs, and MC80 Libs goes way up, and these were definitely all highly picked ships in the last few months. (Lib mainly because it was new.). Against uniques, you all but guarantee damage (98.5%).

What are your thoughts? Will the new defensive upgrades bring MC80s H1 back hard?

On the fighters, I'd be tempted to put Ciena in instead of two basic TIEs, you lose minimal firepower, gain survivability, and keep the number of deployments.

"Activation advantage is only temporary if you're able to reliably kill multiple ships a turn."

YES!!!

Well written thoughts.

I'm still not sure whether I like XI7s more than H9s on the ISD2, especially with Kallus. Your power vs Assault Frigates, MC80 H1s, and other ISD 2s drops, but you gain massively against Flotillas, Nebs, and MC80 Libs goes way up, and these were definitely all highly picked ships in the last few months. (Lib mainly because it was new.). Against uniques, you all but guarantee damage (98.5%).

What are your thoughts? Will the new defensive upgrades bring MC80s H1 back hard?

On the fighters, I'd be tempted to put Ciena in instead of two basic TIEs, you lose minimal firepower, gain survivability, and keep the number of deployments.

You want the XI7s to kill MC30s which are otherwise a weakness to this list. I forsee MC80s getting new life, and Gallant Haven also needs some XI justice.

Since you have reliable blues (4 vs. most, MC80C having the second most for the # of dice you're throwing out), H9s are rather superfluous in this case. While the interaction with Kallus is good, Avenger does with the accuracy does in most cases with this build.

I do think the MC80s will see new life, but again, the 2 blues and heavy dependency on good red rolls even with Leading Shots is a bit questionable. I'm sure you can get the same performance with the MC80C and still have better odds vs. floaters despite having less hull overall. At least you will save a bunch of points.

I really love the idea of Avenger/Kallus. Lists with uniques (and let's face it there are a lot of them!) will really have to struggle with the question of whether or not to attack that ISD.

This is why i come to this forum - articles and ideas that make me reconsider my assumptions about lists. Cheers Hero, good stuff!

Ref. Gallant Haven and the BiggsBall - whilst lethal, do you not think it'll add a degree of predictability to not only in game moving (predicting where a good chunk of your fleet will go) but also in deployment? Once you place Gallant Haven or elements of the BiggsBall, they'll have a fair idea of where most of your fleet is going?

Armada: The Empire Strikes Back

This is one of the Regionals lists that I've been pondering about over the last few weeks. No joke, I'm very close to having a change of heart and possibly switching over to Imperials for the next couple of months. The reason is actually quite simple for me: There is a lot of people running squadrons in my area, a lot of people are running Rebels, and Imperials seem under-presented and thought of as weaker in most cases.

My only major recommendation would be this; I think Vader as a squadron is seriously overcosted, and you are going to run into fleets with serious cover that are simply not going to allow you to extract value for your investment. I would swap him with Zetrik Strom to get the same escort value, and use the difference to upgrade one of the base tie fighters to valen rudor. Your ball gains survivability, and valen offsets the antisquad lost from swapping vader out. Obviously vader is better antiship but you probably wouldnt be taking that shot anyway.

This is why i come to this forum - articles and ideas that make me reconsider my assumptions about lists. Cheers Hero, good stuff!

Ref. Gallant Haven and the BiggsBall - whilst lethal, do you not think it'll add a degree of predictability to not only in game moving (predicting where a good chunk of your fleet will go) but also in deployment? Once you place Gallant Haven or elements of the BiggsBall, they'll have a fair idea of where most of your fleet is going?

It will, but in most cases it doesn't care about its predictability. You either deal with it, or you can't.

Armada: The Empire Strikes Back

This is one of the Regionals lists that I've been pondering about over the last few weeks. No joke, I'm very close to having a change of heart and possibly switching over to Imperials for the next couple of months. The reason is actually quite simple for me: There is a lot of people running squadrons in my area, a lot of people are running Rebels, and Imperials seem under-presented and thought of as weaker in most cases.

At first I looked at this a little dismissively, but after a moment I realized I was looking at it through a lens that still wasn't really accounting for wave 5's full effects. As I shifted I felt better about. You called out my major concerns in your article, so clearly you are aware of what weakness the list has in terms of deployment/activations. I would agree with you that they are completely surmountable. Also props for the christmas tree ISD, when flown well they are vicious and people who dismiss them can be taken by surprise.

My only major recommendation would be this; I think Vader as a squadron is seriously overcosted, and you are going to run into fleets with serious cover that are simply not going to allow you to extract value for your investment. I would swap him with Zetrik Strom to get the same escort value, and use the difference to upgrade one of the base tie fighters to valen rudor. Your ball gains survivability, and valen offsets the antisquad lost from swapping vader out. Obviously vader is better antiship but you probably wouldnt be taking that shot anyway.

You know how I am with Christmas Trees! Although in this case, the upgrades really make the ISD-II an absolute monster.

Vader, has the highest anti-squadron in the game currently. He just does so much damage. I will consider what you said about Zetrik Strom though. I don't like how he pings my squadrons for damage, but I never really looked at him as a flat 5 HP 2 Brace body, thanks.

My other variant of this list current is:

Drop the majority of the squadrons, + Raider-I with OE/APT and just keep Howl + 3x TIEs for a 4 activation list with 6 total drops during deployment.

Vader is an AS monster, but I've never seen him live past round three. Part of it is escort, the other part is even if he didnt, he would be the highest priority squadron target on the board. In this high squad meta, I think you are better off using Strom as ablative squadron armor and letting the offense come from other sources. As you said, his value is less in his ability (which you know, meh. Good with bossk) but he's the most cost efficient pure escort body in the game.

Not a huge fan of the raider iteration, unless you feel extremely confident in your ability to work around the ships limitations. The extra activation is nice, but your screen will get shredded by anything with even remotely decent antisquad. I mean, you could lose the whole thing by the end of the first round of engagement shredded. I imagine the plan here would be to stick close to Avenger with both screeen and Raider to create overlapping flak fields? Which could work, its a serious flak issue and it creates a real killzone for enemy bombers, but it feels like one of those things that looks great on paper and has issues transitioning to the table. I think the first wing you discussed is a more thorny issue for enemy fighters and provides you more flexibilty. Just my two cents though. Raider does also give you more antiship.

Vader is an AS monster, but I've never seen him live past round three. Part of it is escort, the other part is even if he didnt, he would be the highest priority squadron target on the board. In this high squad meta, I think you are better off using Strom as ablative squadron armor and letting the offense come from other sources. As you said, his value is less in his ability (which you know, meh. Good with bossk) but he's the most cost efficient pure escort body in the game.

Not a huge fan of the raider iteration, unless you feel extremely confident in your ability to work around the ships limitations. The extra activation is nice, but your screen will get shredded by anything with even remotely decent antisquad. I mean, you could lose the whole thing by the end of the first round of engagement shredded. I imagine the plan here would be to stick close to Avenger with both screeen and Raider to create overlapping flak fields? Which could work, its a serious flak issue and it creates a real killzone for enemy bombers, but it feels like one of those things that looks great on paper and has issues transitioning to the table. I think the first wing you discussed is a more thorny issue for enemy fighters and provides you more flexibilty. Just my two cents though. Raider does also give you more antiship.

I'll think about it for sure. Vader, at least to me represents a huge threat that must be dealt with until he's dead. Like you said, he doesn't live past round 3, but that's good for me none the less. He'll either keep swinging, or draw away unwanted attention from the rest of my squads. What makes Vader exciting to me is that on 5-squad activation, Vader is leading the pack there. His alpha is strong, very strong, and if that's enough to do enough damage for the Kallus/Avenger damage to melt down someone like Jan or Biggs, I'll take it for sure. You're right, Strom is looking to be the most cost-effective Escort in the game at 15 points. I wish I can take them both, so what I'll end up doing is trying out both variations and getting back to you for what I want more.

Think about it this way though: Comms Net for squadron from Suppressor first turn gives the Avenger a 5-squad activation when he wants it. Who will you send in the first wave? Vader makes a much bigger impact than Strom in this effect.

Vader can do a ton of damage. But escort just completely ruins him: you cant protect him, so who dies first every time? vader.

Really, really wish they'd dump Escort off him.

Unless the unthinkable happens and strom rolls three doubles ;p

Looking further, on average, its fair to expect say 3-4 damge out of vader. But in an alpha, whats taking that damage? Often its something that braces it to 2. Often because it had escort and you had to shoot it. Zetrik probably does one or two, so you wind up with the difference of a single damge in what I've found to be a relatively consistent scenario.

Now obviously, if you run into generics sans Jan, or something without escort, then Vader brings a lot more offensive value. Higher variance wins tournaments, so thats definetely a point in favor of brining Vader. So it really comes down to what you think you'll see. If you are gonna see moustache rides and jan balls left and right, I think you are better off with Strom/rudor. If not, it might be better to take the extra punch from vader.

My only other point I would add is dont discount that with Strom you can also take Rudor. Thats an upgrade to your offense that dies last (probably) instead of first. Plus scatter is nice.

It's called a Mustache Ride, not a Biggsball.

Fixed

It's called a Mustache Ride, not a Biggsball.

Oh come on! BIGGsBALLs. GET It?!

Out the gate, I really like the build in general. It's obvious you've put a lot of thought into this from a dealing-with-the-meta perspective, and I think you're right about most of your points. I also really love this kind of fleet (pimped-out ISD + escorts), so I'd love to see somebody do well with it.

I do have some feedback for you to consider from the perspective of the MC30 player on the other side of the table. Keep in mind that I don't have all the answers to how to address these issues, because if I did I'd be running that list instead of mine.

Activation advantage is only temporary if you're able to reliably kill multiple ships a turn.

While this is true, it's kind of one of those things that looks good on paper but doesn't work out how you expected it to on the field. I fly 4 MC30's and 3 GR-75's, and I generally only care about activation advantage until the initial clash anyway. Activation advantage is what keeps me out of that terrifying front arc until I'm ready to be there; after I'm already into or behind the double arc, I'm activating shrimp as fast as I can to get off all the double-arcs or forks I've set up when I jumped into your fleet.

The biggest play from Demolisher is being able to deliver the good ol' triple-tap, forcing a Brace and then Avenger will finish the rest.

I agree with you; the catch is, you'll have to work to make that triple-tap happen if you don't have the activations. You do have one of the best same-turn threat ranges in the game, between the ISD2 and Demo, so you can use that range to deny a large area of space, forcing something to activate into the danger zone. That would give you the effective end-of-turn shot, which you can then follow up with the opener from Demo. From what I'm seeing--and this is a strongly local-meta-dependent thing, so YMMV--385 will net you first in virtually all serious engagements right now, especially as people gain access to objectives they're comfortable with and shave bids down in response.

Speaking of new objectives: have you had the opportunity to play with CC objectives yet? I strongly think that Solar Corona was designed for this fleet specifically, because it mitigates your deployment weakness while imposing a drawback that almost doesn't apply to you, but will hurt almost anything else very much. It's at least better than DT, which is a wash at best in virtually every case I've ever seen. I suggest you give it a try at least, even though you're bidding for first.

Finally, as far as the MC30 being your weakness: whenever I see LS, XI7, and GT on an ISD2, I know it's going to be a rough game. In your list, you can also throw squadrons as openers to force tokens, wear down my shields, and Suppressor will tap an evade. If you ever catch a pair of MC30's in that front arc at Close-Medium, you're almost guaranteed to pop them both. The pacing of the engagement is crucial to getting this: if you can keep your speed unpredictable, that front arc is very hard to avoid, so keep a nav token banked right off the bat.

I pretty much object to everything you said in your wave V blog.

I like everything you said in your fleet build blog. (apart from those objectives, but you didnt discuss those so it looks like first player or bust)

I wasnt going to post the first comment originally, however, since I can be well rounded with the comment now I shall.

I pretty much to everything you said in your wave V blog.

I like everything you said in your fleet build blog. (apart from those objectives, but you didnt discuss those so it looks like first player or bust)

I wasnt going to post the first comment originally, however, since I can be well rounded with the comment now I shall.

The objectives are currently WIP, but what do you not like about them out of curiosity? Also, did I miss your comment on my blog? I know Disquis has been acting up.

My thought process for the objectives is pretty simple: Most wanted on their biggest ship and the smallest on mine. I'm thinking more and more about Contested Outpost now, just in case I run into a high-activation higher bid list, I can sit in the corner and milk points. Solar Corona does seem pretty cool, as it will allow me to place defensive on top of being able to see where my opponent is going ahead of time. The idea of Minefields was to force kill zones where I can focus ships into the ISD's front arc and to limit the chances of being flanked. What are your thoughts on this?

@Ardaedhel, let me digest what you said more thoroughly when I have some time. I like where you're going with it though, and as you've mentioned, I'm definitely making some meta calls here but that's intended and deliberate. I do wonder if my build here is going to catch on. Like I argued previously, the ISD-II is in prime position to kick some serious face in.

Admonition scares the crap out of me though, especially those driven expertly and with sky-high activations. As for the bid itself, I also averaged out and thoroughly examined the bids from all the Regionals data we currently have from schmitty. According to my research, I'm either poised to beat the things I want to beat or don't care as much about the things that want to outrace me. I'm playing a game today with this list, so I'll let you know how it goes!

As for the triple-tap comment, I'd like to reaffirm that you don't really need the triple-tap for the Demo to do work. Even a single-tap before Avenger activates will force the Brace in most cases. No one wants to eat that much damage if they don't have to, so it's definitely there to force a lot of critical decisions on the opponent.

Edit: LOL, I just noticed my objectives said Dangerous Territory. That's probably why you were confused. Updated!

I like the fleet idea. I've been trying to see if I can get a tricked out ISD with deno and still have 4 activistikns witha decent fighter threat...hard to do if you want a bid.

I would also recommend solar corona. Problem with mine fields is strategic. Against someone running a strategic squadron they can easily clear a path in your minefield and even turn it against you placing one in front of your ships.