He actually explained all his reasonings.

That only goes to show that what people consider an NPE is highly subjective and based on what they perceive as valid choices.

True.

You're actually sleeving Exploding Kittens????!!??

You're actually sleeving Exploding Kittens????!!??

I'm not. pulled those pics from the interwebs. I do encourage people to wash their hands before playing with my set though.

"Outfly it/ play well" is not a good excuse for **** design.

Otherwise, just drop down a 100 Attack ship. It's not a problem because just arc-dodge it, yo.

"Outfly it/ play well" is not a good excuse for **** design.

Otherwise, just drop down a 100 Attack ship. It's not a problem because just arc-dodge it, yo.

that's **** design, but it's not NPE

unless it's a PWT, then it's **** design that you can't do **** about (aka NPE)

Rhymer, not Jonus. But yes.

I always get those two mixed up. Like Tomax and Xamot. .

Tomax has the scar...

"Outfly it/ play well" is not a good excuse for **** design.

No, but we're not talking about crappy design here are we?

Biggs isn't crappy design, he works brilliantly and you've a couple of choices when dealing with him. And with that crappy timing chart you have even more options. Either maneuver in such a way that you separate the herd, position yourself that you can attack one target, but not Biggs or just plain blow Biggs out of the sky.

Biggs is a speedbump and points spent on keeping him alive are points not spent on killing you.

Neither is Zuckuss crappy design. Zuckuss is but one component of a combo. Without Manaroo feeding Dengar the modifiers Zuckuss wouldn't be nearly as dangerous thanks to the selfstressing.

Blinded Pilot is not crappy, it's a small chance of giving someone a weapons disabled token for one combat activation. On the off chance of it actually turning up, it lasts for at most one round, and that's a round where the owner can factor it in and maneuver accordingly.

So where is the crappy design.

Ehhhhhhh this is all super sketchy.

That definition of NPE is so freaking broad as to almost be meaningless. It would technically be accurate to say that destroying the ships in your list is an NPE because it takes way the player choice you had over that ship, due to results beyond your control(dice), which is obviously ludicrous. Zuckuss is annoying, and may well be an NPE, but considering it's just as possible to roll 3 evades, then reroll and get 3 evades anyways, that's not ZUCKUSS, that's DICE. Technically speaking not even the player using Zuckuss has control over that. As for almost everything else(Biggs, stress, ion, etc), that is, in fact, just as much under your control as it is the other players. Taking a risk or not thinking the engagement through and landing in arc of a stressmule is YOUR FAULT. Getting outplayed and the stressmule landing arc on you is YOUR FAULT. Getting hit by an ion weapon is just as much your fault as it is the attacking player. Not keeping Biggs out of your arc, or taking weapons that can target someone other than Biggs is just as much your fault as it is their achievement.

this is why you need a technical definition of Negative Player Experience

which is simply the subtraction of the player from the experience

i.e, your input as a player has little consequence due to X

which none of the list qualify for at all, really, because they can either be avoided (Biggs/stress) or involve dice (zuckuss) which are completely beyond the player's control

Blinded Pilot is a right ***** of an NPE, though. Really shouldn't kick in if you havn't shot the round you got it so you can adapt by blocking or getting out of dodge instead of jockeying for a shot

Everyone has a different definition of NPE.

No, but we're not talking about crappy design here are we?

<snip>

So where is the crappy design.

I was not making comment about any specific card.

I am stating that people should not be using "out fly it" as an excuse for a pilot/upgrade/etc. being unbalanced.

"Just don't get shot by it" has to be the laziest, weakest excuse in the world and if everyone could just fly perfect games and never be in arc of anything than of course nothing would appear to be designed badly.

Because, ya know, we'd never get shot by it.

You guys can argue about the effectiveness of cards all you want, just use actual discussion and reasoning instead of dodging the question.

"Just don't get shot by it" has to be the laziest, weakest excuse in the world and if everyone could just fly perfect games and never be in arc of anything than of course nothing would appear to be designed badly.

Oh right, no I fully agree with you there.

It's in the same league as say "it always dies in the first round of shooting" because people somehow always only roll full hits and the target never evades.

No, but we're not talking about crappy design here are we?

<snip>

So where is the crappy design.

I was not making comment about any specific card.

I am stating that people should not be using "out fly it" as an excuse for a pilot/upgrade/etc. being unbalanced.

"Just don't get shot by it" has to be the laziest, weakest excuse in the world

You're right. "Outfly it" is just a fancy way of saying "git gud," which is a lazy response in a balance discussion. If the other side has taken the time to look at the situation objectively and put forth a reasoned argument, such a response contributes nothing to the conversation (Note: Palpatine is OP PLZ NERF is obviously not a reasoned argument)

However, the OP is discussing how control effects impact player enjoyment, which is a very different thing. If being skilled at the core mechanic of the game allows you to mitigate the effect of a control element, that does in fact imply counterplay, which the OP feels is not present in the mechanics he's discussing.

There are those who would add Autoblaster turrets and cannons to the list...and Carnor Jax, Palob, and Old Teroch too.

And blocking.

And boosting out of arc.

And etc.

And positioning perfectly yet still rolling blanks to hit...

I'll take that one right there with a differing example from a game I played this week against my 9 year old.

The remaining table state is irrelevant to the story, all that matter is... both his academy ties, on on 2 hits the other with 1. I have Fenn Rau, range 1, out of arc on one of the Tie's and Dengar (raged) with both in arc (1 at range 1 the other at range 2). Fenn steps up (he'd had to boost and roll to get out of arc, sadly, so no focus) 5 dice range 1, 2 crits, 1 hit.... Tie rolls 3 natural evades. Which makes him Dengars target, Dengar rolls (with rage an focus) 4 hits (range 1), Tie rolls 3 natural evades and drops down to a single hull point....

They were even my dice... do I ever roll 3 natural evades on 3 dice.... good god no.......

As for New Player Experience.... What does a new player want from the game he might have just dropped anywhere from £30 to £100 on (or your local currency of choice)? He wants to maybe play against his friend (who got him into the game) or maybe play at the local store (where he plays other games or maybe never plays at all) and have a positive experience. Does he need to win ? No, but it can help and it depends on the age and mentality of the player concerned. If I pick up a new game and get beaten the first time out, I'll ask myself and my opponent what could I have done, what parts of the game didn't i understand. Younger players are often disheartened when they lose but if it's a close game and it comes down to a final do or die dice roll, they'll normally enjoy the game.

You don't have to let a rookie win, it's not fun if someone lets you win. But whats definitely a negative player experience is when the new guy rocks up with his 100 points for a "pick-up game" and his opponent throws down the Palp Defenders list which he won regionals with last week.... shortly before he tables him.

I agree, but only in the most general sense. Playing games is about agency. The more agency a games gives you the more engaging it is.

But I have never really felt like my agency was overly happened in X-wing. I have struggled against some lists where I didn't see how I could beat them successfully, but this has happened as much because they were just arc-dogging me or I couldn't get through there defense as it was because I was denied actions. I didn't find being denied actions more frustrating than other ways of being soundly beaten.

Playing games is about agency. The more agency a games gives you the more engaging it is.

I'm not disagreeing entirely, but you have to be careful how you define "agency". Just having a ton of choices won't engage someone if those choices are meaningless, and making those choices meaningful frequently constrains choice by dictating outcomes.

I agree with Hrathen. I find those abilities more challenging than NPE, though permenant Juke gets close. MTG was king of denial. The 'Denial' deck's main purose was to stop the opponent casting spells. X-wing is no where near this level of 'nope' nor npe.

Its a huge NPE if your main attack ship is getting blown away in round 1, because you have only 1 evade die and no evade Action.

Luckily there is Biggs to prevent that from happening.

Maybe the creator of this thread is an imperial player, as he complains about Rebel & Scum tactics, while The Emperor is just fine in his oppinion.

Obviously he doesn't know the feeling when you shoot at a 5 green dice ship with 2 tokens on it, somehow get a crit through that, until Palpatine turns one die.

That's a NOPE situation.

If balance were the question of this thread, "git gud" would not be a reasonable argument, as the inherent nature of something being unbalanced implies that getting good ISN'T ENOUGH to overcome whatever it is we're talking about, but this is not the case with these upgrades. Getting good and avoiding the pitfalls and negative side effects that these upgrades pose is completely possible and viable(which is the whole point in the first place, being a tactical maneuver-based strategy game) to anyone willing to put in the leg work to learn how.

Not being able to play the game well is not an NPE. Jumpmasters were an NPE, because there was almost nothing a very large amount of players were able to do to win the matchup. The only list with a positive matchup on JM5Ks were Palp Aces, which many ALSO considered an NPE because of similar reasons. In this case, it was so severe as to the point where in order to beat JM5Ks, the ONLY thing you could do is pick up one list that was capable of winning. Essentially, the solution wasn't "git gud", it was either give up, or select the one winning list.

This is not the case with these upgrades. There are multiple, MULTIPLE different lists, strategies, and so forth that allow victory in the face of all of these things, each faction even having it's own solution to it, too. It comes down to a rather basic list adaptivity(not comparable to Palp Aces v. JM5K simply because there are many more solutions than just one list archetype) and strategy.

Maybe the creator of this thread is an imperial player, as he complains about Rebel & Scum tactics, while The Emperor is just fine in his oppinion.

Obviously he doesn't know the feeling when you shoot at a 5 green dice ship with 2 tokens on it, somehow get a crit through that, until Palpatine turns one die.

Nope and nope.

I play all three factions but am primarily a Rebel player, and I know very well the experience of never being able to punch through a turtled up Soontir because of Palp. Then again, I've also been able to beat a Soontir Palp Aces list using a Z-95 swarm ... it's X-wing; anything is possible.

Everyone has a different personal definition of what makes a negative play experience for them. For me personally, most of the things I've listed aren't outright NPEs for me -- many of them are frustrating, and borderline, but because they largely aren't outright "NOPE" mechanics. X-wing is good in being largely devoid of outright mechanics like that, but I do feel that many mechanics are close, could be seen as NPE by others, and the number of mechanics that could potentially deny meaningful player choice is increasing.

My point is that player choices should matter and not be arbitrarily negated (and dice are dice, this is a game with RNG mechanics; that's just what it is so there's no point in whining about dice luck). If my opponent makes smarter choices than me (bumps, blocks, arc-dodges, makes a smart call with a single use mechanic, etc) I'm fine with that; just don't negate my choice outright without providing mechanisms to avoid that loss of choice. Luckily, as I pointed out, most of the X-wing mechanics close to NOPE still maintain some means that they can be avoided by smart player choice.

Good discussion.

While I don't necessarily agree with the premise of your thread, I completely agree with your evaluation of Corran Horn.

Nothing related to green dice can be npe as that implies green dice are a,part of your input as a player

And not just complete random bull

in fact, if you actually think about it, green dice are the greatest npe

"I outplayed and outmanuevered you to shoot your important ship"

"nah 3 naked evades **** you"

Lol, Either this, or a Hwk 290 hits you with its primary through a rock at range 3.

OP says stuff

Walnuts, coconuts, oysters, crabs, honey... we eat them all. Human minds are predatory minds, we derive enjoyment from figuring out a way around problems. In that same way, we enjoy the counterplay options provided to us by many of the aspects you mentioned. Divining and successfully implementing counter-strategies to your opponent's list feels very rewarding. Having two Outmaneuver RGPs at range 3 of an ICT Y-Wing feels good to pull off. Boosting so that the enemy ship with 2 hull left is at range 1 and in arc (but Biggs is juuuuust out of arc) feels good. Or simply flying in excellent formation around the space rocks and catching Tarn or the Zuckuss carrier in multiple arcs and annihilating them in a turn or two feels good. It's all just humans learning how to crack open the next tough shell...

and dice are dice, this is a game with RNG mechanics; that's just what it is so there's no point in whining about dice luck

The RNG is also a source of NPE for some people. They view the game as a dice game and feel that their luck on the dice should have a meaningful impact on the game outcome. As such they often consider stuff that screws with the dice tolls too much (Zuckuss, Palp Aces, old JM5k proton torpedos) or avoids it altogether (Sabine Conner Nets, Feedback Array, Oicunn, etc.) as NPE.

If you're gonna beat an ace you're gonna have to nope out their green dice.