So I saw in the main forums a discussion that brought this combo up and I think it needs a discussion Before the CC Campaigns begin. So on Rieekan's card it says a ship is not destroyed until the End of the Status Phase while you Hyperspace out your non-destroyed ships at the Beginning of the Status Phase.

Straight reading means that the ship will not be destroyed because it leaves before the End of the Status Phase but does it still become Destroyed and Scarred? RAW says no it's not but is that the way the rule works?

Discuss or FFG please step in and clarify.

Straight Reading, it won't count as Destroyed... Because the CC rule would apply.

A lot of give and take is required in the Campaign, being a friendly system

But that being said - how useful it is at actually "saving" something is all a matter of timing... I see you're going to Hyperspace out? Awesome, I won't kill you....

I put damage on and kill it, and you decide to hyperspace out? Not a big deal, still score points for it in the battle...

Just wait until the opportunity passes, and then once its passed, then kill it... No Hyperspace, and instead, death for you........

Its up to you wether you want to Hyperspace in advance.

All extremely valuable points and I don't disagree, and Rieekan is not my choice for Admiral anyways but it does still seem like a valid question.

Certain;y a valid question. But I expect any responses for CC to be even slower forthcoming than Wave 5

Well then if we ask now we can hear back before the next Campaign comes out.

It's also worth noting that you can't hyperspace out until turns 4 or 5 at the earliest.

Rieekan ships can still be destroyed good and proper on turn 3

I feel like it creates an imbalance in the overall campaign. Rieekan basically becomes a thirty point upgrade that will save you a lot in repair costs over time. You're going to lose ships (unless you're really good, your opponent is really bad, or dice really hate you). But Rieekan goes from letting you take one last shot/squadron activation, to turning your ships into zombies that never really die. It takes a core rule that everyone has to follow, and allows one player to ignore it. It creates an imbalance.

Yes and no.

They'll be swimming in Resources, for sure... But what can they really do with those resources?

You can't give them to your fellows.

You can only build Bases where you win, and Rieekan isn't necessarily helping you win in this context...

You can't seemingly mothball ships or squadrons - only upgrades - in order to switch out for better stuff...

So yes, it creates an Imbalance... But I wonder just how useful that imbalance is...

I feel like it creates an imbalance in the overall campaign. Rieekan basically becomes a thirty point upgrade that will save you a lot in repair costs over time. You're going to lose ships (unless you're really good, your opponent is really bad, or dice really hate you). But Rieekan goes from letting you take one last shot/squadron activation, to turning your ships into zombies that never really die. It takes a core rule that everyone has to follow, and allows one player to ignore it. It creates an imbalance.

Kind of like how Tagge ignores the penalty for a scarred ship(on turn three, but still). Like Dras said you only grow your resources by winning Rieekan RAW can help mitigate a loss but it is still a loss.

Rieekan in the CC helps you lose less, a perfect thematic fit for the guy whose movie role was just to evacuate Echo Base.

He has counters/weaknesses in CC as well

1. There is competition over the unique squadrons that he loves, because any he takes (and puts at risk with brinksman tactics) are denied to his teammates.

2. Interdictor full stops this strategy.

3. Rieekan is forced to activate his forces just so, with extreme care to his order of activations. Any ship that activates must choose to either retreat or stick around, and if it gets destroyed after activating then it won't have a chance to escape and will get scarred as normal. That's not that hard to exploit as an opponent, and it forces Rieekan to give up some flexibility of how he activates.

He definitely becomes pretty cool in the campaign, though if FFG erratas this not to work then he's garbage tier in the CC because he'll never stop hemorrhaging repair points. Compare him to Motti who also gets to keep his ships just barely from dying and then fully restore them to max health for the next battle without spending on repairs. No way around it: defensive commanders can snowball in the early game if not countered, and offensive commanders can shine if shielded from early obliteration.

And with such a discourse and explanation - I'm even more likely to state:

No FAQ needed.

Works as Intended.

Move along.

I think so.

Riekan says: [if a ships is destroyed, it isnt considered as destroyed until the end of the status phase]

Flee rules says: [if a ship that declared a retreat isnt destroyed at the begining of the status phase, he is removed from the game, counts as destroyed for the score but not for the campaign (especially for the scared rule)]

So, even if it isnt "fluff" (the ship is breaking aparts while in hyperspace, theres no way he could even get out safely and would probably explode due to the sudden accelleration...), the ship isnt destroyed when we check for its condition (start of status phase). So he retreats and isnt scared.

Anyway, i dont think its a huge advantage, as Rieekan's fleet would probably loose the battle with "destroyed for the score" ship. Its only an economy of repair points, but whats the point to have ressources if you loose your battles? If we're talking about a MC30 for eg, its 32 repair points that he saves, but 63 fleet points that he looses, that is a high price that would probably make his opponent the winner. And its useable only at turns 4 & 5, if the opponent hasnt any Interdictor at distance 5 at the end of round... we've seen more unbalanced situations.

The further complication is that, if a Fleet Hyperspaces out, leaving its fighters behind - normally, in a standard game, you'd score 400 Points... Not the Value of the Fleet, not counting everything as Destroyed... 400 points...

Do you keep that as 400 Points... Do you gain the Full Value of the Fleet (Say, it was a 454 point Fleet, so 454)... Or do you gain the maximum you could, by taking the '400 points fleet build limit' "rule" to its full conclusion and gain 500 points, regardless of the fleet size, after the First Battle...

All of these points need to be discussed and agreed upon

I don't think it matters... A tabling is an auto-win, right, regardless of points?

I don't think it matters... A tabling is an auto-win, right, regardless of points?

Indeed, and I guess in a Campaingm you don't need to know Margins of Victory at all , do we?

Man, breaking this Tournament-Central Mindset isn't the easiest thing to do.

So you're right. Totally a Non-Issue there

Man, breaking this Tournament-Central Mindset isn't the easiest thing to do.

You me both, my man.

The card says " When a friendly ship or friendly unique squadron is DESTROYED, it remains in the play area and is TREATED as if it was not destroyed until the end of the Status phase."

Thus the minute a ship deals equal or more hull points dmg then the ship has hull, it is DESTROYED, you just delay the suffering of the ship till the end of the Status phase. No no Rieekan can not save a ship in use with hyperspace jump.

I feel like it creates an imbalance in the overall campaign. Rieekan basically becomes a thirty point upgrade that will save you a lot in repair costs over time. You're going to lose ships (unless you're really good, your opponent is really bad, or dice really hate you). But Rieekan goes from letting you take one last shot/squadron activation, to turning your ships into zombies that never really die. It takes a core rule that everyone has to follow, and allows one player to ignore it. It creates an imbalance.

Kind of like how Tagge ignores the penalty for a scarred ship(on turn three, but still). Like Dras said you only grow your resources by winning Rieekan RAW can help mitigate a loss but it is still a loss.

No tagge does not let you regain the token you lost to be scarred. So you can only regain the tokens you started that match with. and you start with one less for being scared, and have one less hull

I feel like it creates an imbalance in the overall campaign. Rieekan basically becomes a thirty point upgrade that will save you a lot in repair costs over time. You're going to lose ships (unless you're really good, your opponent is really bad, or dice really hate you). But Rieekan goes from letting you take one last shot/squadron activation, to turning your ships into zombies that never really die. It takes a core rule that everyone has to follow, and allows one player to ignore it. It creates an imbalance.

Kind of like how Tagge ignores the penalty for a scarred ship(on turn three, but still). Like Dras said you only grow your resources by winning Rieekan RAW can help mitigate a loss but it is still a loss.

No tagge does not let you regain the token you lost to be scarred. So you can only regain the tokens you started that match with. and you start with one less for being scared, and have one less hull

Tagge does \

Because you Start the match with them...

"When a Scarred ship is deployed, it must choose and discard one defense token."

Not before the game , not before setup. When its deployed. Its placed on the table, and then, it loses a token. It had the token beforehand.

The first turn hasn't started, but the game certainly has.

The card says " When a friendly ship or friendly unique squadron is DESTROYED, it remains in the play area and is TREATED as if it was not destroyed until the end of the Status phase."

Thus the minute a ship deals equal or more hull points dmg then the ship has hull, it is DESTROYED, you just delay the suffering of the ship till the end of the Status phase. No no Rieekan can not save a ship in use with hyperspace jump.

Sure, but it remains in the play area. "If that ship remains in the play area at the start of the Status Phase, remove that ship from the play area. [...] It does not become scarred [...]"

The rules for Hyperspace Retreat very very clearly and very very specifically ignore whether or not the ship is destroyed. They don't care at all, not one tiny little bit, about the ship being destroyed, not destroyed, or in some kind of in-between state. A Rieekan ship that gets destroyed is destroyed in some important ways, but also not destroyed in other important ways, and blah blah blah . None of that matters for Hyperspace Retreat. It only matters whether it "remains in the play area at the start of the Status Phase." Is the ship actually destroyed in the nether-verse of hyperspace, or is it in some kind of delayed death that will rush in to claim it the instant the battle concludes? That also matters absolutely not at all. I really can't over-emphasize how completely absent from the Hyperspace Retreat rules any consideration of destroyed/alive status is.

I'm not even saying the ship doesn't get destroyed because of the Hyperspace rule. It's totally destroyed in every way that that matters. Collect your points for destroying it, collect your veteran token for destroying it. It just doesn't get scarred, because the Hyperspace rule is as clear as it can possibly be on the point. Not scarred. "It does not become scarred." That is all. No interpretation or opinion is needed. If it looks like the rule was specifically written to go out of its way in order to allow Rieekan to work, that's because it probably was.

The card says " When a friendly ship or friendly unique squadron is DESTROYED, it remains in the play area and is TREATED as if it was not destroyed until the end of the Status phase."

Thus the minute a ship deals equal or more hull points dmg then the ship has hull, it is DESTROYED, you just delay the suffering of the ship till the end of the Status phase. No no Rieekan can not save a ship in use with hyperspace jump.

Sure, but it remains in the play area. "If that ship remains in the play area at the start of the Status Phase, remove that ship from the play area. [...] It does not become scarred [...]"

The rules for Hyperspace Retreat very very clearly and very very specifically ignore whether or not the ship is destroyed. They don't care at all, not one tiny little bit, about the ship being destroyed, not destroyed, or in some kind of in-between state. A Rieekan ship that gets destroyed is destroyed in some important ways, but also not destroyed in other important ways, and blah blah blah . None of that matters for Hyperspace Retreat. It only matters whether it "remains in the play area at the start of the Status Phase." Is the ship actually destroyed in the nether-verse of hyperspace, or is it in some kind of delayed death that will rush in to claim it the instant the battle concludes? That also matters absolutely not at all. I really can't over-emphasize how completely absent from the Hyperspace Retreat rules any consideration of destroyed/alive status is.

I'm not even saying the ship doesn't get destroyed because of the Hyperspace rule. It's totally destroyed in every way that that matters. Collect your points for destroying it, collect your veteran token for destroying it. It just doesn't get scarred, because the Hyperspace rule is as clear as it can possibly be on the point. Not scarred. "It does not become scarred." That is all. No interpretation or opinion is needed. If it looks like the rule was specifically written to go out of its way in order to allow Rieekan to work, that's because it probably was.

I think that you are technically correct, now having said that it does not feel right to me. I have a hard time believing that is the intent behind the rule, time may tell.

If you've got a different gut feeling about it from mine, there's nothing wrong with that. Personally, I think it's fine in all respects.

Lore-wise? Rieekan's basically known only for retreating from Hoth, so this is pretty much on-brand for him. He's a strong commander when the Rebel team is behind, and he may let them continue to operate even after decisive losses.

Balance-wise? There's a ton of counter-play available. Deal the killing blow to Rieekan ships after he's activated them. They'll still live until the end of the round, but the opportunity to retreat will have passed and it'll get scarred. Deal punishment to his squadrons, which can't use the hyperspace rule to retreat. Bring an Interdictor to the fight so that the retreat option is completely neutralized. Or just enjoy your easy win: you push him out of the planetary system, and you quite possibly take more resources by winning than he saves by not getting scarred.

If you've got a different gut feeling about it from mine, there's nothing wrong with that. Personally, I think it's fine in all respects.

Lore-wise? Rieekan's basically known only for retreating from Hoth, so this is pretty much on-brand for him. He's a strong commander when the Rebel team is behind, and he may let them continue to operate even after decisive losses.

Balance-wise? There's a ton of counter-play available. Deal the killing blow to Rieekan ships after he's activated them. They'll still live until the end of the round, but the opportunity to retreat will have passed and it'll get scarred. Deal punishment to his squadrons, which can't use the hyperspace rule to retreat. Bring an Interdictor to the fight so that the retreat option is completely neutralized. Or just enjoy your easy win: you push him out of the planetary system, and you quite possibly take more resources by winning than he saves by not getting scarred.

Like I said I think you are technically correct, it just feels wrong to say that something that was destroyed does not have to suffer any effect for being destroyed. As far as I can think of he is the only commander who his effect lasts after, if a ship (with only one hull left by Motti) with was to say it is jumping out and Motti was killed it would die before it got to leave, so it just feels wrong, but as I read the rules I can not find where it would say otherwise.