I'm sure this has been asked before, but here's a case I was asked about and had no real, solid answer for.

Can a player use the TFA title to move a 3 speed, do the 180 turn, then use Kanan to clear the stress gained from that maneuver?

Kanan reads:

Once per round, after a friendly ship at Range 1-2 executes a white maneuver, you may remove 1 stress token from that ship.

The title reads:

After you execute a 3-speed bank maneuver ( or ), if you are not touching another ship and you are not stressed, you may receive 1 stress token to rotate your ship 180°

Both say, "After you execute a maneuver..", so my understanding is that when things happen at the same time, you choose the order they happen.

Sop do a white 3 bank, turn 180, get stress, Kanan removes the stress (since the 3 bank is a white maneuver).

Is that legit?

Yes, that's correct.

Is that legit?

The FAQ says the following about Kanan.

Kanan’s ability triggers after the Clean Up substep of the Execute Maneuver step.

So in this case I think yes that works since he triggers after you've gotten the stress. There are some cases that won't work due to the clarification of Kanan, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Thanks for the replies.

And for completeness, remember that you can choose to do it the other way, too. If you have a stress already, you can clear it with Kanan and then do you 180.

Pick your poison.

And for completeness, remember that you can choose to do it the other way, too.

No you can't.

Kanan happens after the Clean Up step, so by the time he's removed the stress, the execute a maneuver trigger has past and you can't rotate the ship.

And for completeness, remember that you can choose to do it the other way, too.

No you can't.

Kanan happens after the Clean Up step, so by the time he's removed the stress, the execute a maneuver trigger has past and you can't rotate the ship.

No, you can. They both have identical triggers, so you can choose to execute them in whatever order you prefer.

They both have identical triggers, so you can choose to execute them in whatever order you prefer.

But Kanan happens after the end of the execute maneuver step, so by the time you've actually used his effect you're past the trigger for spinning the ship. If it doesn't work that way, then what's the point of the FAQ saying he happens after the clean up phase?

So sure you can trigger Kanan first, but he doesn't actually do anything until the triggering event is past.

If you can use Kanan first, then you could just as well say that you can rotate the ship in the combat phase, since it's after performing a white maneuver.

They both have identical triggers, so you can choose to execute them in whatever order you prefer.

But Kanan happens after the end of the execute maneuver step, so by the time you've actually used his effect you're past the trigger for spinning the ship. If it doesn't work that way, then what's the point of the FAQ saying he happens after the clean up phase?

So sure you can trigger Kanan first, but he doesn't actually do anything until the triggering event is past.

If you can use Kanan first, then you could just as well say that you can rotate the ship in the combat phase, since it's after performing a white maneuver.

They

Have

Identical

Triggers.

One is 'after executing a manoeuvre'. The other is 'after a friendly ship executes a manoeuvre'. They're the same.

If two effects have the same trigger, which these do, they can both be triggered, and the order of resolution is initiative if opposing players control them, or player choice if the same player does.

There is no question over this, I'm not sure where you're adding one.

If two effects have the same trigger, which these do, they can both be triggered, and the order of resolution is initiative if opposing players control them, or player choice if the same player does.

I'm well aware of that fact.

There is no question over this, I'm not sure where you're adding one.

Then explain to me what exactly the point of the FAQ for Kanan is then. If they take the trouble to point out he happens after the clean up phase of the execute maneuver step, then what exactly does that mean?

It may be I'm completely missing the point of that FAQ entry, but as I read it, he happens after the trigger has ended. So even if you trigger him, the stress is still there after the execute a maneuver trigger has past.

Ideally I'd like to see you do it without the condescending snark

If two effects have the same trigger, which these do, they can both be triggered, and the order of resolution is initiative if opposing players control them, or player choice if the same player does.

I'm well aware of that fact.

There is no question over this, I'm not sure where you're adding one.

Then explain to me what exactly the point of the FAQ for Kanan is then. If they take the trouble to point out he happens after the clean up phase of the execute maneuver step, then what exactly does that mean?

It may be I'm completely missing the point of that FAQ entry, but as I read it, he happens after the trigger has ended. So even if you trigger him, the stress is still there after the execute a maneuver trigger has past.

Ideally I'd like to see you do it without the condescending snark

Honestly, I don't know what the point of that FAQ is. It doesn't really seem to clarify anthing to me - all it does is confirm that Kanan's effect happens when it happens. It makes no difference to how it interacts with the Falcon title.

It doesn't matter that he happens when the trigger has ended - ALL triggered effects do. And the ability for triggered effectas to wait for one another is eminently enshrined within the rules, c.f. Whisper with FCS, gunner.

So.

Execute manoeuvre

trigger Kanan and title

Execute title, gain stress

Execute Kanan, remove stress.

Or

Execute manouevre (having stress already)

Trigger Kanan and title

Execute Kanan, remove stress

Execute title, gain stress.

Either way works. Why do you suggest otherwise?

Honestly, I don't know what the point of that FAQ is.

If I see a post by you I always consider it carefully because if I disagree then it may very well be me who's mistaken. But this time...

The FAQ has to mean something, and it clearly states that Kanan happens after the execute maneuver phase is over. So while he may trigger the same time as the title, that doesn't mean the stress is gone yet. In fact it's clearly there until after the execute maneuver phase is over.

Trying to trigger the tile after the phase is over is no different then trying to trigger it in the combat phase. The triggering event has ended in either case.

Edit:

Execute Kanan, remove stress

Execute title, gain stress.

Either way works. Why do you suggest otherwise?

Because as I said, the FAQ makes it quite clear that Kanan doesn't remove the stress until after the clean up phase. That means as I read it, the stress still there when you try to trigger the Title. By the time the stress is gone, the triggering event has ended.

If that isn't what the FAQ entry for Kanan means then what's the point?

Honestly, I don't know what the point of that FAQ is.

If I see a post by you I always consider it carefully because if I disagree then it may very well be me who's mistaken. But this time...

The FAQ has to mean something, and it clearly states that Kanan happens after the execute maneuver phase is over. So while he may trigger the same time as the title, that doesn't mean the stress is gone yet. In fact it's clearly there until after the execute maneuver phase is over.

Trying to trigger the tile after the phase is over is no different then trying to trigger it in the combat phase. The triggering event has ended in either case.

Edit:

Execute Kanan, remove stress

Execute title, gain stress.

Either way works. Why do you suggest otherwise?

Because as I said, the FAQ makes it quite clear that Kanan doesn't remove the stress until after the clean up phase. That means as I read it, the stress still there when you try to trigger the Title. By the time the stress is gone, the triggering event has ended.

If that isn't what the FAQ entry for Kanan means then what's the point?

The flip also happens after the manoeuvre has been executed.

The purpose of that FAQ escapes me, I've no idea why they felt it necessary to clarify a card that was already clear.

The purpose of that FAQ escapes me, I've no idea why they felt it necessary to clarify a card that was already clear.

Fair enough. I thought there was cases where people thought they could use Kanan a given way and they put that into the FAQ because it wasn't supposed to work that way.

I'm not going to bother arguing this point any further, because it's truly pointless. Since you can clearly do it one way, trigger the title then Kanan it doesn't matter if you can do it the other way. But while I can't remember any and may be misremembering, I thought there were cases were Kanan didn't work like some people thought.

The FAQ regarding Kana Jarrus is as it is so that he cannot be used in conjunction with either Daredevil or Inertial Dampeners (As much as I wish he could :'( )

I think what SpaceInvader is saying is that you can be stressed, do the white bank, clear the stress, then do the 180 from the title, and then end with a stress token. At least, that's what I get from it.

edit: I need to refresh before replying

The purpose of that FAQ escapes me, I've no idea why they felt it necessary to clarify a card that was already clear.

Fair enough. I thought there was cases where people thought they could use Kanan a given way and they put that into the FAQ because it wasn't supposed to work that way.

I'm not going to bother arguing this point any further, because it's truly pointless. Since you can clearly do it one way, trigger the title then Kanan it doesn't matter if you can do it the other way. But while I can't remember any and may be misremembering, I thought there were cases were Kanan didn't work like some people thought.

I'm just going to take a punt here and run with an assumption (which i generally hate doing), that FFG possibly received a bunch of questions asking if Kanan triggers immediately after step 2a, especially with it being common with newer players that assume executing a manoeuvre is just the movement part of Step 2.

To which FFG have issued the clarification stating he triggers after 2c. Which also clarified (for those that were unsure) that Executing a Manoeuvre is steps 2a, 2b and 2c, and triggers that are "after executing a manouevre" only happen once all three sub-steps have been done.

Kanan's trigger is the same as the falcon title.

The FAQ just clarifies that his ability resolves when the card says. Nothing new with the FAQ entry, nothing changes.

Why add that line then? I dont know. But sometimes they add some things to the FAQ just to make the people stop asking and trying to twist the rules.

Remember they recently felt the need to clarify that Boba Fett (crew) only resolves when the ship he's in is the one that is attacking...

Why wouldn't you flip the ship after the clean up step too if they both have the exact same trigger timing? After reading all this, I still think it works either way.

The thing with Kanan, the MF title, and the FAQ...

Because the two cards have (regarding timing) the exact same wording, it means that they occupy the same timing window and trigger at the exact same time.

(in essence; Kanan's faq entry could also be applied to the falcon title in so far as it affects timing. I would surmise that the falcon title doesn't have a similar faq entry only because it hasn't yet become necessary to add one.)

And we are all obviously familiar with core principle that when a player controls two effects that trigger at the same time then they get to choose which order to implement them in.

Hence the ability to use Kanan in conjunction with the title and to apply their effects in whichever order is most beneficial to you.

The purpose of the FAQ on Kanan is/was to make clear it's interaction with effects such as daredevil and inertial dampeners (in which case Kanan triggers before the stress from these effects is added).

Now I do realise that everything I have just said has been said before, multiple times.

I was just hoping that I might assist somewhat.

Wait, so Kanan doesn't work with Intertial Dampeners? Why, out of curiosity? It seems to me the wording and triggers happen at the same instance.

The FAQ regarding Kana Jarrus is as it is so that he cannot be used in conjunction with either Daredevil or Inertial Dampeners (As much as I wish he could :'( )

Daredevil is a White Maneuver (FAQ'd).... Inertial Dampeners is a White Maneuver....

Kanan effects upon a White Maneuver.

I'm curious as to why it is belived they can't be Kanan'd too because then you bring in the Whole SLAM debate along with it! (SLAM over Debris or Chopper is about the only way you can do it with stress).

The FAQ regarding Kana Jarrus is as it is so that he cannot be used in conjunction with either Daredevil or Inertial Dampeners (As much as I wish he could :'( )

Daredevil is a White Maneuver (FAQ'd).... Inertial Dampeners is a White Maneuver....

Kanan effects upon a White Maneuver.

I'm curious as to why it is belived they can't be Kanan'd too because then you bring in the Whole SLAM debate along with it! (SLAM over Debris or Chopper is about the only way you can do it with stress).

Because Kanan triggers as soon as you execute the white maneuver, interrupting the resolution of Dampeners and Daredevil before they apply their stress tokens. He can remove any existing stress token the ship has, though.

The FAQ regarding Kana Jarrus is as it is so that he cannot be used in conjunction with either Daredevil or Inertial Dampeners (As much as I wish he could :'( )

Daredevil is a White Maneuver (FAQ'd).... Inertial Dampeners is a White Maneuver....

Kanan effects upon a White Maneuver.

I'm curious as to why it is belived they can't be Kanan'd too because then you bring in the Whole SLAM debate along with it! (SLAM over Debris or Chopper is about the only way you can do it with stress).

Because Kanan triggers as soon as you execute the white maneuver, interrupting the resolution of Dampeners and Daredevil before they apply their stress tokens. He can remove any existing stress token the ship has, though.

So, you're suggesting that to do the HotR Falcon Title Sloop... you would (by wording on the card) apply the stress first.

In which case, you are also ruling out a Kanan recovery when doing a SLAM over Debris because the stress from the debris is applied at the check pilot stress step. But in turn, this would then allow a HotR Sloop over debris (not that you would want to double fly over it) and result in having 2 stress.

The FAQ for Kanan is quite old and it was introduced when Check Pilot Stress step was a separate step after executing maneuver. Then there was a FAQ and then there was a move of that step into the Execute maneuver, before clean up step. This is now kind of out of date (because maneuver ends after clean up step in fact).