A question came up recently regarding accuracy corrector interactions with lightweight frame that I can't find a definitive answer to anywhere in the FAQ, rules or the forums here. Basically the question is if you use accuracy corrector to "cancel all your dice results", does that effectively remove those dice for the purposes of abilities like lightweight frame?

Ex. I attack a 2 agility ship using lightweight frame with a 3 attack primary. I cancel whatever I roll via AC and instead add two hits (or even not add the two hits for the purpose of this questions, but just to consider the more common case). Does the defender get the extra dice due to LWF or not in this situation.

I can see two possible interpretations of the rules here...

a) No - canceling dice is effectively removing them, thus AC modified this to a two dice attack. This seems to be the most likely resolution.

b) Yes - canceling dice does not "remove" them, it just invalidates whatever is on them. In this case it seems this would actually count as a *5* attack dice case since adding dice pretty clearly *does* count for cases like LWF. That seems a bit odd, hence my thinking it's probably a).

Would appreciate some clarity. Effective the question is does "canceling" dice remove them for the purposes of abilities like LWF that count or otherwise consider "all" of the dice results.

A) is correct. Cancelled dice are removed from the dice pool; added results are added to the pool, so an attacker using Accuracy Corrector has 2 attack dice when the defender rolls defense dice.

A die and it's result are two separate things, and you don't cancel dice, you cancel their results.

A die and it's result are two separate things, and you don't cancel dice, you cancel their results.

When a result is canceled, a die displaying that result is removed.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

Welcome to the forums, punkUser!

Thanks for the welcome and clarification! I missed that reference to "Cancel" as I was looking in the dice modification section - seems weird placement but definitely clarifies the situation.

It's actually a pretty neat interaction with Accuracy Corrector; it creates some neat emergent mechanics and decisions when using AC. As a fairly underused card it's a cool that it effectively gets a soft buff if more ships with LWF are around.

A die and it's result are two separate things, and you don't cancel dice, you cancel their results.

Exactly the opposite. Results are inextricably linked with dice. Adding a result means adding a dice. Cancelling a dice means cancelling a result. There is no distinction between the two.

Where does the rulebook say this?

Where does the rulebook say this?

I quoted it four posts back... In the Rules Reference, page 8, top left corner, under Cancel.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

Where does the rulebook say this?

I quoted it four posts back... In the Rules Reference, page 8, top left corner, under Cancel.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

Where does the rulebook say this?

I quoted it four posts back... In the Rules Reference, page 8, top left corner, under Cancel.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

Ah, here's the confusion: removed from the common area isn't removed from existence. You'll notice it doesn't say to ignore the die, just it's result.

I dunno about you but I'm not able to "remove something from existence", but maybe I'm just not a magic space wizard like everyone else who plays x-wing.

It seems pretty clear cut that the "common area" refers to being "in play", it might not say it outright, but how else do you read it? To your advantage, in your case.

Where does the rulebook say this?

I quoted it four posts back... In the Rules Reference, page 8, top left corner, under Cancel.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

Ah, here's the confusion: removed from the common area isn't removed from existence. You'll notice it doesn't say to ignore the die, just it's result.

I dunno about you but I'm not able to "remove something from existence", but maybe I'm just not a magic space wizard like everyone else who plays x-wing.

It seems pretty clear cut that the "common area" refers to being "in play", it might not say it outright, but how else do you read it? To your advantage, in your case.

The common area is simply a place where both players can see what was rolled and easily determine results, and there's nothing in the rules that say when a die is removed from this place you should pretend it never happened, only that you should ignore the result.

So not only is it not clear cut that "common area" means "in play" but the rules imply for the common area to be anywhere that both players have in common. If you want that to be in play where all the ships are, fine. But it could also be out of play in a cup off to the side of what's in play.

Do you guys think that Light Weight Frame triggers on the use of the x1's Advanced Targeting Computer too? The added result may be represented by a die, but it's rather obtuse to count it or to not count, in the case of accuracy corrector.

Where does the rulebook say this?

I quoted it four posts back... In the Rules Reference, page 8, top left corner, under Cancel.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

Ah, here's the confusion: removed from the common area isn't removed from existence. You'll notice it doesn't say to ignore the die, just it's result.

I dunno about you but I'm not able to "remove something from existence", but maybe I'm just not a magic space wizard like everyone else who plays x-wing.

It seems pretty clear cut that the "common area" refers to being "in play", it might not say it outright, but how else do you read it? To your advantage, in your case.

It doesn't say in play. Do what the cardrule says to do and not what it doesn't. It doesn't say anything about ignoring the die, and it doesn't say the die has gone anywhere but from the common area.

The common area is simply a place where both players can see what was rolled and easily determine results, and there's nothing in the rules that say when a die is removed from this place you should pretend it never happened, only that you should ignore the result.

So not only is it not clear cut that "common area" means "in play" but the rules imply for the common area to be anywhere that both players have in common. If you want that to be in play where all the ships are, fine. But it could also be out of play in a cup off to the side of what's in play.

Do you guys think that Light Weight Frame triggers on the use of the x1's Advanced Targeting Computer too? The added result may be represented by a die, but it's rather obtuse to count it or to not count, in the case of accuracy corrector.

Of course ATC's die counts.

This isn't obtuse at all. AC leaves 2 dice in play, so that's the number LF considers.

You rolled three dice, counting it later as two because you only rolled one hit is incredibly obtuse, and thankfully not supported by the rules.

You rolled three dice, counting it later as two because you only rolled one hit is incredibly obtuse, and thankfully not supported by the rules.

Wrong.

Cancelled dice are removed entirely from consideration. Added results are added dice.

You rolled three dice, counting it later as two because you only rolled one hit is incredibly obtuse, and thankfully not supported by the rules.

Good job no-one is saying that, huh.

Lightweight Frame does not ask how many dice were rolled. It says: "if there are more attack dice than defense dice."

Note that it says 'are' and not 'were'. It is not referring to the number of dice rolled or the base dice of that attack or any other such thing. It is referring to the number of dice in the attack at the moment Lightweight Frame triggers. If you check the steps in the attack sequence, you may note that the step is 'Modify Dice', not 'Modify Results'. All effects that remove, change, or add results affect physical dice. There is no such thing anywhere in the rules as a result without a corresponding dice.

So, if you roll three dice and you get [Hit], [Focus], and [blank], then you have three dice in the pool, with three different results. No-one has ever suggested otherwise. If a dice gets cancelled, it is removed from the dice pool (essentially removed from play) and thus there are two dice left in the attack. If I add a [Crit] with ATG then there would be four dice in the pool, as adding a dice showing is crit is how adding a crit is done.

You rolled three dice, counting it later as two because you only rolled one hit is incredibly obtuse, and thankfully not supported by the rules.

Wrong.

Cancelled dice are removed entirely from consideration. Added results are added dice.

You rolled three dice, counting it later as two because you only rolled one hit is incredibly obtuse, and thankfully not supported by the rules.

Wrong.

Cancelled dice are removed entirely from consideration. Added results are added dice.

Neither of these two statements are correct. I recommend rereading my post and/or the rulebook.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

Ditto the similar passage which tells you how to handle added results, by taking a die, setting it to the relevant face, and adding it to the pool of attack dice.

You're incorrect. There's nothing else I can really say.

You rolled three dice, counting it later as two because you only rolled one hit is incredibly obtuse, and thankfully not supported by the rules.

Good job no-one is saying that, huh.

You are though. You're saying a three die attack can become a two die attack because you modified the results.

quote]

All effects that remove, change, or add results affect physical dice. There is no such thing anywhere in the rules as a result without a corresponding dice.

You rolled three dice, counting it later as two because you only rolled one hit is incredibly obtuse, and thankfully not supported by the rules.

Wrong.

Cancelled dice are removed entirely from consideration. Added results are added dice.

Neither of these two statements are correct. I recommend rereading my post and/or the rulebook.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

What does this mean, exactly?

Ditto the similar passage which tells you how to handle added results, by taking a die, setting it to the relevant face, and adding it to the pool of attack dice.

You're incorrect. There's nothing else I can really say.

I already explained this: The common area isn't the same as in play. A die removed from the common area still exists.

And now we reach my favorite part of internet "discussion" where we post in circles each side pretending that the other will be magically swayed. I stand by that my interpretation of the rules is correct and yours is obtuse. You stand by the opposite, and we both hope to never play this interaction against each other in real life.
We won't though because I think both Light Weight Frame and Accuracy Correcter are terrible so it'll never come up.

The rules just don't say what you think they say. There's no other way around this situation. The rules say something other than what you want them to.

And now we reach my favorite part of internet "discussion" where we post in circles each side pretending that the other will be magically swayed. I stand by that my interpretation of the rules is correct and yours is obtuse. You stand by the opposite, and we both hope to never play this interaction against each other in real life.

We won't though because I think both Light Weight Frame and Accuracy Correcter are terrible so it'll never come up.

Your mistake is thinking that such discussions on the internet are about changing the other party's mind. As you imply, they are usually not – they are for the audience.

By way of summary, what we have is this:

Where does the rulebook say this?

I quoted it four posts back... In the Rules Reference, page 8, top left corner, under Cancel.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

Ah, here's the confusion: removed from the common area isn't removed from existence. You'll notice it doesn't say to ignore the die, just it's result.

Dude, I think you're overthinking the "common area" way too much here. When a die result is cancelled, the result AND the die are gone from the equation - simple as that. It's NOT hanging around in limbo and still being counted as "originally rolled" or something. And why is that reasoning considered to be obtuse? No one here is being obtuse by saying "that's how you do it".

If you rolled 3 attack dice and got a crit and two blanks, then decided to use Accuracy Corrector to change it to two hit results, when it comes to the compare results stage are you going to ask the opponent to cancel the crit that was originally rolled as well because it "isn't removed from existence"? Because this is what your logic seems to be suggesting. If you count dice that have been removed from the common area as still in play in for some purposes, then it breaks multiple things.

You state Lightweight Frame and Accuracy Corrector are "terrible". A TIE with Lightweight Frame gives it a better chance against a superior attack. Getting a free extra defense die doesn't sound terrible to me. And by using Accuracy Corrector against that TIE you're effectively removing his Lightweight Frame. Again, just how is that terrible?

Where does the rulebook say this?

I quoted it four posts back... In the Rules Reference, page 8, top left corner, under Cancel.

When a die result is canceled, a player takes one die displaying the canceled result and physically removes the die from the common area. Players ignore all canceled results.

Ah, here's the confusion: removed from the common area isn't removed from existence. You'll notice it doesn't say to ignore the die, just it's result.

Dude, I think you're overthinking the "common area" way too much here. When a die result is cancelled, the result AND the die are gone from the equation - simple as that. It's NOT hanging around in limbo and still being counted as "originally rolled" or something. And why is that reasoning considered to be obtuse? No one here is being obtuse by saying "that's how you do it".

Yes. If the sentence about removing them from the common area is tripping us up, let's direct our attention to the sentence that follows: Players ignore all canceled results.

Attacker: Okay, I roll my three attack dice, they come up balls, so I cancel them with Accuracy Corrector and add two [boom] results.

Defender: Okay, I want to see if I can use Lightweight Frame, so I'm going to count the attack dice. There's the two you just added with Accuracy Corrector, plus the three that the rules explicitly tell me to ignore....

FourDogsInaHorseSuit, you're wrong about this. Don't get me wrong, your grasp of argument and rules is very impressive for four dogs in a horse suit, but you're wrong about this.

But by all means, submit a Rules Question Form question about it. When you get your answer, post it here so we can include it in the collection.

Something tells me FourDogs used to play 40k in a tournament setting.

Xwing has a vastly more simple ruleset, im rather impressed without interconnected and clean it is. Yes it has issues, all games have issues, but its got the least issues. There are several instances in this game that doesnt use the exact to the letter description of an action or effect but still behaves the same way: in this case, cancelling dice vs cancelling results. Unless it is specified in the rules somewhere that there IS a difference, theres no difference. Cancelling a dice says you remove it from the common area, but what does cancelling a result do? make it blank? if it made it blank it would leave it open to other shenanigans as theres still the 2-4 original dice +2 added dice on the table.

Leave the rule bickering about exact wording differences to the 40k forums. Which is the reason i stopped going there: way too many people hinging their entire argument on one paragraph is missing a single word, even though it makes no sense without that word in there.

LF has nothing to do with the rolled dice though, which disallows it against AC but allows it against Finn or +1die pilot abilities ala Norra or Backdraft.