So because its possible to get multiple weakness its possible to have both these in play at the same time
Hypochondria says when you take 1 or more damage take 1 horror
Psychosis says when you take 1 or more horror take 1 damage
Does this produce an instant infinate loop on taking any damage or horror that imediately maxes out any horror and damage on your investigator?
Grim rule says yes obviously, but kinda curious on peoples takes and if there is any official ruling on this?
Damage is assigned, then the "when" conditions take place, then damage is dealt.
So if you had both in play, and took 1 horror, Psychosis would have you assign 1 damage. At this point you would assign 1 horror for taking damage. The loop would end there because you're still in the same instance of "taking" damage/horror. Assuming all the stuff was being assigned directly to the investigator, you would take 2 horror and 1 damage in this circumstance. You can reverse it if you initially took 1 damage to be 2 damage and 1 horror. If Your initial assault dealt you 1 horror and 1 damage, you would take 2 horror and 2 damage for the same reasons.
I don't have the rules right in front of me, but this is a combination of what would be under "When" and "Taking Damage/Horror" in the rules reference.
Edit: The cards actually say "after" not "when"... So I think this is a killing loop. Eek.
Edited by SuperMarinoI say that if an investigator has Psychosis and Hypochondria, that investigator is a very sick person who WILL take one damage and/or horror and then immediately fall over dead and insane. Will, because it is Arkham horror and something will happen that causes you to death/insanity spiral.
At first I was all, "that should be errata-ed to a non-weakness source" but after giving a bit more tought I have to admit: I kinda like this kill loop thing better. Go, grim rule!
If you end up with both cards in your deck, you'd best make it a priority to discard them when they show up.
Following the Agnes rule, if you assign damage and horror to assets the loop won't happen.
These cards assign "direct" damage / horror, so they cannot be applied to assets. The term "take damage" from the cards also means that it doesn't matter if it is the investigator or asset that the damage goes to, your investigator still took the damage.
Edit: Agnes card says "After 1 or more horror is placed on Agnes Baker", which means the horror token needs to actually be put on her card.
Edited by SuperMarinoThe term "take damage" from the cards also means that it doesn't matter if it is the investigator or asset that the damage goes to, your investigator still took the damage.
Well, the rules are somewhat ambiguous. While "take damage/horror" is used as shorthand for "deal damage/horror to your investigator" on cards, the entries for "Dealing damage/horror" and "Defeat" suggest that a card takes damage/horror when it is placed on it.
Assign Damage/Horror: Determine the amount of damage and/or horror being dealt. Place damage and/or horror tokens equal to the amount of damage and horror being dealt next to the cards that will be taking the damage/horror .
Defeat
Taking damage and/or horror may cause an investigator, enemy, or asset to be defeated.
I don't think it is really that ambiguous, you just need to read through the full definitions.
Taking Damage/Horror"Take X damage" is shorthand for "deal X damage to your investigator." "Take X horror" is shorthand for "deal X horror to your investigator."
Dealing Damage/HorrorThere are two types of afflictions that may beset an investigator in the game: damage and horror. Damage afflicts an investigator's health, and horror afflicts an investigator's sanity.When an investigator or enemy is dealt damage and/or horror, follow these steps, in order:1. Assign Damage/Horror: Determine the amount of damage and/or horror being dealt. Place damage and/or horror tokens equal to the amount of damage and horror being dealt next to the cards that will be taking the damage/horror.
- When an investigator is dealt damage or horror, that investigator may assign it to eligible asset cards he or she controls. To be eligible, an asset card must have health in order to be assigned damage, and it must have sanity in order to be assigned horror.
- An asset cannot be assigned damage beyond the amount of damage it would take to defeat the card, and cannot be assigned horror beyond the amount of horror it would take to defeat the card.
- All damage/horror that cannot be assigned to an asset must be assigned to the investigator.
2. Apply Damage/Horror: Any assigned damage/horror that has not been prevented is now placed on each card to which it has been assigned, simultaneously. If no damage/horror is applied in this step, no damage/horror has been successfully dealt.
- Abilities that prevent, reduce, or reassign damage and/or horror that is being dealt are resolved between steps 1 and 2.
- After applying damage/horror, if an investigator has damage equal to or higher than his or her health or horror equal to or higher than his or her sanity, he or she is defeated. When an investigator is defeated, he or she is eliminated from the scenario (see "Elimination" on page 10).
- After applying damage/horror, if an enemy has damage equal to or higher than its health, it is defeated and placed in the encounter discard pile (or in its owner's discard pile if it is a weakness).
- After applying damage/horror, if an asset has damage equal to or higher than its health or horror equal to or higher than its sanity, it is defeated and placed in its owner's discard pile.
So Take X Damage = Deal X Damage to your investigator. Okay.
So what happens? As per the rules quoted above, but removing everything that is kinda irrelevant:
When an investigator or enemy is dealt damage and/or horror, follow these steps, in order:
1. Assign Damage/Horror
2. Apply Damage/Horror
Assigning and Applying are the two steps of Taking (or Being Dealt) Damage/Horror. Damage/Horror you assign to an asset of yours is still "Taken" by the investigator. Direct Damage/Horror is distinct in that it can only be assigned to the investigator card, and Agnes' ability specifically requires the horror to be placed on her (Placed meaning successfully applied in this case).
I hope that clears it up.
I sent the question in and received this response:
Greetings!
I sent the question in and received this response:
Greetings!
If I have Hypochondria out, and damage is dealt to me but I assign it to an asset, do I take the extra horror from hypochondria?
Yes! When you assign damage to an asset, you are still considered to have taken the damage even though it isn’t placed on your investigator.
If I have both Hypochondria out and Psychosis out, and I am dealt either damage or horror, do those two weaknesses loop on each other to kill my investigator?
Yep. =OCheers,------------------------------------------------Matthew Newman
Yikes!
So you scrub so hard to get the blood off that it makes you bleed, then you keep scrubbing to get rid of THAT blood...
oh God !
The best part is that this can actually happen in "The Devourer Below" scenario, thanks to the
Agenda 2b
and
The Yellow Sign
you can get both weaknesses and some horror in a single mythos phase
That's so awesome. You have to admire a game with an intentionally lethal infinite loop.
That's so awesome. You have to admire a game with an intentionally lethal infinite loop.
It's a Cthulhu game alright!
Kill loop is about teh same level as this:
Ouch. That's harch.
The infinite loop makes sense, but assigning it to an asset very specifically prevents you, the investigator, from "taking" the damage. If you can assign all initial damage/horror to an asset, that will prevent the cards from triggering.
*edit - just reread the official response post, apparently I am wrong.
That's so awesome. You have to admire a game with an intentionally lethal infinite loop.
It's a Cthulhu game alright!
Kill loop is about teh same level as this:
Ouch. That's harch.
Is that and official card? :'D
Is that and official card? :'D
Yup! Don't you love it when a game flat out states you have lost?
http://epicslant.com/2015/05/gateway-to-horror-elder-sign/
The same goes for Azathoth in the Call of Cthulhu LCG:
Especially funny is that you will kill yourself with this card. (It is consistent with the backstory for Azathoth.)
No matter wich game: Azathoth is bad news!
In the Chaosium RPG, Cthulhu had this rule where "Each round 1D6 investigators get scooped up in Cthulhu's flabby claws to die hidiously." (and his attacks had 100% hit chance anyway.) So in a nutshell that's Call of Cthulhu gaming: Win before the great Old Ones show up or it's GG.
@SuperMarino : Then, there is a problem with the second sentence of the Assign step, because it says "taking damage" with the meaning "having damage applied to it" (otherwise, you'd enter an infinite loop each you deal damage or horror).
Ah, I think I see what you found ambiguous now.
The Taking Damage/Horror text specifically says: "Take X damage" is shorthand for "deal X damage to your investigator."
The part that you are using to start an infinite loop doesn't say "Take X damage", it says, "Place damage and/or horror tokens equal to the amount of damage and horror being dealt next to the cards that will be taking the damage/horror." I suppose for clarity they could change it to say, "...that is taking the damage/horror" or replace taking with applied, but the sentence reads okay and doesn't say any form of the action "Take X damage". So it wouldn't kick off a recursive tragedy loop. Not this time at least!
Ah, I think I see what you found ambiguous now.
The Taking Damage/Horror text specifically says: "Take X damage" is shorthand for "deal X damage to your investigator."
The part that you are using to start an infinite loop doesn't say "Take X damage", it says, "Place damage and/or horror tokens equal to the amount of damage and horror being dealt next to the cards that will be taking the damage/horror." I suppose for clarity they could change it to say, "...that is taking the damage/horror" or replace taking with applied, but the sentence reads okay and doesn't say any form of the action "Take X damage". So it wouldn't kick off a recursive tragedy loop. Not this time at least!
this appears to have been ruled by one of the game designers to create an auto kill loop. according to Matt, placing damage on assets is still taking damage.
Ah, I think I see what you found ambiguous now.
The Taking Damage/Horror text specifically says: "Take X damage" is shorthand for "deal X damage to your investigator."
The part that you are using to start an infinite loop doesn't say "Take X damage", it says, "Place damage and/or horror tokens equal to the amount of damage and horror being dealt next to the cards that will be taking the damage/horror." I suppose for clarity they could change it to say, "...that is taking the damage/horror" or replace taking with applied, but the sentence reads okay and doesn't say any form of the action "Take X damage". So it wouldn't kick off a recursive tragedy loop. Not this time at least!
this appears to have been ruled by one of the game designers to create an auto kill loop. according to Matt, placing damage on assets is still taking damage.
I guess I should have quoted the post above mine. That person was specifically saying the rules alone are ambiguous and cause a loop that leads to elimination any time you take any damage. I was helping with that.
I know that having both of these cards caused auto elimination (I said that in my first post) , but that wasn't where the conversation was anymore.
Most of the points you made are what I said in a previous post...
