Shuttle Tydirium Episode 35: Rogue One, Thoroughly Spoiled

I thought we were going to call it "Spoiler Alert"

I rate the film 8/10. There were enough minor details that I'd have preferred be done differently that it knocks it down a notch, and I'd have changed the ending slightly (Jyn and Bodhi would have survived in my version, as would Scarif Base).

Favorite characters include K-2SO, Bodhi Rook, Admiral Raddus, and Jyn herself. Vader's bits were quite good, but Tarkin just irritates me. He proved himself to be petty and arrogant to the point of wasting all manner of Imperial resources in the name of his jealousy. In ANH he's arrogant, sure, but the context that R1 adds to his behavior makes him look downright incompetent.

Re the effects, Tarkin had a moment or two where you could tell he was CGI, but the rest of his screen time he looked sufficiently natural. Leia, on the other hand, was worse than Tarkin and far more disruptive to the film. I figured that the Star Destroyer with the harsh lighting bit had to do with sunrise over the planet and it seemed fine to me in the moment.

Re the fan service, the R2-D2/C-3PO cameo was super jarring and should have been moved (and rewritten) to the Tantive IV at the end of the film, the Doctor Evazan/Ponda Baba cameo was a little less subtle than it should have been, but the rest were fine. I loved how they incorporated Red and Gold leaders.

The Partisans were bad mostly because they were entirely unconcerned about civilian casualties and collateral damage, which tactics the rest of the Rebellion objected too, hence their schism. General Draven was probably more sympathetic to their tactics, given his parts in the film, to the point of being counterproductive to the interests of the Rebellion (the kill-only order against Galen Orso was utterly moronic).

Based on the Rebel council meeting, it seems likely that destroying the Death Star was the only thing that kept the Alliance intact. It looked very much like the flaky elements were on the verge of bailing. Raddus forced the hand of the ones who were more committed to the cause out of the (likely justified) fear that the Death Star would be turned against Mon Calamar almost as soon as it was proven effective in a live situation. If the Yavin IV base had been destroyed, the reluctant elements of the Rebellion would have faded away or even outright flipped on their former allies, but by destroying the Death Star they were able to get a much firmer commitment from those same reluctant participants, hence being so well equipped in ESB and (especially) RotJ.

Edit: Regarding bridges. The Mon Cal bridge was following the same pattern as all the civilian bridges. Look at the raised bridges on the GR-75 and some of the Mon Cal cruisers in RotJ (you can see them when the Falcon is flying past). Even the purpose-built Mon Cal warships feature that kind of bridge, though more heavily enclosed and protected. The one in R1 was under-slung instead of top mounted, but was otherwise pretty much the same design. As for Star Destroyers, they have extensive bridge shielding and they're behind the entire firepower of the dorsal turrets and cannon emplacements (which on SDs are pretty much all the guns).

Regarding casualties, the best Imperial gunnery crew in the galaxy was on that research base. It dropped something like three or four X-Wings with a single turbolaser battery before getting blown up by a cheesy TIE-Fighter-destroyed-by-a-hand-weapon bit.

Edit 2: Y-Wings. They used Ion Torpedoes against the SD. They used some kind of proper bomb (dropped from underneath) on their runs on the gate structure, which was when they realized that they didn't have the firepower to pop the planetary shield in time (leading to the Hammerhead suicide mission).

Edit 3: More SD stuff. I assume that the edge of the wedge is heavily reinforced, and the superstructures less so. When the densest part of the ship which also happens to be blade-like in conformation impacts edge-on with a significantly more fragile superstructure it makes a certain amount of sense that it would essentially sheer off the raised portion from the wedge base. As for the arrival of the Devastator, its crew was already at combat stations. The other two SDs were caught entirely by surprise and, being garrison troops instead of 501st veterans, their reaction time was horrible. For all we know they were even stationed there for work-up or light repair or something, putting them at an even greater disadvantage (especially in comparison to an active duty flagship).

For the overall tactical situation, too, the Rebels arrived suddenly and got a few key blows in immediately, but even after destroying both SDs there were enough TIEs already in play that they were not going to win the space battle. The arrival of the Devastator was just the icing on the cake. The Rebels were already planning to withdraw into hyperspace before the sheer number of in-flight TIEs overwhelmed them but when Vader's SD came out with guns blazing even that went out the window and the battle was over at a stroke. It's a sort of classic hit-and-run raid that got caught by enemy reinforcements, which is why that kind of tactic, necessary though it may be, is incredibly risky.

Edit 4: I really should finish this post some day. K-2SO should have been both a pilot and a crew for the U-Wing. I'd say his pilot ability should have to do with obstacles (he was flying during the destruction of Jedda) and his crew ability with combat somehow.

Observations:

(1) The droid stole the movie, again. (BB-8 did it in TFA).

(2) Vader, yep. But here's a question: Vader is a total badass, soloing a bunch of Rebel Troopers as he storms a frigate. An hour later, he's leisurely hanging out at the back as he lets his stormtroopers board a corvette, taking many casualties. I mean, what gives? Did Vader get tired, deserve his guys needed to be punished, hit his quota of light saber kills for the day?

(3) Made my top three, but not better than ESB or Star Wars. I feel that both of those films had better developed stories and characterization than R1. R1 is very close, but some improved editing would have helped. Some of the exposition that was in the trailers, for example, would have helped flesh out Jyn, but was oddly dropped. Dropping a few cutesy references would have helped too (R2/3PO, Ponda Baba)

(4) Really enjoyed no Jedi (minus Vader, but he's almost a cameo). Real people, real soldiers, impossible odds, predictable outcomes. Nice to see a Star Wars movie that emphasizes the idea of "Wars, not Space Wizards".

(5) CGI: wish they woulld have shadowed Tarkin a bit more, but it was OK. Leia was all kinds of creepy uncanny valley for me, but I understand others feel differently.

Question for y'all -- how much do you feel R1 can stand alone? I feel like it has elements that imply knowledge about the universe (Rebellion, Empire) that make it difficult for it to stand on its own -- and the way a few reveals were done, Leia's in particular, work that way (that scene was set up for folks to cheer that Leia got the plans ... if you'd never seen a Star Wars movie before, what would you think?)

(2) Vader, yep. But here's a question: Vader is a total badass, soloing a bunch of Rebel Troopers as he storms a frigate. An hour later, he's leisurely hanging out at the back as he lets his stormtroopers board a corvette, taking many casualties. I mean, what gives? Did Vader get tired, deserve his guys needed to be punished, hit his quota of light saber kills for the day?

Different Situations ... in Rogue One, Vader was trying to stop the fleeing Troopers from getting into the Corvette and escaping with the plans. Remember - they were on the large Mon Cal Cruiser rushing to the Corvette docking tunnel. Presumably the Stormtroopers took the same lead on the MC Cruiser, but Vader moved to secure the plans personally, only to find the little buggers on the run. Because he was on board, he then couldn't give chase after they locked to door. In A New Hope, the Corvette was contained within the confines of the Devastator - no chance for them to escape anywhere - so Vader was content to wait for Stormtroopers to subdue the Rebels while he waited outside to ensure no one got off the ship or there was an even smaller escape craft. Irony states ... there was.

Another point to keep in mind on the general state of Imperial unreadiness:

The text crawl was that the ships sent from the rebel base scored "their first victory." A garrison fleet at the edge of the Galaxy is hardly going to worry about a 'rebel threat' at this stage of the war. These ships are more concerned with with looking threatening than actual combat. In all honesty, they make the perfect target of a first victory.

Question for y'all -- how much do you feel R1 can stand alone? I feel like it has elements that imply knowledge about the universe (Rebellion, Empire) that make it difficult for it to stand on its own -- and the way a few reveals were done, Leia's in particular, work that way (that scene was set up for folks to cheer that Leia got the plans ... if you'd never seen a Star Wars movie before, what would you think?)

Sorry, missed this during the holiday. Stand alone? Hmmm....that's a tough one. I don't know. I'm not sure it's a good stand alone. I'm not sure any of them beyond Ep 4 are. Does it matter?

Sorry, missed this during the holiday. Stand alone? Hmmm....that's a tough one. I don't know. I'm not sure it's a good stand alone. I'm not sure any of them beyond Ep 4 are. Does it matter?

It doesn't matter for our enjoyment of the movies; we're already fans.

But the franchise can't live on on fan service alone. These "Star Wars Stories" movies are supposed to be independent one-offs; it would be helpful to grow the franchise if someone who isn't already a Star Wars fan can drop into one, understand and enjoy it, and then use it as a gateway to the rest of the Star Wars universe.

Sure, things that assume you already know Star Wars will pander to the fanbase and have a guaranteed audience ... but it will be a declining one.

Does Rogue One meet that requirement? I don't quite think do. TFA does, almost, but there's a lot in the framing of that movie that is unaccessable unless you already know the references.

The only thing I didn't like about the move was the distinct lack of Bothan spies. Also the district lack of said Botham spies deaths.

The only thing I didn't like about the move was the distinct lack of Bothan spies. Also the district lack of said Botham spies deaths.

That's being saved for the sequel. "Many Bothans: A Star Wars Movie".

The only thing I didn't like about the move was the distinct lack of Bothan spies. Also the district lack of said Botham spies deaths.

Er, that was the Death Star at Endor... Of course... Unless, you just don't like bothans... I can get behind that bit

The only thing I didn't like about the move was the distinct lack of Bothan spies. Also the district lack of said Botham spies deaths.

Wrong Death Star. Bothan spies stole DS2 plans.

Rogue One doesn't stand alone necessarily but you know what? That's perfectly fine. Neither does Return of the Jedi or Empire Strikes Back and the latter is one of the greatest films ever made period.

To me Rogue One pulls off what Return of the Jedi didnt which is match an incredible space battle with an equally epic ground battle, and Rogue One actually manages to make the ground battle one of the best if not best in all of Star Wars.

Rogue One did a lot with very few scenes to develop the politics of both the Rebel Alliance and the Empire in a mature and realistic way that does a lot to augment our understanding of both organizations and how they function. The fact is on both sides most people didnt seem ready for the galactic civil war except for a few exceptional people.

So for me the new original trilogy, in chronological order, is Rogue One, A New Hope, and Empire Strikes Back.

What Rogue One confirmed for me is that I want to see more films and more stories set in the Rebellion era. They wouldn't even necessarily have to tie in with the Original Trilogy like Rogue One does, but just be set amid the turmoil of that era.

Sorry, missed this during the holiday. Stand alone? Hmmm....that's a tough one. I don't know. I'm not sure it's a good stand alone. I'm not sure any of them beyond Ep 4 are. Does it matter?

It doesn't matter for our enjoyment of the movies; we're already fans.

But the franchise can't live on on fan service alone. These "Star Wars Stories" movies are supposed to be independent one-offs; it would be helpful to grow the franchise if someone who isn't already a Star Wars fan can drop into one, understand and enjoy it, and then use it as a gateway to the rest of the Star Wars universe.

Sure, things that assume you already know Star Wars will pander to the fanbase and have a guaranteed audience ... but it will be a declining one.

Does Rogue One meet that requirement? I don't quite think do. TFA does, almost, but there's a lot in the framing of that movie that is unaccessable unless you already know the references.

OK...it doesn't stand on it's own, but it's also not in a vacuum. Who alive today that has a chance to see Rogue One doesn't know who Darth Vader is? Or have some idea of what the Death Star is? I don't think it's very possible to really be alive and have a chance of seeing Rogue One without having some vague idea of what Star Wars is. On that level, I think it can be an entry level movie. It leads well enough into Ep 4 for you to then follow along.

Still working my way through the podcast ... fun discussion on the capital ship battle.

If you haven't played Armada, that battle was an excellent Armada battle, between the ramming, maneuvering, ionizing, broadsiding, fighter sweeps, fighter-bombers versus capital ships, ISD II murderizing small ships, etc. But it was much shorter than an Armada game battle!

I wouldn't expect a lot of high caliber crews guarding the equivalent of a data center, so the Imperial response seemed realistic to me -- caught ith their pants down, not their best troops, they don't have the strongest response, and you see a big difference when reinforcements arrived.

The hammerhead ram (and looking forward to a Hammerhead corvette for Armada and maybe an X-wing Epic ship!) was a neat piece, though the bit where the ISD tore up the other ISD was a bit off to me, unfortunately; I could not disengage the part of my brain that said "the two ISDs are at near zero relative velocity, so they'll bump and push each other off course, but one is simply not going to tear up the superstructure of the other like that!" Would have worked better for me had the hammerhead just pushed the ionized ISD into the gate. (By the way, I think these should have been VSDs, not ISDs, to make the size and firepower of Devastator that much more impressive)

Devastator attack ... in Armada game terms, an ISD is capable of that sort of damage output ... plus I figured at that point in the battle the shields are weakened or down on many of the small ships so they're vulnerable.

Loved, loved Red, Blue & Gold squadrons in action -- seeing Y-wings in their element with ion torp attacks and bomb runs was worth the price of admission alone.

Ground battle ... good to see competent but beatable troops on both sides; the confusion the small force inflicts is evident but it's clear that in time they'll be overmatched by the weight of the garrison, even with some reinforcements and air cover once the shield is closed. Resulted in an appropriate ending!

Edit: On sequels.

I think this movie should have had an opening crawl and the iconic Star Wars music at the beginning ... is a Star Wars trademark. Though now that they've broken it ... be consistent.

Young Han Solo ... shudder ... this could go so wrong, so quickly. I hope it doesn't. I'd like to see Cadet Solo earn his bloodstripes, save a Wookie, get expelled, and become a smuggler. (Plus Cadet Fel!)

And I'm with you on Boba Fett movies. I don't want to see young Boba Fett. I never want to see Fett again without his helmet, or a mask on -- keep him faceless, relatively silent, and mysterious (linking him to the clones was a stupid decision -- the clones can be Mandalorian, fine, but Fett was fan **** in Ep II). Personally, I'd like to see -- heck, I'd write the script -- the first Fett movie be a Western-style adaptation of Yojimbo to match his iconic origins, and then we can go on to do the whole series ( A Fistful of Credits ; For a Few Credits More ; The Jedi, the Sith, and the Bounty Hunter ) to play up the whole anti-hero theme. Wrap up just as Boba Fett gets notified that Darth Vader has a new bounty offer: link up with the Executor in the Anoat System ...

They've already done some young Boba stuff in the Clone Wars - and it's not bad. He's focused mostly on revenge against Windu, and it has some neat storyline elements that actually made me LIKE Boba Fett.

Never cared about Boba personally, always thought he was just WAAAAY overhyped as a character. Like that Cracked video said, "Bubba Feets just kinda stood around and didn't do anything but die." But TCW let us see what shaped him early on more than a ham-fisted "You got a helmet filled with the head of your father who's just an ordinary man trying to make his way in the world!" I won't say that they're the best episodes of TCW, but they do stand above the midline.

In regards to a Boba Fett movie, it COULD work and it seems in recent years that studios have learned that you can have a main character in a mask that doesn't take it off every two minutes.

I'd like to see what Disney could do with the other bounty hunters myself.

I mean, watching Bossk in action - with modern practical effects - could be amazing. The same goes for IG-88.

Dengar and Boba buddy movie.

I'd like to see what Disney could do with the other bounty hunters myself.

I mean, watching Bossk in action - with modern practical effects - could be amazing. The same goes for IG-88.

We already saw that.

"You got Bossked."

As a side note, I really love the used car salesman Dengar. It makes me laugh so hard.

(2) Vader, yep. But here's a question: Vader is a total badass, soloing a bunch of Rebel Troopers as he storms a frigate. An hour later, he's leisurely hanging out at the back as he lets his stormtroopers board a corvette, taking many casualties. I mean, what gives? Did Vader get tired, deserve his guys needed to be punished, hit his quota of light saber kills for the day?

Different Situations ... in Rogue One, Vader was trying to stop the fleeing Troopers from getting into the Corvette and escaping with the plans. Remember - they were on the large Mon Cal Cruiser rushing to the Corvette docking tunnel. Presumably the Stormtroopers took the same lead on the MC Cruiser, but Vader moved to secure the plans personally, only to find the little buggers on the run. Because he was on board, he then couldn't give chase after they locked to door. In A New Hope, the Corvette was contained within the confines of the Devastator - no chance for them to escape anywhere - so Vader was content to wait for Stormtroopers to subdue the Rebels while he waited outside to ensure no one got off the ship or there was an even smaller escape craft. Irony states ... there was.

Maybe as a Force user he was the only one who fast enough found the data disc in the correct one of the many corridors in an enemy ship, the accompanying stormtroopers (remembering Prowse stride!) not able to keep up.

I'd love to see a Young Boba Fett film. My ideal for it would have him investigating rumors (maybe on behalf of the Empire, maybe on his own, maybe working for a Coruscant gang of some kind) of a Jedi operating in the undercity of Coruscant. He'll eventually figure out that Mace Windu survived his fight with Emps and Ani and will get a chance to avenge his father while also proving that he actually is as good as all the hype.

I figure, give him a max word count and force the writers to stick to it. If they go over, fire them and get new ones who can do better. Maybe, say, 200 words or less. Forcing them to be on a dialog budget for their lead would leave them with no option but to make him the classic man-of-few-words gunslinger. Go for a western vibe, go for a bit of an Inigo Montoya kind of plot, and give him a chance to silence all the nay-sayers and smack-talkers, but whatever you do don't make him wordy or fill his dialog with quips and puns. Leave that to the comic relief local guide/contact who he ends up turning in for a bounty (or otherwise leaving to whatever fate he has earned for himself by that point) once Windu is dead.