I don't like the Advanced Targeting Array attachment for starships/vehicles. The base bonus grants a free upgrade for all attacks made with weapons mounted on the vehicle, and a mod increases this to two upgrades. This effectively devalues Gunnery (or, to a much lesser extent, Agility in the rare low-Agility & high-Gunnery character) and it's a passive ability that requires no effort from the shooters. There is also a mod adding a rank of True Aim, and I'm actually OK with this because it's an active ability. Finally, the most irritating thing to me is the rank of Sniper Shot that can be picked up with a mod. I don't like sniper shot for starship/vehicle combat (where Difficulty isn't based on range to begin with). I've seen this attachment become a "must-have" time and again, and it's both cheap and low-Rarity so it shows up frequently.

So, after reading that, I'm sure many readers will just tune out since they are OK with the ATA, and that's great--the rest of this thread is not for you.

For those that are still here, I'm kicking around some ideas for how to adjust this attachment. The only thing that I don't dislike about it is the True Aim mod. With that in mind, I need to figure out a new base ability and a few mod options. What I'm considering is the following:

Base Modifiers: Downgrades the difficulty of Gunnery checks when firing mounted weapons by one.

Modification Options: 1 Additional downgrade Mod, 1 Innate Talent (True Aim) Mod, 1 [something...still working on it] Mod

Changing the ability upgrade to a difficulty downgrade makes it useful for countering evasive maneuvers, whether taken by the firing ship or by the target. However, what it does not do is jack the Gunnery pool sky high the way the standard Attachment does.

Input?

So, my character is the Chief Weapons Officer onboard the CR-90 in our Roll20 game, and makes use of the ATA when operating the ship’s guns. He also has two ranks of True Aim of his own. IIRC, the way we’ve been doing it in our game is that I can either use my own ranks of True Aim when firing the ships weapons, or I can use the ATA, but I can’t do both. And I’m perfectly fine with that.

The Gunnery Droid Brain wouldn’t help me at all, because I already have four ranks of Gunnery skill (or maybe five ranks by now), and Agility is my top attribute (at four).

But the ATA and the Gunnery Droid Brain would definitely help a lot of the other people on the ship, who either don’t have the skill, or don’t have the Agility, or don’t have either.

Thinking about it, upgrading the check will add green dice if there are no other green dice to upgrade to yellow, but downgrading the check will never take away purple dice if there are no red dice to downgrade.

So, I would not be happy with downgrading the difficulty instead of upgrading the check. You could reduce the difficulty, and I’d be fine with that trade.

You could also have modifications to the ATA that would allow you to remove setback not caused by the opponents shields (so coming from environmental or other conditions), as opposed to the Sniper Shot or True Aim talents.

But I still think it would be a bit munchkin for me to stack the ATA on top of my own personal skills, attributes, and talents. At least, for my character. It might not be too munchkin for the others on the ship.

The RAW is that the granted True Aim would stack with any ranks you've purchased. It's still slightly less powerful than the base ability that provides an upgrade passively.

By the RAW, the fully modified ATA can give you two upgrades passively and it increases your True Aim by +1 rank. If you were already using Aim, that's a minimum of three upgrades and even more if you have any purchased ranks of True Aim. To make it even more over the top, it applies to every weapon mounted on the ship, which isn't so bad on a Y-wing, but it's another story on a capital ship (or even a Gozanti).

In defense of ATA, it does cost one hard point.

I can see the need for something like it to let PCs who didn't spec gunnery be useful in combat, but yeah- as it stands, it's ludicrously overpowered. Letting it give ranks of gunnery rather than stack with them (i.e. it gives Gunnery 1 or Gunnery 2 if modded) is a fix, but that does still devalue Gunnery a bit as a 30xp investment only gives you 1 upgrade over just using the computer. If you had to suffer Strain or System Strain per rank gained, that might help.

Alternatively, it could allow you to re-roll positive dice in a check? Means a character with greens (with proportionally more blanks on) gets more use out of it, but a character with yellows still gains some benefit.

I could see this version being used on millitry craft, after all I imagine that these super advanced targetting systems would allow for those pilots to roll very high efficiency combat checks in stressful situations. That and most of the time starship combat is an afterthought to my party.

Your preposed changes sounds good from the perspective of making players actually invest in gunnery.

You could also limit the number of weapons (say two) that can use the ATA at one time, and then having mods to increase the number of weapons (say two more) that can use it. Since adding additional weapons to an existing weapons emplacement doesn't take another hardpoint, you could buy additional ATAs to supplement what you already have without consuming another hardpoint.

ATA is not overpowered

I mean you can just switch off your targeting computer and do just fine, trust in the force

Didn't Luke blast a TIE fighter his first time in the gunnery seat of the Falcon ? Tongue-in-cheek aside, there does seem to be a repeatable pattern of characters suddenly having Gunnery skills. Anakin, Luke, and Finn all make a kill within seconds in their first engagement, all using ATAs. At least it's true to form if a bit über.

I like the suggestion of downgrading the difficulty but I wonder if perhaps just adding a minion or two would suffice as an easy solution. It would be interesting to see your results from trying this out.

I have always disliked ATA and I agree with others that the worst part is that it applies to all weapons on the ship. Downgrading difficulty is something I hadn't thought of and do kinda like. I'd personally go with something like this:

ATA: Applies to one weapon

Base: 1 Innate Talent (True Aim)

Modifications: 1 downgrade difficulty once mod, 3 increase weapons effected by array by one mods

Re: sudden gunnery skills - All those characters presumedly had decent agilities (two pilots and a ranged combatant) which (in an AAABBDD pool) will produce a success 73% of the time and 3 successes 28-ish% of the time. Assuming a medium laser cannon, the former will kill a TIE in 2 hits and the latter will destroy a TIE outright. The point is that characters don't need to have ranks in gunnery to have a decent chance at a kill.

I guess I would like to know more about the problem about ATA then juat not like the bonuses before recommending changes.

For example:

If it makes encounters meaningless then have less space combat. Or one could use the squadron rules for star fighters and make the bad guys meatier.

Could also increase the attachment cost. Make 2 instead one. Which would be my recommendation. As THE main rEason ATA is a must have is because of its low attachment cost. Could also increase the credit cost by x2 or x3. Or make the credot cost a flat 2000 x silhouette or number of weapons. Outfitting 4 weapon groups each have the linked quality could be very expensive. Which would be enough to disinterest your players. Or make the value of such a boon more meaningful.

IMHO, I would recommend small changes out side of dice mechanics first. Then adjust as necessary.

Having less starship/vehicle battles is not an acceptable answer as these are a mainstay of almost all Star Wars stories, even those involving characters that prefer to use lightsabers.

I guess I would like to know more about the problem about ATA then juat not like the bonuses before recommending changes.

Since it applies to all weapons on the ship, it allows a potential significant increase in capability of the PCs, for one hard point and a relatively low fixed cost. And because of the way it works, it will stack well on top of high attributes/high skills/aiming talents.

The result could be a “fistful of dice” problem where the game is more likely to start breaking down.

Downgrading difficulty would also stack, to a degree. But there are relatively few situations in which there are Challenge dice that you have to face in combat when firing at an enemy ship, so in those cases downgrading the difficulty would have no effect. And that would effectively make the ATA useless.

Decreasing the difficulty would always have an impact (up to the point where all difficulty dice are removed), but the primary effect would be to make it easier for larger ships to successfully fire on smaller ships, since initial difficulty is determined largely by silhouette difference.

Having less starship/vehicle battles is not an acceptable answer as these are a mainstay of almost all Star Wars stories, even those involving characters that prefer to use lightsabers.

Understood. Apologies.

I guess I would like to know more about the problem about ATA then juat not like the bonuses before recommending changes.

Since it applies to all weapons on the ship, it allows a potential significant increase in capability of the PCs, for one hard point and a relatively low fixed cost. And because of the way it works, it will stack well on top of high attributes/high skills/aiming talents.

The result could be a “fistful of dice” problem where the game is more likely to start breaking down.

Downgrading difficulty would also stack, to a degree. But there are relatively few situations in which there are Challenge dice that you have to face in combat when firing at an enemy ship, so in those cases downgrading the difficulty would have no effect. And that would effectively make the ATA useless.

Decreasing the difficulty would always have an impact (up to the point where all difficulty dice are removed), but the primary effect would be to make it easier for larger ships to successfully fire on smaller ships, since initial difficulty is determined largely by silhouette difference.

My apologies, I should have been more specific in my earlier post. I should have said, "I would like to know more about what HappyDaze sees is the problem about ATA." I did not want to speculate on possible solutions without have a further understanding of issue at hand. I agree with your observations, and I am hoping HappyDaze could provide some additional insight so we can better assist.

For what it is worth, has there been any root cause analysis on what the problem might be? There are a bunch of different kinds of root cause analysis tools out there that could help. I know a common method is to use the "7 Why's?" approach.

For example: (and this is pulling what I can from the OP)

Statement: I don't like the Advanced Targeting Array

1. Why?: It effectively devalues Gunnery and/or Agility

2. Why?:

Statement: I don't like the passive ability for the Advanced Targeting Array

1. Why?: It requires no effort from the shooters

2. Why?

Statement: I don't like the price and rarity for the Advanced Targeting Array

1. Why?: Because it makes the ATA to easily affordable and obtainable

2. Why?:

I found about three main concerns in the OP. This is the best I could do with the information at hand. If you decide to pursue this further, I would recommend starting with the first statement before tackling the other two. It is very possible as you work and solve the first one, the other two get solved along the way. Also, and I do stress this, be open to changing your initial statement based on your questions/answers. It is entirely possible that the solution you seek may lay outside of what you initially see as the problem.

Looking at things from the players perspective a lot of characters will just not have a good reason to get gunnery, on the ground they have no interest in lugging around expensive and illegal missle tubes, and perhaps their concepts revolve around something other then space combat.

These players are apparently going to be forced into space combat from time to time, so what does an colonist or a technician do to be more effective.

1. ATA

2. Build or buy a gunnery droid

So the question is do you want your players using their own 3 agi and suddenly rolling 2 yellows and a green in space combat instead of 3 greens

or do you want them to easily build a non restricted droid with agi 3 and 5 ranks in gunnery and adversary 3

Even an experienced gunnery character with 5 gunnery and 5 agi is only going to be rolling 1 additional yellow die as a result of ata.

Plenty of pieces of equipment/mods upgrade specific skills this is as intended. A top crafted mechanics tool gives you a success an advantage and upgrades the mechanics check. A disruptor rifle effectively gives 5 ranks in the talent lethal blows, the strength enhancing mod for armor gives 1 brawn and 2 ranks in athletics giving you at least an extra yellow and green die.

It's just part of the game that good gear makes you better, you are tinkering with something at the core of the game here.

Imagine if a Holocron (or whatever) existed that passively upgraded the Lightsaber ability of all of the PCs twice and offered a few innate talent upgrades as icing.

Imagine if a Holocron (or whatever) existed that passively upgraded the Lightsaber ability of all of the PCs twice and offered a few innate talent upgrades as icing.

Let's hope nobody builds a planetary-scale lightsaber.

Imagine if a Holocron (or whatever) existed that passively upgraded the Lightsaber ability of all of the PCs twice and offered a few innate talent upgrades as icing.

Given that the benefits of Jedi Holocrons can vary wildly from one Holocron to the next, that isn't really all that improbable. The two free Career skills is only one benefit a Holocron can have, which is why they're Quest Items , not something you can just buy. However, as Amrothe said, there are numerous pieces of normal equipment which do give bonuses and innate talent upgrades just as the ATA does.

powerful holocrons are actually something that exists in my "recovering lost force lore and artifacts based campaign"

One of the holocrons in fact not only gave the entire group access to the lightsaber and athletics skill it also gave each player a rank in parry and reflect as well as acting as capacity to teach battle meditation base power at a discount.

Now this powerful weaponmaster holocron was the culmination of our groups first questline, but stuff like this is not unbalancing

I would focus more on worrying that players in your group feel balanced and useful between eachother. You can always control the bad guys make them tougher to keep scenes interesting, but if one player gets left behind or gets left out then you have a real problem.

One of the issues with starship/vehicle combat is that it is very much "rocket tag" where hits are often easy and it doesn't usually take too much to wipe out an equivalent opponent, so shooting first is the winning strategy.

Because of this, something that increases the effectiveness of every offensive weapon on the ship pushes things even more in favor of offense and playing rocket tag isn't really that fun to throw, and it's even less fun to catch it.

One of the issues with starship/vehicle combat is that it is very much "rocket tag" where hits are often easy and it doesn't usually take too much to wipe out an equivalent opponent, so shooting first is the winning strategy.

For what it is worth, I think that maybe were the problem and solution may lie. There has been numerous posts about space combat. My own proclivity on this exact issue of space combat can easily be found on this forum.

It is entirely possible that if a solution to you and your groups satisfaction can be found for this issue, that the concern for ATA could be remedied.

Rewriting starship/vehicle combat in total is beyond the level of effort that I wish to expend. However, the ATA is something that can strongly skew things even further into a rocket tag race, so adjusting it is a start.

I do agree with one of the earlier posters that a key issue with the ATA is that it applies to every weapon on the starship/vehicle. If only one occupant could utilize the bonus on a given turn, then I probably wouldn't have any issue with the ATA. As is, the more guns the unit has, the more effective this attachment becomes at no added cost. Considering that, using the Special Modifications prices for labor, an ATA with all the Mods costs 19,000 credits and is a drop in the bucket when compared to the price of almost any capital ship. There is no good reason that every ISD, VSD, MC80, and many other ships with hard points shouldn't have a fully dressed ATA. And then it just becomes a must-have tax on the hard point capacity.

Question: Normal ATA increase gunnery once. You can just install it.

Everything after is a modification, you have to roll for, and if it´s fail, may not be upgradable anymore or unusable.

Maybe the power creep is elsewhere (that you can easily modify the ATA or throw enough money at it)?

Changes (few already mentioned):

A) Make them choose personal skill (for true aim) or the ATA. --> Would allow "bad" characters to contribute, and specialized chars can use there own, better skills.

B) Instead of upgrading, allow for downgrading the difficulty, you may not hit alot better, but less very bad stuff happens, keep the boosts.

( I guess you´ll like that idea ;-) )

C) Only allow the basic ATA (or with snipershot).

The rules now allow you to throw money to buy Mod installations.

Not having it stack with the talents of the user goes against the general Mod rules where Innate Talent Mods add to any ranks of the talents the user already possesses.

You can solve the stacking problem with True Aim by saying that the modification for the ATA gives you one rank of True Aim if you don’t already have one.

Same with the Sniper Shot talent (if you want to allow that at all).

As for the other upgrades, I think you’ve already decided that you’re going to replace them with downgrading the difficulty. If downgrading the difficulty would remove purple dice if there are no red dice to downgrade, then I’d agree that would be an improvement.

As it is, it’s your game, and the fact that I would run my game differently does not make your choices any less valid than mine.