6 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:You had a rough pod man. I wouldn't take it to heart if I were you.
Thanks, man. I take it in stride. It's nice hearing someone else say it though.
Honestly, I got a lot of information on wave 5 from the WC, so even though I have scars, I should be stronger come worlds. Thanks again to Biggs for putting on a great tourney.
Hype-bump.
Only 1 game left now.
3rd and 4th place?
23 minutes ago, Aresius said:3rd and 4th place?
Sounds like a great idea to me!
Preferably can we have 5 days notice once you two have organised your game pls JJ and GK.
15 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:Preferably can we have 5 days notice once you two have organised your game pls JJ and GK.
Should be no problem.
Biggs probably wants to write something too.
So maybe sometime next week.
FINALS date has been set:
March 9th, 6:30 pm (GMT)
That's 12:30 US Central (JJ) and 7:30 pm CET (GK)
Matchup of the (next) week: WC 2017 Final
GK vs JJ, Vader vs Jerry, Imp on Imp
Green Knight - Return of the Vader, WC 2017
Points: 395/400
[ flagship ] Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Darth Vader
( 36
points)
- Avenger
( 5
points)
- Agent Kallus
( 3
points)
- Gunnery Team
( 7
points)
- Quad Laser Turrets
( 5
points)
- Electronic Countermeasures
( 7
points)
- X17 Turbolasers
( 6
points)
= 189 total ship cost
Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Demolisher
( 10
points)
- Skilled First Officer
( 1
points)
- Ordnance Experts
( 4
points)
- Engine Techs
( 8
points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes
( 5
points)
= 90 total ship cost
Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Instigator
( 4
points)
- Ordnance Experts
( 4
points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes
( 5
points)
= 57 total ship cost
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Suppressor
( 4
points)
- Comms Net
( 2
points)
= 29 total ship cost
1
Ciena Ree ( 17 points)
1
Valen Rudor ( 13 points)
An Imperial fleet, with Darth Vader commanding (didn't this guy get the memo that Vader is a bad commander?) an ISD-2 packed with upgrades (large ships are not tournament viable, are they?). A tooled out, but "light", Demolisher is the hammer to the ISD anvil. The Raider provides some anti-squad tech with Insitgator, which remaining a considerable anti-ship threat due to redundant rerolls and APT (but Raiders are crap, aren't they?). GK's squad complement is ridiculous; you can't bring just 2 squads into the current meta. It simply can't be done. Four activations and just 5 drops - that's practically suicide. Basically GK's list is trash. It's also incredibly Old Skool; only the squads are from w5/CC. Hate to break it to you man, but that's the facts...
JJs Juggernaut - Random Last Minute Stuff: 394/400
Imperial I-class Star Destroyer (110)
- Minister Tua (2)
- Electronic Countermeasures (7)
- Leading Shots (4)
- XI7 Turbolasers (6)
Total: 129
Gladiator II-class Star Destroyer (62)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
- Demolisher (10)
Total: 81
Raider I-class corvette (44)
- Agent Kallus (3)
- Ordnance Experts (4)
- Flechette Torpedoes (3)
- Impetuous (4)
Total: 58
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23)
- Moff Jerjerrod (23)
Total: 46
Lambda-class Shuttle (15)
"Mauler'' Mithel (15)
Black Squadron (9)
Captain Jonus (16)
JumpMaster 5000 (12)
Tempest Squadron (13)
This Imperial fleet matches GK's ship for ship, but with less emphasis on upgrades and a cheaper admiral, JJ has room for more squadron tech. Key points here is the firepower of the ISD-1, coupled with the agility Jerry offers and the staying power provided by Tua. Demo might be without ET and the Raider is tooled for anti-squad, but don't be fooled - both can still dish out considerable damage. Jonus is there to provide those key accuracies for the ISD, and the rest of his squads are enablers for Jonus or anti-squad tech. The list has many of the shortcomings of GK's list; large ship, raider, etc., but at least it has some anti-squad tech and more drops. Overall a more flexible and "modern" list, but it still has no right to be in the final. I guess it comes down to JJ's skills. He IS the Champ after all.
Matchup:
At 394 to GK's 395, JJ has the choice of 1st or 2nd.
1st seems an obvious choice, cuz first is always better, no?
On the other hand GK has mostly been 2nd player in the WC - and proven that it's no disadvantage (in his POD he went 10-1 twice, both times as 2nd player). JJ will probably want 1st anyway, but he needs to take 4 ships vs 4 ships into account. His ISD is the only ship that can close to range of Avenger/Demo and NOT be horribly punished by GK's last activation. There is also Suppressor, which causes all sorts of trouble for ships moving too close.
JJ also needs to keep in mind that this is an elimination match. A single point of MoV is enough to win. Or 0 MoV for 2nd player. So if he wants to go down that route he can pick 2nd player, knowing GK must come to him or lose. And knowing JJ he probably has track of bonus points from his objectives and the relative costs of his ships/squads to GK's. So maybe 1st/2nd isn't so clear cut after all.
---
JJ is running a powerful ISD-1 with Tua ECMs. This means he'll probably want to close the gap with GK's long-range ISD-2 as quickly as possible once the shooting begins. He'll want to use Jerry's superior maneuverability to dodge Avenger's main arc, then set himself up in a superior position. Vader will have to enable those reds - and maneuver to keep JJ's ISD in its sights once the range closes. Since JJ has time and again demonstrated his skills of maneuver, further augmented by Jerry, this could be what closes the deal so to speak. GK knows how to move his ships too, but can he compensate for Jerry?
GK's Demo is stronger than JJ's - it has ET and redundant rerolls with Vader. That redundancy must not be underestimated - it's what can turn average or poor initial damage into some crazy damage spikes. JJ needs to take this into account; he's good at maneuvers, but can he completely avoid Demo AND close with GK's fleet? Not likely. GK's Raider is equally more potent - Vader rerolls on top of OE, plus APTs.
JJ should be able to deal with GK's squads, but need to be careful as GK's fleet has a lot of ship-based AS: ISD, Demo, and Raider. Tempest and Black will melt away it they get close to that ISD, but all the ace squads are in danger really. Still, JJ should be able to come out on top of the squad game and enable Jonus.
Key points will be: early squad game, early positioning, Jonus enabling, ISD/Demo mid-late game attack runs. JJ has Jerry working for him, Gk has Vader, making every shot taken hurt all that much more.
Prediction: JJ wins. It will be a tough one, but he'll still come out on top. So sorry GK, but take your trash fleet and go home.
@BiggsIRL feel free to add to or disregard, as you please.
Edited by Green KnightLove the write up guys! I actually hadn't look at GKs fleet in a while, so I was a little surprised on how close it came to my own fleet! While some people may look at the fleets and say they aren't "good," they also aren't bad either. They have synergies, a lot of firepower, an mine has a decent way of handling squadrons. Also, the format of this tournament does make it easier for lists that might not win big as often to make it farther, which I think is wonderful! It brings a lot of diversity.
As for strategy, well...I have a week to decide! I'll keep my decision close to my chest though.
9 hours ago, JJs Juggernaut said:Love the write up guys! I actually hadn't look at GKs fleet in a while, so I was a little surprised on how close it came to my own fleet! While some people may look at the fleets and say they aren't "good," they also aren't bad either. They have synergies, a lot of firepower, an mine has a decent way of handling squadrons. Also, the format of this tournament does make it easier for lists that might not win big as often to make it farther, which I think is wonderful! It brings a lot of diversity.
As for strategy, well...I have a week to decide! I'll keep my decision close to my chest though.
And here I was hoping you'd spill the beans and reveal all your plans. Bummer
As for similar lists...a lot of Bothans died. That's all I want to say
NEVER bet against the Empire!
On 3.3.2017 at 1:06 PM, Green Knight said:[...] GK's squad complement is ridiculous; you can't bring just 2 squads into the current meta. It simply can't be done. Four activations and just 5 drops - that's practically suicide. Basically GK's list is trash. It's also incredibly Old Skool; only the squads are from w5/CC. Hate to break it to you man, but that's the facts...
[JJ's] list has many of the shortcomings of GK's list; large ship, raider, etc.,
[...]
After reading your excellent write up, I was astonished that those two outlier lists (especially yours) were able to reach the finals. However, then I took a closer look at all the starting PODs and my astonishment melted and made place for another astonishment. Let us take the following 4 elements:
- Yavaris
- 5 activations
- Bomber Command Center
- Bomber swarm
They might be too narrow to call them the current predominant fleet composition strategy (aka meta). After all, neither the worldchampionship finals lists nor the finals lists from the last big Vassal tournament met them (well, Gowtah's did). However, to have at least 3 of these 4 cornerstones seems to me to be quite a good description of what is very strong in the current so called meta. Guess what? Not onesingle list of this tournament meets all four elements. What about 3 out of 4? Merely twice! (Brobafett and Itzsteve). So merely 2 of 32 players were close to this fleet archetype. Hence, maybe it is not at all so suprising that that two outlier lists come to the finals of this tournament. This whole tournament is a disturbing outlier!
1 hour ago, Darth Veggie said:After reading your excellent write up, I was astonished that those two outlier lists (especially yours) were able to reach the finals. However, then I took a closer look at all the starting PODs and my astonishment melted and made place for another astonishment. Let us take the following 4 elements:
- Yavaris
- 5 activations
- Bomber Command Center
- Bomber swarm
They might be too narrow to call them the current predominant fleet composition strategy (aka meta). After all, neither the worldchampionship finals lists nor the finals lists from the last big Vassal tournament met them (well, Gowtah's did). However, to have at least 3 of these 4 cornerstones seems to me to be quite a good description of what is very strong in the current so called meta. Guess what? Not onesingle list of this tournament meets all four elements. What about 3 out of 4? Merely twice! (Brobafett and Itzsteve). So merely 2 of 32 players were close to this fleet archetype. Hence, maybe it is not at all so suprising that that two outlier lists come to the finals of this tournament. This whole tournament is a disturbing outlier!
In my POD there were 2 bomber lists (1 rebel bombers swarm, 1 imp defender swarm), and one MSU. During elimination rounds I met another MSU (rebel MC swarm), an Imp MSU w/Rhymerball, and Ackbar conga with Rogues.
POD PLAY
Lord Preyer - So Vader, IG and Maarek walk into a bar...
Points: 384/400
Imperial II-Class Star Destroyer (120 points)
- Relentless
( 3
points)
- Intel Officer
( 7
points)
- Gunnery Team
( 7
points)
- Boosted Comms
( 4
points)
- Electronic Countermeasures
( 7
points)
- X17 Turbolasers
( 6
points)
- Leading Shots
( 4
points)
= 158 total ship cost
Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)
- Intel Officer
( 7
points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets
( 5
points)
= 66 total ship cost
[ flagship ] Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Admiral Motti
( 24
points)
- Comms Net
( 2
points)
= 49 total ship cost
3
TIE Defender Squadrons ( 48 points)
1
Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
1
Darth Vader ( 21 points)
1
IG-88 ( 21 points)
1st match. I was 2nd player. This list has a good fighter wing, capable of both AS and blowing up ships. It also has amazing speed on those squads, and with first player can cover a LOT of ground. But without Relay and Boosted Comms it's a bit limited in how large an area the squads can cover. I held off the fighters long enough for me to flank his three activations on both sides, while also harvesting the Outpost. In the event it became a 10-1, but even if LordPreyer had been able to take down more of my small ships, he could not really burn down the ISD or prevent me from gaining lots of CO pts.
Green Squadron 3 - Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400
Assault Frigate Mark II B (72 points)
- Gallant Haven
( 8
points)
- Flight Commander
( 3
points)
- Flight Controllers
( 6
points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay
( 5
points)
- Electronic Countermeasures
( 7
points)
- X17 Turbolasers
( 6
points)
= 107 total ship cost
Modified Pelta-class Command Ship (60 points)
- Raymus Antilles
( 7
points)
- Boosted Comms
( 4
points)
- All Fighters, Follow Me!
( 5
points)
= 76 total ship cost
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Bright Hope
( 2
points)
- Toryn Farr
( 7
points)
- Boosted Comms
( 4
points)
- Bomber Command Center
( 8
points)
= 39 total ship cost
[ flagship ] GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Garm Bel Iblis
( 25
points)
- Quantum Storm
( 1
points)
- Leia Organa
( 3
points)
- Comms Net
( 2
points)
= 49 total ship cost
1
Luke Skywalker ( 20 points)
1
Wedge Antilles ( 19 points)
2
X-Wing Squadrons ( 26 points)
1
Norra Wexley ( 17 points)
1
"Dutch" Vander ( 16 points)
1
Gold Squadron ( 12 points)
1
Jan Ors ( 19 points)
2nd mach. I was 1st player. No Yavaris, but a potent Rebel bomber swarm. This was a tough nut to crack, but I was able to create three avenues of threat/attack, and the bombers couldn't defend against all three. I lost Demo and a Raider, I think, and he avoided tabling by admiral's lifeboat. A very tough matchup.
Miedomeda - Fleet List
Total Points: 389 / 400
Arquitens-class Light Cruiser (54 points)
- Hand of Justice
( 4
points)
- Captain Needa
( 2
points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits
( 7
points)
= 67 total ship cost
Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Impetuous
( 4
points)
- Agent Kallus
( 3
points)
- Ordnance Experts
( 4
points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes
( 5
points)
= 60 total ship cost
Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher
( 10
points)
- Skilled First Officer
( 1
points)
- Ordnance Experts
( 4
points)
- Engine Techs
( 8
points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes
( 5
points)
= 84 total ship cost
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Slicer Tools
( 7
points)
= 30 total ship cost
[ flagship ] Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Admiral Ozzel
( 20
points)
= 43 total ship cost
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net
( 2
points)
= 25 total ship cost
1
Valen Rudor ( 13 points)
1
"Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
1
"Howlrunner" ( 16 points)
1
Dengar ( 20 points)
2
TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 16 points)
3rd match, I was 2nd player. A replay of the 1st match really, except Miedo had no bomber wing, but enough activations to play the activation game. He kind of made things difficult for himself during the setup, helping me create a funnel towards the station where his ships more or less had to fly into my guns. Plus redundant rerolls are brutal vs smaller ships. As can be seen from the elimination rounds miedo did quite well in his other matches.
Don't misunderstand my post. I didn't want to say that it is no achievement to be in the finals of this tournament. Quite contrary. There are a lot of players in this tournament I consider to be top notch! And I am **** sure I couldn't achieve it - by far -, even if I had tried it. My point is that the finals are so anti-meta, because the entire tournament is so anti-meta (at least, if you buy my completelly arbirtrary 3 out of 4 cri´teria).
ELIMINATION ROUNDS
Ardaedhel - MM Shrimps
Total: 395/400
MC30c Frigate: MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 26)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
+ Admonition (8)
MC30c Frigate: MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 13)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
MC30c Frigate: MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 10)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
MC30c Frigate: MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 10)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
Rebel Transports: GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 30)
+ Mon Mothma (30)
Rebel Transports: GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
Rebel Transports: GR-75 Medium Transports (18)
We tossed a die, Ard picked 1st player. I knew I was in trouble, big trouble. He set up and started moving with great precision. I was on the back foot. His Admo made a run for my Raider and my MW Goz...and it came down to dice, pretty much. Even with OE and H9 he managed to kill neither ship. Then I got lucky with my Demo and killed an MC30. Long story the MCs couldn't get back into the fight and I won by a slim margin. Not what I expected; I think 9 times out of 10 I'd lose if Ard got 1st player.
mhd - Double Crutch
Points: 393/400
Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 53 total ship cost
Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 53 total ship cost
[ flagship ] Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)
= 43 total ship cost
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
= 23 total ship cost
Gladiator II-Class Star Destroyer (62 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Engine Techs ( 8 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)
= 92 total ship cost
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
1 Colonel Jendon ( 20 points)
1 Darth Vader ( 21 points)
1 Tempest Squadron ( 13 points)
1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
2 TIE Bomber Squadrons ( 18 points)
1 Maarek Steele ( 21 points)
Mhd made me 1st player and we did Blockade Run. I started with a huge brainfart, which led to me offering to concede (read about it elsewhere - it's super-embarrassing), but Mhd offered to replay instead. He's the first opponent to make an attempt to crack at my ISD. It nearly died, but Instigator jumped in late game to tie down remaining squads and it got away with a couple of hull. Again, between my 2 squads, AS fire from ships - and Instigator, I somehow manage to scrape through the squad fight.
I was 2nd player - again. Matt opted not to fight and instead snipe my squads, so I pretty much had to keep my speed down and keep out of engagement. You can't tail-chase into 3 overlapping Ackbar broadsides. Not the ISD and definitely not my 3 small ships. I was a bit careless with Valen, which almost cost me the game. But Ciena stuck around for a long while, doing a lot of Counter damage. Then As from ships - and Instigator - helped swing the MoV in my favor.
---
That pretty much sums up my experiences thus far. Lots of different archetypes, most of them with strong squads, including bombers.
I felt I had good control during POD play - not that my list was all that much stronger, but my opponents didn't neccessarily get the most out of their lists (lack of play experience with said lists?).
Then I expected to lose to Ard when he got 1st player.
Then the brainfart vs. Mhd.
Then I expected to meet Gink's ram-spam, but he got squished by Matt.
Then I was very afraid of Matt just rushing me on 2 flanks with squadron support, but that didn't happen.
So a bit of skill, a bit of luck, and a bit of coincidence really.
3 minutes ago, Darth Veggie said:Don't misunderstand my post. I didn't want to say that it is no achievement to be in the finals of this tournament. Quite contrary. There are a lot of players in this tournament I consider to be top notch! And I am **** sure I couldn't achieve it - by far -, even if I had tried it. My point is that the finals are so anti-meta, because the entire tournament is so anti-meta (at least, if you buy my completelly arbirtrary 3 out of 4 cri´teria).
Don't worry. I quite understood your post. It just made me think for a bit, that's all. Made me reflect on the types of opposing lists I've met.
1 hour ago, Darth Veggie said:After reading your excellent write up, I was astonished that those two outlier lists (especially yours) were able to reach the finals. However, then I took a closer look at all the starting PODs and my astonishment melted and made place for another astonishment. Let us take the following 4 elements:
- Yavaris
- 5 activations
- Bomber Command Center
- Bomber swarm
They might be too narrow to call them the current predominant fleet composition strategy (aka meta). After all, neither the worldchampionship finals lists nor the finals lists from the last big Vassal tournament met them (well, Gowtah's did). However, to have at least 3 of these 4 cornerstones seems to me to be quite a good description of what is very strong in the current so called meta. Guess what? Not onesingle list of this tournament meets all four elements. What about 3 out of 4? Merely twice! (Brobafett and Itzsteve). So merely 2 of 32 players were close to this fleet archetype. Hence, maybe it is not at all so suprising that that two outlier lists come to the finals of this tournament. This whole tournament is a disturbing outlier!
Slightly confused by this, as 3 of the top 4 lists at Worlds met 3 of your elements, and 2 out of the 4 met all 4 of your elements, one of which was in the finals
It would be cool if JJ had some reflections as well, either now or after the final.
I watched some of his replays, and there was a whole lot of Sensor Net going down, with ships moving in every direction except the usual one (that being towards the fight).
1 minute ago, JJs Juggernaut said:Slightly confused by this, as 3 of the top 4 lists at Worlds met 3 of your elements, and 2 out of the 4 met all 4 of your elements, one of which was in the finals
Oh, you are right. Your opponent in the final game met all four. Forgot this one. Seems the criteria are better than I thought ;-)
13 minutes ago, Green Knight said:It would be cool if JJ had some reflections as well, either now or after the final.
I watched some of his replays, and there was a whole lot of Sensor Net going down, with ships moving in every direction except the usual one (that being towards the fight).
Haha...
(if only the character's hadn't been as drab as the interior of the Enterprise)
1 minute ago, Green Knight said:Haha...
(if only the character's hadn't been as drab as the interior of the Enterprise)
Ouch! I liked enterprise, then again I like all things Star Trek and Star Wars, and Sci-Fi in general...
As for actual thoughts. My list turned out to be a little better than I thought it would be. When I made the list, I liked it on paper. It seemed to be nicely rounded. Big ship, Demo, and anti-squadron tools. After all the fleets were posted though I was quite worried. There were a few fleets I didn't think I'd be able to beat (Gink and Ard namely). Luckily I didn't have to find out. I was torn with my 6 point bid, and my concerns were justified as I believe 2 of my 3 pod opponents outbid me. I was able play keep away from HERO, since I was heavily outgunned, and without first player it was near suicidal to attack. Against MHD we had a tough squadron fight, but I was able to snag his Demo and most of the squads, though I think I lost most of mine too. ItzSteve was the only game I had first player. Here the Kallus raider paid off with the flechettes. It shutdown the Rieekan aces, and then the game was all but over.
Eliminations are a whole other beast! Maturin decided to try and keep away from me and score objective points, but I was able to catch up to him so his risk didn't pay off. Against Miedomeda we circled each other, even keeping our squadrons from fighting. However I was able to pin down a raider and two flotillas with Jonus + Demo. With my ISD soaking his only Demo salvo (which whiffed horrifically) The swinging of the activation advantage meant a win for me. Vs Aresius I had a choice to make. Try and fight his MC80, or go for the flotillas and squadrons. I had first player, which was my saving grace. Without first player, that game would have been very hard pressed to win. Based on deployment I went for squads and flotillas, though I still wonder if I could have taken down the MC80 if I had tried for it right away.
And now I get to face GK, who is running an astonishingly similar list! Mine is more of an all rounder, which in a tournament where multiple big wins aren't as important, gives it a fair shot. While my fleet doesn't have the most firepower out there, it was able to score big off of objectives throughout the tournament; namely a lot of Sensor Net games. I'm excited to see how this final game goes! I may be outgunned, but we'll see how all the other factors come together!
2 minutes ago, JJs Juggernaut said:And now I get to face GK, who is running an astonishingly similar list! Mine is more of an all rounder, which in a tournament where multiple big wins aren't as important, gives it a fair shot. While my fleet doesn't have the most firepower out there, it was able to score big off of objectives throughout the tournament; namely a lot of Sensor Net games. I'm excited to see how this final game goes! I may be outgunned, but we'll see how all the other factors come together!
See, it's those "other factors" I don't care for! Vader just wants a
straight up
gunnery duel (and not the Advanced Gunnery kind)!
I would say my fleet was very much meta....