Truth be told, I am looking forward to this:

SHIP: Imperial I-class Star Destroyer 110

Flight Commander 3

Rapid Launch Bays 6

Expanded Hangar Bay 5

Total Points: 124

SHIP: Gozanti-class Cruisers 23

Bomber Command Center 8

SHIP: Major Rhymer TIE Bomber Squadron 16

SHIP: TIE Bomber Squadron 9

SHIP: TIE Bomber Squadron 9

SHIP: TIE Bomber Squadron 9

SHIP: TIE Bomber Squadron 9

This way I can run up, and launch a 5 black die alpha at nearly red range, with rerolls. Spice up the ISD further to taste.

You guys just gotta appreciate the ship for what it does and what it can do rather than what it can't.

Die heinously to 2/3 the points without ever getting a chance to shoot?

everything can die without getting a chance to shoot. it doesnt mean the choice isnt competitive. it is called "tactics".

in boxing the most efficient coward wins (see "stick and move" strategy that everybody now uses as its unbeatable)

in cagefighting the best "gameplanner" usualy wins.

...and in armada, the most clever use of your units will rob the opponent the chance to strike back.

welcome to real life, where boring-yet-efficient tactics usualy work best, and where brute force loses to brains, and where neaderdhal were slaughtered by less powerful, more intelligent humans. in other news, water is wet.

your problem is not large ships or flotillas. it is the idea that building a list around brute force without support elements can and/or should work. it doesnt work and it shouldnt work. this is a wargame, not an arm wrestling competition.

EDIT: i am sorry and i will try to answer more politely. i just feel scared by the idea of countless people ranting trying to make the game more shallow. I TRY TO HELP and offer examples, and all i get from 70% of flotilla/squadron-hater people, is answers in the spirit of "bu-but my all-star destroyers list! why oh why should i make combos and monitor meta and use tactics all i wanna do is rush forward and smash!" it makes me feel scared that ffg would listen to that line of thought sorry if i offend anyone.

You guys just gotta appreciate the ship for what it does and what it can do rather than what it can't.

Die heinously to 2/3 the points without ever getting a chance to shoot?

everything can die without getting a chance to shoot. it doesnt mean the choice isnt competitive. it is called "tactics".

boxing means the most efficient coward wins (see "stick and move" strategy that everybody now uses as its unbeatable)

in cagefighting the best "gameplanner" usualy wins.

...and in armada, the most clever use of your units will rob the opponent the chance to strike back.

welcome to real life, where boring-yet-efficient tactics usualy work best, and where brute force loses to brains, and where neaderdhal wre slaughtered by less powrful, more intelligent humans. in other news, water is wet.

Welcome to real life? Are you kidding me!?!

We're playing with little plastic spaceships!!!!!

All we're asking is our little plastic spaceships be as enjoyable to play with as your little plastic spaceships!!!!

Not because this is some life or death, gritty, life is pain experience. But because it's a game dude! Everyone wants to have FUN and right now, a common complaint is that the large based plastic spaceships, are not as enjoyable as their smaller cousins.

You guys just gotta appreciate the ship for what it does and what it can do rather than what it can't.

Die heinously to 2/3 the points without ever getting a chance to shoot?

everything can die without getting a chance to shoot. it doesnt mean the choice isnt competitive. it is called "tactics".

boxing means the most efficient coward wins (see "stick and move" strategy that everybody now uses as its unbeatable)

in cagefighting the best "gameplanner" usualy wins.

...and in armada, the most clever use of your units will rob the opponent the chance to strike back.

welcome to real life, where boring-yet-efficient tactics usualy work best, and where brute force loses to brains, and where neaderdhal wre slaughtered by less powrful, more intelligent humans. in other news, water is wet.

Welcome to real life? Are you kidding me!?!

We're playing with little plastic spaceships!!!!!

All we're asking is our little plastic spaceships be as enjoyable to play with as your little plastic spaceships!!!!

Not because this is some life or death, gritty, life is pain experience. But because it's a game dude! Everyone wants to have FUN and right now, a common complaint is that the large based plastic spaceships, are not as enjoyable as their smaller cousins.

but this complaint is not true. we have all offered evidence and examples of how lists that utilise large based ships can work (provided you use other options to support them, beef up activations, handle squadrons, etc).

why doesnt a list with 1 x ISD (150 pts), 1 x kitted out raider (60 pts), 2 x flotillas (2 x 30 pts), 1 x admiral and 100-ish points of squadrons work? its awesome in this meta, why doesnt the mass bomber carrier that you yourself suggested work?

fleets with large ships work. and the evidence is right there 5% less usage AT MOST this year. fleets without small ships don't work. there is a difference.

I feel there is a culprit in all this...

GR-75 and its 2 squadron activations.

Cheaper then the imperial flotilla and more effective cards to support it.

The imperials really needed the flotilla to be more competetive.

But they got the sucky version...

Which is rediculous considering these things are advertised in game and lore as carriers.

Why is a refitted rusty transport ship better?

This in my opinion is what skewed the game, one wrong release is all it takes.

Relay 2 has corrected this.

On the contrary, I actually think the ISDs are having the time of their lives right now; at least the II because of the 4 natural blues they can throw out at medium range, Gunnery Teams and Kallus.

I'm literally 50/50 right now on bringing either ISD-II or my squid cigar to Regionals this year.

IMO, the ISD-II is much more effective now than ever before, because it can severely damage squadrons, flotillas and capital ships much more than in the past. Think about the Wave 2 meta, where you might be slugging it out with bigger ships and limited targets on the field to shoot at. Now, your target meta is medium-sized ships that are weak vs. accuracies and you can potentially one-shot and kill 2 of them per turn, severely cripple or maim a lone capital ship, or spray down an entire field of squadrons with 2 blues/Kallus/Leading Shots, OR preform any combination of the three because you have Gunnery Teams.

It's a good time to be an ISD, just letting you know. The 4 natural squadron and plentiful upgrade slots also allows you to dual-up as a carrier. There's just no other ship like it in the game yet; and that's a very good thing. You guys just gotta appreciate the ship for what it does and what it can do rather than what it can't.

"But Madaghmire, if my opponent is using a 120 point ship to blow up my 18 point ship, isnt that a win for me?" asks little Jimmy.

No Jimmy, you ignorant ****. If your opponent is blowing up your ships you are not winning. Flotillas are cheap sure, but we being them because of the tactical options they provide, and if they blow up we lose those options. Because its dead, Jim. Plus, if they were running gunnery teams like just about every single ISD-2 ever made, its not even like they sac'd a higher prioirty shot to do so. And if they did, stop leaving three ships in your opponents ISD's front arc. Thats a bad Jimmy.

Tl;dr ISD's are fine.

So much floatilla talk and so little capt jonus appreciation

So much floatilla talk and so little capt jonus appreciation

Sssshh......

The first post is dead on, Star Wars isn't about "just" Capital Ships or Squadrons, it is a mix of both. And those that say Large ships are bad Miss the point completely. The Large Ships are good and always have been, and the only real weakness in them is their weakness against Squadrons. (ISD is the Rock and Squadrons are the Paper.) And Intel is a pain, as it was meant to be and that means you have to counter them so your squadrons are effective at screening. That means you have to bring a balanced list instead of the One-Trick-Pony's that casual players love.

This is not X-Wing and it is very complex in nature, it's not really good at supporting a lazy approach. If someone brought just a Squadron Heavy list without thought on how to protect their Carrier they will Lose hard because Squadrons are nothing without Capitals. So the Copitals need to be there.

Now if you can get your ISD to front arc their carriers you win. (Your rock crushes their scissors) This game is not and never has been advertised as an "ISD rules everyone" sort of game. It's as I said more complex and ISD's are super powerful against all other capitals still. So figure out a more balanced list and adapt. Like any Commander or Chess player you have to adapt to the battle or game, you can't expect them to conform to you.

Stop looking at everything separately in a vacuum and the game's true beauty emerges.

ISDs can win battles on their own, but that is against bigger ships. If you look at the movies, they are always beat by Rebel Starfighters, not Rebel ships. There is a reason they carry hordes of TIE Fighters.

I feel like this describes how I feel about the issue:

http://dockingbay416.com/ideas-to-fix-the-squadron-problem-in-star-wars-armada/

I feel like this describes how I feel about the issue:

http://dockingbay416.com/ideas-to-fix-the-squadron-problem-in-star-wars-armada/

Well that's R2EQ for you, theme trumps all! He was complaining about how the Soviets should be able to crush the Germans single handed last time I played Axis and Allies with him. Also like to add that he wrote this article prior to wave 2 official release, when squadrons 'appeared' to be under powered. He also wrote an article about how he kicked my ass in Rebellion, the Rebel base was on Hoth the whole time, that I should have seen coming.

I feel like this describes how I feel about the issue:

http://dockingbay416.com/ideas-to-fix-the-squadron-problem-in-star-wars-armada/

Wow, it's a blast from the past with some wave 2 brand squadrons salty salty tears.

I feel like this describes how I feel about the issue:

http://dockingbay416.com/ideas-to-fix-the-squadron-problem-in-star-wars-armada/

well, sideshow...

i understand you are a theme player. that is nice and has its place. now i ask you to also understand something else:

armada is a wargame.

if armada was true to theme, Imperial fleets would have 2000 points+, and rebels would get like 200 points.

the fact that it is a wargame and not a tabletop game means you have to admit some stuff.

Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker cannot force-push starfighters. and they cannot dock in your capital ships, board them and cut down the crew. why? because that ability of theirs is not the spotlight.

i also love the star wars theme. that is why i also play Rebellionand GM a star wars rpg. but tabletop game =/= wargame. as a wargamer that happens to also be a massive star wars fan, i am glad to have not only RPGs and tabletop games, but also WARGAMES, to mix my wargamer passion with my star wars passion. what's wrong with that, even if it means it has to sometimes be contrary to the theme?

Do you know what this reminds me of?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/234685-the-decline-of-large-ships/?hl=decline

But noooooooo I was wrong in my assessment a month ago. And look where we are now...

Do you know what this reminds me of?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/234685-the-decline-of-large-ships/?hl=decline

But noooooooo I was wrong in my assessment a month ago. And look where we are now...

Yeah, I know. That's what it felt like the OP was reacting against, since I think that thread got a few people thinking down a particular line of thought. So its not surprising that a few pages of posts would take us back around almost full circle to that discussion.

Do you know what this reminds me of?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/234685-the-decline-of-large-ships/?hl=decline

But noooooooo I was wrong in my assessment a month ago. And look where we are now...

Yeah, I know. That's what it felt like the OP was reacting against, since I think that thread got a few people thinking down a particular line of thought. So its not surprising that a few pages of posts would take us back around almost full circle to that discussion.

The forums are starting to feel like Facebook. Same stuff keeps popping up yet I expect something interesting every time I hop on. Sometimes there is, but lot of it turns out to be rehashed content and flame wars.

Not trying to diminish the thread here, but this train already ran its loop a month ago.

I'll admit I want to know how wave 5 will incorporate large ships in fleets. Squads are needed in nearly every list now, but large ships are not.

Well to be fair in the Star Wars stories Squadrons were in just about every space battle, and even many ground battles, but not every battle had ISD's. Movies showed the ISD's often but the other sources show us that most of the time other support vessels were used for smaller scale assignments because even the Empire had limited ISD's. But you can absolutely run a Large Ship in every list you wanted because nothing stops you. Which capitals you want to run is your own personal choice but which ship you bring does dictate what tools you have available.

Now the actual rules state you can run a list without any squadrons but you have to bring ships no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's a large ship or a small ship you need ships because they are the key to the game. If the game made the ISD the mother monster and it was mandatory to take them the game would suck for the Rebels and no one would buy the smaller ships. Every list would be 2 to 3 ISD's with some Squadron support. But today we see so many different builds and every ship is being used. That is actually a sign of a healthy game when every model is being used. (X-Wing could use that love but in truth some ships in X-Wing just out right suck and are avoided until there is a title card released to try a bring it back.)

Now let's look at what you said, why do you compare bringing large ships to squadrons? Shouldn't it be Ships to Squadrons? Why does the size of the ship matter in your comparison at all? I feel like you Love Love Love the ISD and want it to out shine every single other ship in the game. If it did it may very well match up to the Fluff but it would make a bad game. There needs to be balance and FFG wants to sell all their products not just their ISD's. And if the Large Shols were better than all the other sizes than someone else, a Rebel Player, would complain about why smaller ships were not more viable and that the game should change to fit their desires. But right now all the ships appear to be balanced but players are still learning to deal with the last release and are still adjusting their play style. In a few months we might see threads complaining that Squadrons are under powered because the meta learned to counter them. But we have to wait to see how the game unfolds and who knows what will come next wave? Maybe more ISD love? (I would personally love to see and expect to see Grand Admiral Thrawn after his appearance in Rebels and his new book coming up.)

Do you know what this reminds me of?

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/234685-the-decline-of-large-ships/?hl=decline

But noooooooo I was wrong in my assessment a month ago. And look where we are now...

Yeah, I know. That's what it felt like the OP was reacting against, since I think that thread got a few people thinking down a particular line of thought. So its not surprising that a few pages of posts would take us back around almost full circle to that discussion.

The forums are starting to feel like Facebook. Same stuff keeps popping up yet I expect something interesting every time I hop on. Sometimes there is, but lot of it turns out to be rehashed content and flame wars.

Not trying to diminish the thread here, but this train already ran its loop a month ago.

I'll admit I want to know how wave 5 will incorporate large ships in fleets. Squads are needed in nearly every list now, but large ships are not.

Oh, I agree on the nothing new train. That's why I've dread, but kept my own involvement at a minimum. I'm curious what percentage of lists people think should contain large ships. Given how many more small ships and squads we have, im content with the current percentages.

Oh, just a pet peeve I feel needs to be mentioned, Admiralts need to be mandated go on med or large based ships only... No flotilla hiding... That's not Star Wars!

Edit: sorry, wrong thread!

Floatillas are not quite qhat they were. Captain jonus makes it pretty easy to one shot a floatilla. Levels out the activation count pretty quick.

I find strategic keyword and the new objectives really help out the med/lrg ships.

I feel like this describes how I feel about the issue:

http://dockingbay416.com/ideas-to-fix-the-squadron-problem-in-star-wars-armada/

I think 'theme' players tend to ruin every game they touch and their suggestions are equally dumb.

Now let's look at what you said, why do you compare bringing large ships to squadrons? Shouldn't it be Ships to Squadrons? Why does the size of the ship matter in your comparison at all? I feel like you Love Love Love the ISD and want it to out shine every single other ship in the game. If it did it may very well match up to the Fluff but it would make a bad game. There needs to be balance and FFG wants to sell all their products not just their ISD's. And if the Large Shols were better than all the other sizes than someone else, a Rebel Player, would complain about why smaller ships were not more viable and that the game should change to fit their desires. But right now all the ships appear to be balanced but players are still learning to deal with the last release and are still adjusting their play style. In a few months we might see threads complaining that Squadrons are under powered because the meta learned to counter them. But we have to wait to see how the game unfolds and who knows what will come next wave? Maybe more ISD love? (I would personally love to see and expect to see Grand Admiral Thrawn after his appearance in Rebels and his new book coming up.)

I assume your comment is directed at me.

So.. I'll begin by saying I don't like the ISD. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of large ships. I hate the MC80 H1. I think it's horrible and I never play it. I like the Liberty though, but I feel clumsy when I fly it. Hard to find the correct load out that I feel happy with. I made a thread a while back about how I was stuck with always putting 2 turbolasers on it because it can hold 2. I can't seem to break from that.

The issue I see with large ships is they take up 1/4 of your fleet points. And then you need upgrades to protect your beat stick liability. If it dies, you will likely lose the match. I'd rather take 2-3 ships for the 150 points I'd spend on a large ship.

That's more activations, deployments, and probably more damage too when you consider double arcing, 1-3 damage instead of 6-8 pre-brace, and I can push squads for even more pain.

I don't think large ships are the issue. When flown well, they out perform anything we have. But flotillas allowed players to dive into MSU/carrier lists, which large ships suffer against. You can't Brace and Redirect multiple small attacks very well. And when you lose a ship, it rarely impacts the rest of the fleet or your play style. In fact, MSU lists have disposable ships like Raiders and flotillas flying into a swarm of squads.

Large ships do not need a buff. Rather, we need something that entices players to put them on the table. Tua and RBD are excellent examples of this. ISD-I and MC80s can have better defensive capabilities, but those 2 upgrades also work on other ships.

Floatillas also allow you to field large ships withput utterly shafting your activation count

I believe many of the new toys actually help take down Flotillas and Flotillas are only powerful now because of their newness. They were seen as just small weak ships for activations but now that their true abilities have been seen they will be hunted down first to limit activation and stop their fleet benefits. Then the game will be normalized once more.

Just my opinion but if you send more than one attack at Flotillas they fall down fast. Then you can focus on the bigger ships as their activations become more limited. Just like sinking tons of points into one ship is a liability (Totally think you have that part right Undeadguy) sinking most of your activations into Flotillas can also bite you back mid game. Everything still seems like a give and take for now. Have your Rogue bombers hit the Flotillas first before swinging in on the big ships. For the Flotillas to have a decent game affect they still need to be close to the rest of the fleet. Whether that's their Squadrons or Capitals.

For the Flotillas to have a decent game affect they still need to be close to the rest of the fleet. Whether that's their Squadrons or Capitals.

Relay. I've had fun throwing a Gozanti off away from the battlefield and relaying his 2 squadron command through a Shuttle. It still provides activation advantage. It's safe to activate at any point, since it's far from the battlefield, yet it's still commanding two squadrons a turn thanks to that Shuttle.