It's not removing it it's reassigning it. Yes you physically have to take it off of Manaroo to move it, but it's clear that it's the intent for Red and blue locks to move.

The rules on target lock removal written in the guide book are clearly there for cards like expert handling which tell you to remove an enemy target lock (and therefore for the opposing ship to remove its blue lock).

It's not removing it it's reassigning it. Yes you physically have to take it off of Manaroo to move it, but it's clear that it's the intent for Red and blue locks to move.

The rules on target lock removal written in the guide book are clearly there for cards like expert handling which tell you to remove an enemy target lock (and therefore for the opposing ship to remove its blue lock).

Then which is the effect that allows you to remove a blue target lock then reassign it to another ship (since that case is explicitly covered by the rules being discussed) ?

The rules reference specifically mentions 'removed from the ship,' so it doesn't matter where the token goes. It's removed from Manaroo; removed 'from the ship', not 'from the game'. The trick is that it does say something about tokens being reassigned to another ship, but that only goes for blue tokens. Maybe they did not consider red tokens being reassigned. The rules reference was written before the Manaroo card. I think the same should go for red tokens as for blue ones, but this is my interpretation. A rather obvious one if you ask me, but not RAW.

I agree that it is not entirely clear. Mainly because of the parentheses which suggests that to "remove" is the first part of "assign". But there are clearly arguments for the usual way of playing it too. Manaroo doesn't say "reassign" but to "assign all (...) tokens assigned to you". That means that a new red target lock token is assigned to the friendly ship, which means the enemy ship with the blue lock token acquires a new target lock on the ship that Manaroo assigns her tokens to, and therefore has to remove the target lock on Manaroo.

Another argument is to look at the difference between Manaroo and Colonel Jendon. Jendon allows you to

...assign one of your blue target lock tokens to a friendly ship...

you may assign all (...) target lock tokens assigned to you to another friendly ship.

That's the two reasons I can see for Manaroo to work the way we thinks. I consider the first to be better, but in any case I think it needs an FAQ.

It's not removing it it's reassigning it. Yes you physically have to take it off of Manaroo to move it, but it's clear that it's the intent for Red and blue locks to move.

The rules on target lock removal written in the guide book are clearly there for cards like expert handling which tell you to remove an enemy target lock (and therefore for the opposing ship to remove its blue lock).

Then which is the effect that allows you to remove a blue target lock then reassign it to another ship (since that case is explicitly covered by the rules being discussed) ?

The abilities for Manaroo and Jendon are both effects that allow you to reassign target lock tokens to another ship but there is no removal involved.

It's not removing it it's reassigning it. Yes you physically have to take it off of Manaroo to move it, but it's clear that it's the intent for Red and blue locks to move.

The rules on target lock removal written in the guide book are clearly there for cards like expert handling which tell you to remove an enemy target lock (and therefore for the opposing ship to remove its blue lock).

Then which is the effect that allows you to remove a blue target lock then reassign it to another ship (since that case is explicitly covered by the rules being discussed) ?

There isn't an effect like that that in the game as far as I know and I don't think that there could be. If you removed a target lock you wouldn't be able to reassign anything. You would be assigning a new target lock and the effect would need to assign both a red and a blue target lock to be useful. You may happen to use the same tokens for the target lock but it would be a different target lock. If you were reassigning a target lock, it is the same target lock that has been transfered between ships.

The abilities for Manaroo and Jendon are both effects that allow you to reassign target lock tokens to another ship but there is no removal involved.

You either accept that removing a TL means removing it from the ship it was on (including in order to assign it to another ship), or you accept that removing a TL means 'remove from play' and that FFG wrote a rule subcase that makes 0 sense (assigning a TL that no longer exists because it was removed from play).

Personally, I feel the former requires a smaller leap in logic than the latter.

It's not removing it it's reassigning it. Yes you physically have to take it off of Manaroo to move it, but it's clear that it's the intent for Red and blue locks to move.

The rules on target lock removal written in the guide book are clearly there for cards like expert handling which tell you to remove an enemy target lock (and therefore for the opposing ship to remove its blue lock).

Then which is the effect that allows you to remove a blue target lock then reassign it to another ship (since that case is explicitly covered by the rules being discussed) ?

There isn't an effect like that that in the game as far as I know and I don't think that there could be. If you removed a target lock you wouldn't be able to reassign anything. You would be assigning a new target lock and the effect would need to assign both a red and a blue target lock to be useful. You may happen to use the same tokens for the target lock but it would be a different target lock. If you were reassigning a target lock, it is the same target lock that has been transfered between ships.

The abilities for Manaroo and Jendon are both effects that allow you to reassign target lock tokens to another ship but there is no removal involved.

This is why I consider the Manaroo ruling unclear.

You either accept that removing a TL means removing it from the ship it was on (including in order to assign it to another ship), or you accept that removing a TL means 'remove from play' and that FFG wrote a rule subcase that makes 0 sense (assigning a TL that no longer exists because it was removed from play).

Personally, I feel the former requires a smaller leap in logic than the latter.

It's not removing it it's reassigning it. Yes you physically have to take it off of Manaroo to move it, but it's clear that it's the intent for Red and blue locks to move.

The rules on target lock removal written in the guide book are clearly there for cards like expert handling which tell you to remove an enemy target lock (and therefore for the opposing ship to remove its blue lock).

Then which is the effect that allows you to remove a blue target lock then reassign it to another ship (since that case is explicitly covered by the rules being discussed) ?

There isn't an effect like that that in the game as far as I know and I don't think that there could be. If you removed a target lock you wouldn't be able to reassign anything. You would be assigning a new target lock and the effect would need to assign both a red and a blue target lock to be useful. You may happen to use the same tokens for the target lock but it would be a different target lock. If you were reassigning a target lock, it is the same target lock that has been transfered between ships.

The abilities for Manaroo and Jendon are both effects that allow you to reassign target lock tokens to another ship but there is no removal involved.

This is why I consider the Manaroo ruling unclear.

You either accept that removing a TL means removing it from the ship it was on (including in order to assign it to another ship), or you accept that removing a TL means 'remove from play' and that FFG wrote a rule subcase that makes 0 sense (assigning a TL that no longer exists because it was removed from play).

Personally, I feel the former requires a smaller leap in logic than the latter.

Assign has been consisent in its use. If you're arguing Manaroo removes the lock, you are also arguing that Jendo has no pilot ability.

Nope. Removing and assigning blue target locks is explicitly stated in the rules reference to not remove the matching target lock.The issues are with moving red target locks,not blue.

Well, this is another example of a rule that could be argued to be unclear but literally no TO in the world would interpret in the way being put forward. Ask for clarification if you must, but we all know how it works, and we all know how our TOs would rule if we tried to game it.

Well, this is another example of a rule that could be argued to be unclear but literally no TO in the world would interpret in the way being put forward. Ask for clarification if you must, but we all know how it works, and we all know how our TOs would rule if we tried to game it.

I agree with this, but then again, I also had the same feeling about the infamous 'slam & bomb' case, and my hunch about what was actually intended proved to be wrong then and the RAW exacting crowd was actually right.

I've submitted a rules question about a similar but different issue. It is whether or not 4-LOM's ability can trigger Inspiring Recruit.

If 4-LOM ends up triggering Inspiring Recruit, that means that when a ship assigns one of its tokens to another ship, that the token counts as being removed from the original ship.

Well, this is another example of a rule that could be argued to be unclear but literally no TO in the world would interpret in the way being put forward. Ask for clarification if you must, but we all know how it works, and we all know how our TOs would rule if we tried to game it.

Do you LITERALLY know every TO in the world? Or are you kust generalizing for dramatic effect?

Personally,I'm interested in this from 2 angles:

- Theoretical. I just like rules to be clear.

- Vassal. A significant part of my competitive play takes place on Vassal and there's no TO present there. If you can't convince your opponent that your interpretation is correct, you usually need to roll for it. Something tells me an official FFG answer is a stronger argument than 'some guy on the internet said it's ridiculous to interpret this rule like this'.

This discussion has now smashed the roof off the stupidest case of Rules lawyering seen so far.

Is the physical action of removing a token from a ship the same as what is defined by the rules as removing a token? I cannot say with enough vitriol how stupid this argument is. I can only say I am extremely glad beyond the point of euphoria that I do not have to play games with people who think that Manaroo's ability some how has the ability to destroy TL's....

Is the physical action of removing a token from a ship the same as what is defined by the rules as removing a token? I cannot say with enough vitriol how stupid this argument is.

Would you then maybe be so kind and provide a reference in the rules where 'removing a token' is defined?

An official definition of remove would likely put this issue to rest for good.

This discussion has now smashed the roof off the stupidest case of Rules lawyering seen so far.

Is the physical action of removing a token from a ship the same as what is defined by the rules as removing a token? I cannot say with enough vitriol how stupid this argument is. I can only say I am extremely glad beyond the point of euphoria that I do not have to play games with people who think that Manaroo's ability some how has the ability to destroy TL's....

Lok up "Rules Lawyer" in the dictionary and you're going to see LordBlades avatar picture.

Lok up "Rules Lawyer" in the dictionary and you're going to see LordBlades avatar picture.

What exactly is this post adding to the discussion?

It's adding to the ridiculousness of this entire discussion. The fact you need every word and nuance defined when it is stated on said card that the tokens are assigned from Manaroo.

You are blowing everyone's minds with this stupidity.

The fact that from now on, whenever I see that avatar it will be with a sense of mounting dread.

And this isn't exactly a discussion, so much as it is a stubborn refusal to accept both the community consensus and RAI on your part.

Edit: RAW too, for that matter.

It's adding to the ridiculousness of this entire discussion. The fact you need every word and nuance defined when it is stated on said card that the tokens are assigned from Manaroo.

You are blowing everyone's minds with this stupidity.

I'm simply wondering if tokens assigned to another ship count as removed from the source ship or not.

If they don't, then what's the point of the clarification in brackets on the rules reference ? (The matching token is lost unless you are assigning the removed blue target lock to another ship).

I honestly fail to see how asking for an answer from FFG on this issue is doing a disservice to anyone.

This bickering is pointless. Look, we all like to make Manaroo work as the card says, but RAW is RAW. This is not an RPG where one can just decide that hill giants should be able to lift their own babies regardless of what the strength table says. It's rather presuming to think that a judge at a tournament will rule against RAW just because you prefer it that way.

It's adding to the ridiculousness of this entire discussion. The fact you need every word and nuance defined when it is stated on said card that the tokens are assigned from Manaroo.

You are blowing everyone's minds with this stupidity.

I'm not contesting that tokens are assigned and fir the record I think the RAI is that Manaroo shouldn't destroy red target locks

I'm simply wondering if tokens assigned to another ship count as removed from the source ship or not.

This is the whole point. The token is not being removed from play it is being assigned by Manaroo to another ship she decides. Red TL's are removed when a player spends them for a reroll. Ask for a clarification all you like, but needing one might indicate that this game is a bit advanced for you.

It's adding to the ridiculousness of this entire discussion. The fact you need every word and nuance defined when it is stated on said card that the tokens are assigned from Manaroo.

You are blowing everyone's minds with this stupidity.

I'm not contesting that tokens are assigned and fir the record I think the RAI is that Manaroo shouldn't destroy red target locks

I'm simply wondering if tokens assigned to another ship count as removed from the source ship or not.

This is the whole point. The token is not being removed from play it is being assigned by Manaroo to another ship she decides. Red TL's are removed when a player spends them for a reroll. Ask for a clarification all you like, but needing one might indicate that this game is a bit advanced for you.

The rules however, state that the red TL token is destroyed when it is removed "from the ship". It doesn't matter that it is not removed from play. All that is required is that it is removed from Manaroo, i.e. "the ship".

If you have a red target lock A on ship 1, and decide to aquire a lock on ship 2,when you remove A from ship 1 to place it on ship 2,the target lock isn't destroyed.

If you are arguing that the red target lock on Manaroo is destroyed, because it is being physically removed before being reassigned, then you'd have to agree that the red target lock from changing target lock targets is also destroyed.

If you have a red target lock A on ship 1, and decide to aquire a lock on ship 2,when you remove A from ship 1 to place it on ship 2,the target lock isn't destroyed.

If you are arguing that the red target lock on Manaroo is destroyed, because it is being physically removed before being reassigned, then you'd have to agree that the red target lock from changing target lock targets is also destroyed.