So you are contending that when you Refit your Fleet, you have effectively no limits?

Not 'no limits', just the limits outlined in the CC rulebook.

Specifically:

Then we don't even look at the points costs of cards anymore, because the fleet point cost of each ship, squadron and upgrade is printed in the lower right corner

Not so, page 11 of the CC notes you 'may spend resource points' to 'add new ships, squadrons, and upgrade cards' to your fleet. So clearly the costs are referenced.

Oh, and we don't have to worry about fleets must be rebel-aligned or imperial aligned, because that's part of that section, too...

Also in the CC rulebook, page 5 - '...divided into two teams of opposing factions - the Galactic Empire or Rebel Alliance'. Seems pretty clear that the two teams must be of different factions.

Sure, they are of different factions - but the restriction of not mixing the cards is now removed, as that is not specifically stated.

The Costs are implied, but again, we're talking about ignoring a portion of the rulebook here, and now you have no reference for those points costs....

The rules are that cut-and-dry. If you ignore a chunk of them for one reason, then ignore the associated chunks... Otherwise, you don't have a stable rules-based argument...

To be specific with it:

Nowhere in the Corellian Campaign Booklet, the Rules Reference, the Learn to Play Guide, and the Tournament documents (ie, the "Rules"), can I see to be allowed anything other than 1/3rd of my Points Cost for my Fleet, in Squadron Allowance.

I may take less, if I desire. I may build my fleet with less points than my limit, if I desire... But whenever I reference any rules on "how many squadrons can I have in my fleet?" - the Rules answer is no more than One Third of my Total Fleet Cost..

Point of order.

If you play strict 1/3, then get your fleet up to 500/167, then lose a ship based on it exploding while scarred, but your squads are intact, you would suddenly find your self with an illegal fleet according to 1/3 rule. So in play it's actually impossible to enforce 1/3, as there is no mechanic in CC to deal with squadrons over your limit. I conclude therefore that after initial build the squad limits are defenestrated and entirely replaced by the single 500 point limit.

As a house rule I could see the 167, but I don't think it's necessary. If a player wanted to get they many Squads, more power to them. That to me is just part of how the campaign plays, remembering that between games they have to effect repairs, and opponents can effect upgrades to counter.

In the end, I predict that the limits won't be nearly as important as the campaign continues. Most fleets that get to that point will start to level out anyway as the repair costs mount and attrition kicks in. They will also often find themselves at a disadvantage in game for spending so many points to get there. I just don't see a problem here.

Point of order.

If you play strict 1/3, then get your fleet up to 500/167, then lose a ship based on it exploding while scarred, but your squads are intact, you would suddenly find your self with an illegal fleet according to 1/3 rule. So in play it's actually impossible to enforce 1/3, as there is no mechanic in CC to deal with squadrons over your limit. I conclude therefore that after initial build the squad limits are defenestrated and entirely replaced by the single 500 point limit.

This is what I have been advocating from the start.

How many points you have in your fleet is completely irrelevant

What is relevant is the LIMIT

The limit, after the first game, is 500, and thus, 167

Point of order.

If you play strict 1/3, then get your fleet up to 500/167, then lose a ship based on it exploding while scarred, but your squads are intact, you would suddenly find your self with an illegal fleet according to 1/3 rule. So in play it's actually impossible to enforce 1/3, as there is no mechanic in CC to deal with squadrons over your limit. I conclude therefore that after initial build the squad limits are defenestrated and entirely replaced by the single 500 point limit.

This is what I have been advocating from the start.

How many points you have in your fleet is completely irrelevant

What is relevant is the LIMIT

The limit, after the first game, is 500, and thus, 167

If ever there was a "what Dras" said, this is definitely it.

You only use the 1/3 limit when building your initial fleet, sure (pg 5). There is no limit on squadrons when expanding your fleet that I can see, though (pg 11). Those two things are different processes that use different rules. The only time that squadron limit seems to trigger, again, is if you 'retire the fleet' (pg 13) - looks like you are back to 1/3 of 400 pts as your squadron cap, once more.

The Base Defense: Fighter Wing objective card allows the 40 pts of extra fighters to exceed the normal limit on squadron points. Specifying this exception would not be needed it there was no squadron limit. Therefore, there has to be some limit on the number of points spent on squadrons for each fleet throughout the campaign, not just during the initial 400 pt build.

Point of order.

If you play strict 1/3, then get your fleet up to 500/167, then lose a ship based on it exploding while scarred, but your squads are intact, you would suddenly find your self with an illegal fleet according to 1/3 rule. So in play it's actually impossible to enforce 1/3, as there is no mechanic in CC to deal with squadrons over your limit. I conclude therefore that after initial build the squad limits are defenestrated and entirely replaced by the single 500 point limit.

This is what I have been advocating from the start.

How many points you have in your fleet is completely irrelevant

What is relevant is the LIMIT

The limit, after the first game, is 500, and thus, 167

Where do you get the limit of 500 'after the first game', though? As you insist, there is nothing in the rulebook that SAYS that the point goal is now 500. It's noted as a maximum possible goal, of course - but you don't automatically get that number on round 2. You need to win those points to increase your possible fleet.

What if your team had a dreadful first campaign round, and received 0 resource points?

So my guess is cc is broken already

What if your team had a dreadful first campaign round, and received 0 resource points?

Your maximum possible limit is 500.

You're just using less than it. As is your prerogative and allowance under the rules.

There's nothing stopping you from taking 134 Points of Squadrons, and 1 Flotilla, in a 400pt game, after all....

I think its this simple the first round is a 400 point max game build as close to 400 as you can or want to, with up to 1/3 fighters (134 points) all the rest are 500 point max games with up to1/3 in fighters (167 points) . your trying to build to 500 points but your not likely to have the game points to get there but its still the stated game size.

At the start, players are working with a 400 point limit. It does not matter how many of those 400 points they actually use, the limit on squadron points is one-third of the total limit, or 134 points. After the first game, there is a limit of 500 points. Players might not be able to (or might choose not to) use the full 500 points, but that is still the limit. The limit on squadrons is still one-third of the maximum points, or 167 (the CC rules do not say anything about ignoring usual fleet building rules. The one-third limit has applied to all official point levels in the past, why not now?).

So 1st round 400 points build 134 for sqaudron, afterwards you can build towards 500 points which means 167 for sqaudron

To me it's very simple, first game is 400 max, so 134, after that it's 500 max, which means 167, because if you build a 350 point fleet for a 400 point game you don't do a third of that (117 or whatever). The max fleet size increases to 500, therefore 167. It doesn't matter what size the fleet is, the limitations simply are max 500 and 1/3 is squads.

To me it's very simple, first game is 400 max, so 134, after that it's 500 max, which means 167, because if you build a 350 point fleet for a 400 point game you don't do a third of that (117 or whatever). The max fleet size increases to 500, therefore 167. It doesn't matter what size the fleet is, the limitations simply are max 500 and 1/3 is squads.

This. I cant even comprehend how anyone is interpreting this as anything else. Stop overcomplicating the issue.

Why does this merit such debate?

Get with your group and make a decision. If you are incapable of making a decision, you have 2 grand admirals who get to make it for you. If you are a grand admiral and still can't make a decision, maybe you shouldn't be grand admiral.

Problem solved.

Also, Dras is correct. 167 points is the max limit for squads after the first battle. It is independent on what your fleet points is currently at.

not read it all..... but you can have more than 500 points worth of stuff.... you just cant use it as your fleet is capped at 500 points

(not got the CC rules on me... but its the part where they are talking of moving upgrades between ships & even not equipping them!)

so by that thought process you can have as many sqns as you like.... you just cant have more than 1/3 of your fleet points total (which is 500 points after the 1st round the fleet is used in) on the board

not read it all..... but you can have more than 500 points worth of stuff.... you just cant use it as your fleet is capped at 500 points

(not got the CC rules on me... but its the part where they are talking of moving upgrades between ships & even not equipping them!)

so by that thought process you can have as many sqns as you like.... you just cant have more than 1/3 of your fleet points total (which is 500 points after the 1st round the fleet is used in) on the board

The only thing you are allowed to "remove" from your fleet and "Store" are "Upgrades"/

Not Ships.

Not Squadrons.

Just "Upgrades".

Way I read it is that you can own 500 points worth of stuff.

You can leave upgrades (non-title) behind if you like.

not read it all..... but you can have more than 500 points worth of stuff.... you just cant use it as your fleet is capped at 500 points

(not got the CC rules on me... but its the part where they are talking of moving upgrades between ships & even not equipping them!)

so by that thought process you can have as many sqns as you like.... you just cant have more than 1/3 of your fleet points total (which is 500 points after the 1st round the fleet is used in) on the board

The only thing you are allowed to "remove" from your fleet and "Store" are "Upgrades"/

Not Ships.

Not Squadrons.

Just "Upgrades".

thought i'd missed something.... oh well....

where does it say you can't have more stuff then the 500 points you put on on the table in a battle??

What are you going to have a big pile of points?? and forced to kill off a ship to change it out for something else??

you could end up with enough ships,fighters,and up grades to have two or more 500 point forces in your fleet if your winning.

but you can only field one 500 point force,

Game rules are permissive, not restrictive. A game doesn't have to say "you can't do X". It needs to say you can do X.

In CC you can have a fleet of up to 500 points.

In CC you can move upgrades between ships.

In CC you can leave some upgrades behind.

Nowhere does it allow you to have a fleet of more than 500 points.

Game rules are permissive, not restrictive. A game doesn't have to say "you can't do X". It needs to say you can do X.

In CC you can have a fleet of up to 500 points.

In CC you can move upgrades between ships.

In CC you can leave some upgrades behind.

Nowhere does it allow you to have a fleet of more than 500 points.

Its states you CAN put 500 points on the table.

What do you do with any extra points or ships you don't want on the table??

Game rules are permissive, not restrictive. A game doesn't have to say "you can't do X". It needs to say you can do X.

In CC you can have a fleet of up to 500 points.

In CC you can move upgrades between ships.

In CC you can leave some upgrades behind.

Nowhere does it allow you to have a fleet of more than 500 points.

Its states you CAN put 500 points on the table.

What do you do with any extra points or ships you don't want on the table??

Upgrades can be Removed from ships, and effectively "Stored" in between battles - not equipped to anything. You do this during your Maintenance refit. So it is possible to own more than 500pts of Things, and only have 500 on the table.

However -

The only things you can own, that are "not in play" are Non-Title Upgrades.

Every Ship you own, must be in Play. It is part of your Fleet. There are no rules (beyond destruction) for Removing a Ship from your Fleet.

Every Squadron you own, must be in Play. It is part of your Fleet. There are no rules (beyond destruction) for Removing a Squadron from your Fleet.

Does it specifically say that "stored" upgrades are not counted in your fleet point total?

With what wording are you satisfied with?

Because the wording you are given is:

"A Player may

re-equip upgrade cards to different ships within his own fleet
(without spending additional resource points) or un-equip

upgrade cards entirely. However, a player cannot re-equip or

un-equip (title) Cards. Upgrade cards that are not

equipped are set aside and can be equipped during a later campaign turn."



Does it say "They are not part of your fleet" in so many words?

No.

That's asking for too much.

"Set aside", "Un-equipped entirely", "Maybe equipepd in a later campaign turn"...

But its a good point... If its un-equipped and set aside, is it part of your fleet cost? Where is it recorded? Does it still cost you, since you can't *sell* them, is it just *resources wasted* that point?

I choose to believe and Interpret that if they're not equipped - then they're not part of your Fleet. They're in a Warehouse Somewhere, safe from destruction, but completely effin' useless to my TO&E when it comes to Battle.

I'm of the opinion that "cannot exceed 500 points" also includes any unequipped upgrades. Who knows.

I will say that with refits and the lack of points coming in it may be really hard to even get to 500 points.