Hi all

just wondering about the wording of the Strength/Magnitude/Range upgrades on Force powers. For example, with Move It says that I can spend Force pips to increase silhouette by the number of Strength upgrades and that this can be done multiple times.

Assuming I have 3 upgrades, should I interpret that as "Spend up to 3 pips, with each pip increasing Silhouette by 1, thus affecting a silhouette 3 target" or "Spend 1 pip to increase silhouette by 3. Repeat until you run out of pips."

I'm just trying to work out the intent in my head...

Lets say Vader (Force Rating 6 with all 4 Strength and Range upgrades just for arguments sake) rolls his dice. He can generate a minimum of 6 pips and a maximum of 12:

By the first interpretation, the minimum Vader can do is throw a Lambda-class Shuttle or a YT-1300 that he's standing near without fail (barring Strain costs for White pips) for 5 pips (1 to activate, plus 4 for the ship), but nothing bigger. This sounds about right to me.

By the second interpretation, the MINIMUM Vader can do is move a silhouette 20 object (4 upgrades x minimum of 5 pips, plus 1 pip to activate) he's standing next to, without fail. Now, a Star Destroyer is silhouette 8. Hell, the Death Star could well be a 20 the way size vs silhouette works in this game.

The second example seems completely off the scale, and yet the rules read more like the second example than they do for the first example.

Am I missing something or was this the intention of the game designers?

Can someone with the full Move tree and 6 force Rating really move (1 pip) NINE (2 pips) Star Destroyers (2 pips) from Extreme range (1 pip) at the same time, at a MINIMUM?

Please help as my brain is melting.

* I'm taking the 6 Force rating from the EotE Beta book which I know is no longer part of the rules, but 6 FR isn't completely unreasonable considering there are more than 15 "+1 Force Rating" upgrades currently published.

Strength/Duration/Magnitude all operate the same way. If you activate one of them, you get equal to the number of upgrades per Pip spent. So if you have 3 Strength upgrades, and you spend 1 Pip on Strength, you get +3 for 1 Pip.

This is why the EotE beta Ratings have been rolled back on. I believe that 2 is now the "Standard Jedi", 3 "Named Jedi", and 4 "Master Jedi", with Yoda being 5. That's a lot of XP to get there. Force Ratings have gotten a little wonky since F&D came out.

Thanks for the info!

So, if my example force user were FR4 with all Move upgrades, he would generate between 4 and 8 FP per roll.

Therefore his minimum would be 1FP to activate Move, plus 2 FP for Star Destroyer equivalent, plus 1FP for 5 of them. At a minimum...

That's still way over-powered, surely?

Thanks for the info!

So, if my example force user were FR4 with all Move upgrades, he would generate between 4 and 8 FP per roll.

Therefore his minimum would be 1FP to activate Move, plus 2 FP for Star Destroyer equivalent, plus 1FP for 5 of them. At a minimum...

That's still way over-powered, surely?

In theory yeah, they could slowly move an ISD or two. But they're also going to get shot at simultaneouslty by a few dozen turbolaser batteries, so assuming they were able to activate and move anything, they'll just get instantly vaporized anyway unless you happen to be doing this in an unmanned and unguarded shipyard that had no defenses to incinerate this force user attempting to juggle imperial star destroyers.

Hi all

just wondering about the wording of the Strength/Magnitude/Range upgrades on Force powers. For example, with Move It says that I can spend Force pips to increase silhouette by the number of Strength upgrades and that this can be done multiple times.

Assuming I have 3 upgrades, should I interpret that as "Spend up to 3 pips, with each pip increasing Silhouette by 1, thus affecting a silhouette 3 target" or "Spend 1 pip to increase silhouette by 3. Repeat until you run out of pips."

I'm just trying to work out the intent in my head...

Lets say Vader (Force Rating 6 with all 4 Strength and Range upgrades just for arguments sake) rolls his dice. He can generate a minimum of 6 pips and a maximum of 12:

By the first interpretation, the minimum Vader can do is throw a Lambda-class Shuttle or a YT-1300 that he's standing near without fail (barring Strain costs for White pips) for 5 pips (1 to activate, plus 4 for the ship), but nothing bigger. This sounds about right to me.

By the second interpretation, the MINIMUM Vader can do is move a silhouette 20 object (4 upgrades x minimum of 5 pips, plus 1 pip to activate) he's standing next to, without fail. Now, a Star Destroyer is silhouette 8. Hell, the Death Star could well be a 20 the way size vs silhouette works in this game.

The second example seems completely off the scale, and yet the rules read more like the second example than they do for the first example.

Am I missing something or was this the intention of the game designers?

Can someone with the full Move tree and 6 force Rating really move (1 pip) NINE (2 pips) Star Destroyers (2 pips) from Extreme range (1 pip) at the same time, at a MINIMUM?

Please help as my brain is melting.

* I'm taking the 6 Force rating from the EotE Beta book which I know is no longer part of the rules, but 6 FR isn't completely unreasonable considering there are more than 15 "+1 Force Rating" upgrades currently published.

OK a few things here:

1.) Multiple copies of the Strength/Range/Magnitude upgrades typically stack with each other, and can be activated multiple times So using the move power as an example, if you have three strength upgrades, one pip will get you +3, 2 pips would get you +6 (and so on) to the silhouette you can potentially move. One caveat here: You have to read the specific talent text for each Force Power entry (not just the wording in the trees). Some Strength/Range/Magnitude upgrades CANNOT be activated multiple times.

2.) a FR of 6 is very high, and is a character with a lot of experience. It would require at least three different spec trees, two of which would need to have two Force Rating increase talents. Some might call this getting into Jedi Master range, though such a term is not defined in the rules.

3.) Theoretically you could move a Star Destroyer if you get enough pips, but the range upgrades are at personal scale, not vehicular scale. Even Extreme personal scale range is not larger than close planetary scale range, which means you pretty much need to be right next to the SD. Further, the basic move power is a 'slow deliberate' move per the text, and the station keeping drives of the SD would probably overcome that inertia pretty easily.

4.) If you are going to actually try flinging those SD using the hurl power, you need to make an 8 purple Discipline check. A GM can rule this falls into the 'impossible' check category since it is over 5 purple dice (though there are specific exceptions to this rule).

5.) There are lots of threads on the Move Power, including a recent one that is up to 10 pages of commentary about whether the power is too powerful. The main take away is if players want to abuse it, they can, but in many cases the abuse occurs because of a misinterpretation of what can be done with the power, and what skill rolls are involved.

I was thinking more of being on a rebel capital ship and forcing an SD to collide with another using the Hurley Objects Control effect.

Thanks for the info!

So, if my example force user were FR4 with all Move upgrades, he would generate between 4 and 8 FP per roll.

Therefore his minimum would be 1FP to activate Move, plus 2 FP for Star Destroyer equivalent, plus 1FP for 5 of them. At a minimum...

That's still way over-powered, surely?

I completely agree. Sending Five Star Destroyers against the PCs is overpowered.

But what you are looking at here is raw mechanics of an RPG system that is designed to primarily be narrative driven. That is, no encounter should occur 'just because', there should typically be a "why, what, how, and where" attached to the encounter. If the PCs are tangling with 5 Star Destroyers, there is something large and epic going on.

And that, Mr Magnus, is the control I needed but completely missed in the rulebook. I can't thank you enough!

"The attack's difficulty is equal to the silhouette of the object being thrown". I was beginning to have nightmares about what my players would do but now I can sleep a little easier.

Thanks again!

I was thinking more of being on a rebel capital ship and forcing an SD to collide with another using the Hurley Objects Control effect.

Well again, the range upgrade powers are personal scale, not planetary scale. Unless the two SDs in question are at close range to each other, it doesn't work. Further, the hurl power would cause each ship to take 10 * silhouette in damage, so this would be 80 damage... but that is personal scale damage! Converting to vehicular scale is only 8 points, which doesn't even get through the armor on the two ships.

And remember hurling objects now requires a ranged attack roll using discipline, with difficulty set at one purple per silhouette of the object. So that is an 8 purple (before any upgrades and set back dice) discipline check.

And that, Mr Magnus, is the control I needed but completely missed in the rulebook. I can't thank you enough!

"The attack's difficulty is equal to the silhouette of the object being thrown". I was beginning to have nightmares about what my players would do but now I can sleep a little easier.

Thanks again!

Yeah, the trick with an attack difficulty of 8 is, according to the rules, it would be a Daunting check upgraded three times so five dice total, three of them being red dice.

It would be Formidable difficulty upgaded 3 times, as Formidable is 5 purple dice and the supposed difficulty cap before you get to the whole "Impossible check" rules and start upgrading the difficulty dice for each one past Formidable. Also, with the Impossible rules, you would need to flip a Destiny point to even attempt the check, thereby locking you out of spending a Destiny point to use Dark Side force points and potentially stopping you from being able to throw said Star Destroyer.

The irony is that the ability to move a Star Destroyer would be utterly meaningless in SWRP, because you're moving things in personal scale, and that means a Star Destroyer is longer than the total distance you can move it in one round.

If you used Move on a Star Destroyer it would probably at most register a small navigational error and make a minor course correction. Unless it's right up against something moving it wouldn't even really register.

Well... making it crash would be fun, though it would be so close that you'd likely hurt or kill yourself in the process.

There's a lot of people out there that want to do the whole Starkiller thing.

Yeaa, personally I think Move is actually too powerful compared to what they are able to do with it in the movies. They put it in a weird place between movie strength Move and power fantasy game strength Move.

Hm. Well, in Rebels, Vader was able to lift a couple walkers that fell down and that was after they landed on him... imagine if he had moved them before getting crushed.

Maul in Clone Wars was able to drag a ship off a cliff to use as an obstacle for people chasing him.

Kanan and Ezra lifted a blast door together that had to be silhouette 3+ and that was back when they weren't as powerful as they are now.

Granted, that's all stuff around silhouette 2-4; anything higher hasn't been shown as possible in the canon.

Move is something you need to talk to the player about and work it out with them in advance. Far too often people in the forums have approached the situation as if the players are the enemy and should be defeated. Players have just as much invested in the game as the GM does its not the GM's job to beat the players and creating such a situation is just bad all around. Its a collaboration where both parties need to be flexible and compromise.

The issue with move is that it only costs a single force point to go from lifting one super heavy object to lifting 5 with all the same precision and control. That's where they lose me.

I can buy moving one giant object with great concentration. I can buy moving a cluster of smaller objects by just sort of projecting a wave of force that pushes all of them in the same direction, that also makes sense. I find it ridiculous to actually move 5 individual giant objects in complex ways to different destinations at the same time though.

That completely defies even what Starkiller could accomplish, because despite all the absurd power he had, he was still bound by only being able to concentrate on one thing. Being able to split your awareness five ways on the other hand is a feat that not just defies human ability, but human comprehension. You can't even really imagine what it would be like to be able to divide your brain into portions that handle individual tasks while still being aware of all of them. Multi-threading consciousness is something only droids do in my Starwars universe, hence why I make people take Discipline rolls as if they are using Autofire or Blast when they start popping the magnitudes.

Just want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who participated in this thread. There have been some interesting rules revelations for me, and it's all been conducted in a civil manner, something I find quite rare on internet forums these days.

Thanks once again and Merry Christmas to you all!

Happy Life Day! *shudder*

Hm. Well, in Rebels, Vader was able to lift a couple walkers that fell down and that was after they landed on him... imagine if he had moved them before getting crushed.

Yes, a couple, Sil3, with great dramatic slowness and great awe expressed by Kanan who, having been a Padawan, must have seen "some stuff".

Maul in Clone Wars was able to drag a ship off a cliff to use as an obstacle for people chasing him.

Sil3, dragged, with great effort.

Kanan and Ezra lifted a blast door together that had to be silhouette 3+ and that was back when they weren't as powerful as they are now.

Except that Kanan specifically says something like "imagine the locking mechanism in your mind", so it was less moving the object, and more overriding the strength of the lock, which, with gears and stuff, doesn't have to be that strong, just complicated.

What people seem to ignore is the amount of visible effort it takes just to move things (never mind throw them), but the Move power doesn't consider any of it. Just moving things ought to extract a price in Strain at least.

The issue with move is that it only costs a single force point to go from lifting one super heavy object to lifting 5 with all the same precision and control. That's where they lose me.

I can buy moving one giant object with great concentration. I can buy moving a cluster of smaller objects by just sort of projecting a wave of force that pushes all of them in the same direction, that also makes sense. I find it ridiculous to actually move 5 individual giant objects in complex ways to different destinations at the same time though.

That completely defies even what Starkiller could accomplish, because despite all the absurd power he had, he was still bound by only being able to concentrate on one thing. Being able to split your awareness five ways on the other hand is a feat that not just defies human ability, but human comprehension. You can't even really imagine what it would be like to be able to divide your brain into portions that handle individual tasks while still being aware of all of them. Multi-threading consciousness is something only droids do in my Starwars universe, hence why I make people take Discipline rolls as if they are using Autofire or Blast when they start popping the magnitudes.

And how much xp do tjey have to have to do this? I am always seeing people freak out about move. But i never see anyone take into account how much xp is needed. Force rating 4 is expensive all on its own. Add the cost of move and you have a significant investment in xp

Hm. Well, in Rebels, Vader was able to lift a couple walkers that fell down and that was after they landed on him... imagine if he had moved them before getting crushed.

Yes, a couple, Sil3, with great dramatic slowness and great awe expressed by Kanan who, having been a Padawan, must have seen "some stuff".

Maul in Clone Wars was able to drag a ship off a cliff to use as an obstacle for people chasing him.

Sil3, dragged, with great effort.

Kanan and Ezra lifted a blast door together that had to be silhouette 3+ and that was back when they weren't as powerful as they are now.

Except that Kanan specifically says something like "imagine the locking mechanism in your mind", so it was less moving the object, and more overriding the strength of the lock, which, with gears and stuff, doesn't have to be that strong, just complicated.

What people seem to ignore is the amount of visible effort it takes just to move things (never mind throw them), but the Move power doesn't consider any of it. Just moving things ought to extract a price in Strain at least.

Maul moved the ship with one hand while on the run... that seems like less effort than you portray in your post. Anywho, my point was that the most we see is Sil3 objects being moved in the canon. It's possible but it seems to be the limit.

Move is one of those Force powers that looks far more potent on paper than it actually is in game play.

Until you've had Force user PCs accumulate several hundred XP, they're not going to be able to reliably (and this is the key word) be able to do all that stuff.

Sure, being able to throw around several Silhouette 4 objects out to Extreme Range sounds pretty awesome, but you're looking at a bare minimum of 4 Force points needed with a lot of XP invested in just the Move power alone, or even more XP invested into specs to get your Force Rating to the ridiculous level necessary.

There's also a matter of setting and scene. Unless you're in a starport or military hanger, there shouldn't be much in the way of objects that are above Silhouette 2, if that. Consider the ESB battle between Luke and Vader; I wouldn't class anything available to be hurled with Move as above Silhouette 1 unless Vader wanted to seriously tear up the environment.

There's also the fact that if you're attacking with multiple objects, you have to follow the rules for autofire, so if you're throwing really big objects, that's going to cut deeply into your chances of actually being able to hit with all the objects unless you've seriously maxed out your Discipline dice pool (Willpower 6 and Discipline 5), which itself is even more XP that needs to be spent. For most PCs, they're going to have to choose between the chance of hitting multiple times with small objects or getting one hit with a really big object.

As for Vader's feats of telekinesis, such as lifting up those walkers in Rebels, I'd consider it less a case of what he could do and more that he was deliberately trying to psych out his opponents and show them just how outclassed they were, much as he toyed with Luke throughout the majority of their duel on Bespin, and only got serious once Luke managed to land a solid hit, after which the fight ended pretty decisively.

There's also the matter of intent and "appropriate measure of force" in terms of using Move. In many cases, hurling about really big objects with Move is going to cause property damage, and may well fall under the header of "excessive force" in terms of resolving a threat. So in that respect, the GM shouldn't be afraid to assign Conflict if the PC is going overboard with using Move to attack, such as dropping a light freighter (Silhouette 4) on a squad of stormtroopers, or ripping up huge chunks (Silhouette 2+) of streets and nearby buildings to hurl at their foes (i.e. unnecessary and excessive destruction of property). Between Conflict gained that way and Conflict gained from using dark side pips to fuel the power (especially when the PC has only got a Force Rating of 2 or less), that's going to be a detriment to any PC that's hoping to get to Light Side Paragon, and may well push them even faster towards being a dark sider if they're too cavalier with their actions.

Move is one of those Force powers that looks far more potent on paper than it actually is in game play.

Until you've had Force user PCs accumulate several hundred XP, they're not going to be able to reliably (and this is the key word) be able to do all that stuff.

Sure, being able to throw around several Silhouette 4 objects out to Extreme Range sounds pretty awesome, but you're looking at a bare minimum of 4 Force points needed with a lot of XP invested in just the Move power alone, or even more XP invested into specs to get your Force Rating to the ridiculous level necessary.

There's also a matter of setting and scene. Unless you're in a starport or military hanger, there shouldn't be much in the way of objects that are above Silhouette 2, if that. Consider the ESB battle between Luke and Vader; I wouldn't class anything available to be hurled with Move as above Silhouette 1 unless Vader wanted to seriously tear up the environment.

There's also the fact that if you're attacking with multiple objects, you have to follow the rules for autofire, so if you're throwing really big objects, that's going to cut deeply into your chances of actually being able to hit with all the objects unless you've seriously maxed out your Discipline dice pool (Willpower 6 and Discipline 5), which itself is even more XP that needs to be spent. For most PCs, they're going to have to choose between the chance of hitting multiple times with small objects or getting one hit with a really big object.

As for Vader's feats of telekinesis, such as lifting up those walkers in Rebels, I'd consider it less a case of what he could do and more that he was deliberately trying to psych out his opponents and show them just how outclassed they were, much as he toyed with Luke throughout the majority of their duel on Bespin, and only got serious once Luke managed to land a solid hit, after which the fight ended pretty decisively.

There's also the matter of intent and "appropriate measure of force" in terms of using Move. In many cases, hurling about really big objects with Move is going to cause property damage, and may well fall under the header of "excessive force" in terms of resolving a threat. So in that respect, the GM shouldn't be afraid to assign Conflict if the PC is going overboard with using Move to attack, such as dropping a light freighter (Silhouette 4) on a squad of stormtroopers, or ripping up huge chunks (Silhouette 2+) of streets and nearby buildings to hurl at their foes (i.e. unnecessary and excessive destruction of property). Between Conflict gained that way and Conflict gained from using dark side pips to fuel the power (especially when the PC has only got a Force Rating of 2 or less), that's going to be a detriment to any PC that's hoping to get to Light Side Paragon, and may well push them even faster towards being a dark sider if they're too cavalier with their actions.

I agree, and I also think the biggest thing a lot of people forget is an RPG isn't just about the rules it uses. The story is only partially driven by the game's mechanical aspects. As Donovan and Daeglan have said, the XP required to get this power up to that level takes a bit of doing. Even once you have spent that level of XP, the question (to go with the Force Unleashed level of craziness) shouldn't necessarily be 'Can I pull that Star Destroyer out of the sky' but 'Should I pull that Star Destroyer out of the sky'. Once you have done something so obviously powerful, why wouldn't the entire Inquisitorius led by Darth Vader hunt you down and either convert or kill you? Narrative should also be considered when you are looking at what to spend your XP on and what direction the story should go in, IMO. Especially if you are playing in a mixed game (force-users and non force-users), this type of Force usage can negatively derail the story by centering the attention around one player.

Anyway, that's my 2 credits.

Even once you have spent that level of XP, the question (to go with the Force Unleashed level of craziness) shouldn't necessarily be 'Can I pull that Star Destroyer out of the sky' but 'Should I pull that Star Destroyer out of the sky'.

That's the crux of the difference of opinion. I don't even want it to be an option at my table. Objects as big as Sil3 seem to require every iota of attention even by the masters, and Padawans show equal strain at Sil1. I have zero interest in pretending otherwise in my game. I really like the idea that Move is very hard to do: it fits better with my interpretation of the metaphysics; and I find it aesthetically less "comic book" and a little more serious. The "somebody might see you" argument is completely irrelevant in that context, not to mention that a mechanic that relies on social constraints is by definition broken.

Yea, if you use Yoda moving the X-wing as a benchmark for what Move should do then there is a huge disparity between the FFG rules and the movies.

I wrote a rebuild of the move power a while back just as a sort of thought experiment of how to write a power that is more representative of what we see in the movies, this is what I came up with:

Though my tree actually does include the ability to move Star Destroyers if you generated enough force pips, but since you could only move it a medium personal scale distance it simply wouldn't accomplish anything.