What the big deal with them. Even with New ace pack for them I dont see why ever one loves them

Also what the deal with palp to how is he such a threat. How do people use him that ever one hate him

I been watch a lot of battle reports with what people call palp aces so just asking what this all means

just the magic of guaranteed damage cancelation. Being able to guarantee 2 or more basically renders you immortal 1v1

also some math or other parsing out that the Tie Defender x7 is the most cost efficient ship for raw dice when you factor in the x7 title's free evade some x% of the time. Believe it was 50%

basically, it's all about the x7 title

Basically, yeah.

I mean, the game IS pretty well balanced - running 'Palp aces with x7 Defenders' isn't exactly an okay, I put these down on the table so now I just win, why don't you pack up and go home? sort of thing.

It's just that it's a very forgiving list, so you can survive a couple complete-blowouts of the dice, when a lot of other lists crumble when faced with a terrible turn of rolls. This one doesn't, which lets you keep fighting and (depending on tactics) maybe turn things back around.

I'm pretty sure that if they had reversed the cost of the titles we'd still be seeing a lot of X7 Defenders.

just the magic of guaranteed damage cancelation. Being able to guarantee 2 or more basically renders you immortal 1v1

also some math or other parsing out that the Tie Defender x7 is the most cost efficient ship for raw dice when you factor in the x7 title's free evade some x% of the time. Believe it was 50%

basically, it's all about the x7 title

Then comes old teroch or omega leader and just blows you away regardless in a 1vs1.

And in full lists combos like teroch + fenn rau have a decent shot to kill all 6 hp of a defender in a single turn. So yeah, they are pretty forgiving, but they are as well pretty predictable which might still lead to severe punishment.

I'm pretty sure that if they had reversed the cost of the titles we'd still be seeing a lot of X7 Defenders.

I've been wondering about that. Right now the -2 cost to X7 title fits perfectly for many lists to get the pilots you WANT and the upgrades you WANT. Ryad Vessery Palpatine without PTL + Juke just looks not as appealing, and will be noticeably worse. Dropping to an Onyx seems poor, and a Delta at PS1 has its own issues. 3 X7 Defenders would also have to be 2 x Onyx + 1 x Glaive, with no EPT, which seems pretty poor, or at best, no EPTs on Ryad + Vessery + Delta. We suddenly lose the "roughly 33 pts per ship" situation that they are at.

X7 just seems to be "the right upgrade for the right ship to put them in the right costs to allow them to succeed in 100 pt lists". Where as many other ships don't fit into this category so perfectly.

And of course, the X7 title makes them uber efficient.

I just have a feeling getting rid of the -2 cost could be just the ticket to lower the power level of the X7 version of that ship. Though, we'll never see Brath again (his ability always feels sh*tty anyways, so not a terrible waste).

Taking one tie Defender with tractor beam and a tie swarm is a rough time for anyone

I guess I just dont see how there any different and so good

Imagine an X-Wing. Now imagine a 7 point upgrade that gave it an extra hit point, the ability to k-turn without stress, an extra green die, the ability to barrel roll, and a free evade token most rounds. Would you pay the 7 points? Hell yeah you would.

Congrats, you just turned your x-wing into an x7 Defender.

Efficiency. Period

I guess I just dont see how there any different and so good

Now, something to always remember when reading stuff online is that most of the people who are posting are there to complain. Despite what some posters would say, an x7 Defender still has counters and will die if flown improperly or if Lady Luck turns her back. They are way more forgiving to fly then other ships, like Xanderf said, which means they are generally a safe bet to fly, and in a game with dice, you want all the guarantees you can get.

As for Palp, his ability is also all about reducing dependence on luck. He's pretty expensive and only two normal ships can carry him, but he's proven to be that little bit extra Imps need to keeping their low health ships alive. With a little help from Palp and token stacking, an ace like Fel can evade almost any shot taken on him, even if the green dice only have mediocre luck. Beatable, but a deadly tool in a good player's hands.

Now, you put the two ingredients together. Palp, who can help keep his supports alive or have them hit harder, and x7 Defenders, who have most of the same defensive capabilities as other imp ace ships with more guarantees and more hit points. It's a powerful combo that is hard to hit and can't be one shoted like an Interceptor (by normal means, anyway).

Now, again, you are more likely to find complainers posting online then contented players. That's in part why you see so much buzz against them. They are really good at what they do, but I don't think they are as broken as some people claim. The right tactics and knowledge can see victory versus Palp and Defenders, or them separately. It can be difficult, but doesn't that make a victory all the more sweet?

Have a look at the final from the Copenhagen Regionals (starts 3:33:30 into the clip) - 3 Defenders vs. 2 Defenders and a Palpmobile - and you'll see what they are good for:

I guess I just dont get palp and how his ability is so good change one dice just dont seem that great our am not understanding the card

I guess I just dont see how there any different and so good

Consider a 'normal' (3 dice, no action shenanigans) ship like an x-wing. When rolling your 3 red duce you can usually expect a pretty even mix of 1 and 2 hit results. Or you can add a Focus or Target Lock to push the results into usually 2 hits, sometimes 3 hits.

Let's look at your average 2 hits result. The x7 defender usually has a Focus and Evade (from title). You shoot him. He rolls his 3 greens and likely he gets at least one symbol (Focus or Evade), possibly 2. Your attack is likely completely negated with the expenditure of 1 or both tokens. You'd need a 2nd x-wing (so way mre points than a Defender in total) to shoot in order to have a decent chance to deal 1 damage to the Defender, and he has 6 HP.

Meanwhile, the Defender will chew through your abourt 6 HP 2 green dice significantly faster

I guess I just dont see how there any different and so good

Stats wise, 3-3-3-3 is much better than the average small ship.

It is the only ship in the game that has a natural white K-Turn

Before the Veterans pack came out it was over priced, but of the 2 other similar ships (Star Viper and the E-Wing), it was the most useful. (Outside of Corran Horn.)

The TIE/x reduces the price significantly while adding a free evade action for performing speed 3 maneuvers. While you sacrifice canons and your missile slot, it is well worth the trade. It is essentially a free action. The evade combined with Juke makes it relatively deadly.

Remember all the fuss Han Solo brought to the table in Wave 2? Me neither but then again I didn't jump in until late in Wave 3 and I can tell you Han wasn't much of an issue. He couldn't throw out as much red dice as TIE Swarms can.

Then Wave 4 came (the one where the TIE Defender launched) and the TIE Phantom ate up all the swarms, (and Biggs along with his X-wing and B-wing buddies). The only thing Whisper couldn't eat was Han Solo. Thus the Fat Han and all the meta complaints until autothursters palp soontir and TLTs came along and power creep and accretion finally swept Fat Han away.

With all that the TIE Defender (from Wave 4) finally got some toys that allows it to play in the big leagues without getting chewed up and spit out, but now since it is on top the meta has to complain about it.

I guess I just dont get palp and how his ability is so good change one dice just dont seem that great our am not understanding the card

I guess I just dont get palp and how his ability is so good change one dice just dont seem that great our am not understanding the card

Ok, I understand this. However, that one dice makes all the difference on certain ships. It is all about the guaranteed evade factor on valuable ships.

I am a Dash player, I have been a YT-2400 fanboy since the Shadows of the Empire N64 video game.

Dash (in the Outrider) has a 4 dice shot in that 360 degree donut. Which is awesome, 4 dice are fairly capable of hitting most naked ships at least once per turn. (Roughly speaking)

Now take a Soontir Fel. 3 evade dice naturally. Plus auto-thrusters gives him 1 guaranteed evade (against a turret), he can take an evade token which is another guaranteed evade, then you add Palpatine and that is 3 guaranteed evade dice! That is most ships firepower! Soontir Fel can get a guarantee evade against a single ship once per turn on most ships. Plus his focus and a stealth device makes him extremely hard to hit, even with 4+ dice, even when you out fly him, to get him in your arc.

With Dash you have to roll all 4 hits just to even have a chance of hitting a Soontir Fel supported by Palps. Even when you do get all 4 dice hitting, the chance he rolls one evade is pretty likely. (Not to mention Fel's awesome Arc Dodging ability that I am not even factoring in.)

That is just one example.

Palp list do have weaknesses, as you point out, it is only one dice. So the more ships the opponent has, the less effective Palps will be. But that one dice per-round on the average 100 point game is a much bigger factor than it sounds. Especially when used on evades.

(PS I am not complaining, since that is the nature of the game, I enjoy crafting list to take down the top meta.)

Remember all the fuss Han Solo brought to the table in Wave 2? Me neither but then again I didn't jump in until late in Wave 3 and I can tell you Han wasn't much of an issue. He couldn't throw out as much red dice as TIE Swarms can.

Then Wave 4 came (the one where the TIE Defender launched) and the TIE Phantom ate up all the swarms, (and Biggs along with his X-wing and B-wing buddies). The only thing Whisper couldn't eat was Han Solo. Thus the Fat Han and all the meta complaints until autothursters palp soontir and TLTs came along and power creep and accretion finally swept Fat Han away.

With all that the TIE Defender (from Wave 4) finally got some toys that allows it to play in the big leagues without getting chewed up and spit out, but now since it is on top the meta has to complain about it.

Tie Defenders are good and near the top of the Meta, (which I think they SHOULD be) they are not nearly as unbalanced as some of the pervious wave. People are complaining to complain.

I like the Meta currently, I think it is in a good place.

I guess I just dont get palp and how his ability is so good change one dice just dont seem that great our am not understanding the card

Do you remember how you were saying It's really hard for ships to kill one another in X-wing?

Well....I'm not entirely convinced I agree, but at the very least, doing a point of damage isn't easy.

Every turn, there tends to be one roll that's critical. With TIE interceptors, it's usually an evade roll - because whilst they get loads of green dice and tokens, the stealth device they tend to carry means that the moment they get hit, not only have they lost 1/3 of their hull, but their future defence is shot through, and - because you cancel a critical result after all the normal hits - the one damage that sneaks through is usually a critical hit, which can mess you up no end (theoretically, with Major Explosion, followed by Direct Hit, it could even kill you outright!)

Palpatine means that after everything that ship can do - green dice, evade token, focus token, whatever, if there's still one damage left, you can twitch a blank into an evade and stop it.

Also, because it's not tied to one ship, it's flexible. Palpatine can sit at the back of the board, nice and safe, and hand his bonus to whoever needs it, when they need it - you don't have to commit it in advance with an action (like an evade token or something).

Also, also - Palpatine works on any dice you roll - clipped a rock, or a proximity mine? You can use him (if you don't want him later in the turn) to avoid damage. Got a critical that takes a hit on a red die to fix? Sorted. And - most important of all - you can use him to guarantee a critical hit on an attack die roll. Which is (a) awesome anyway, and (b) even more awesome if you have a pilot who's special ability triggers off critical hits. Palpatine turns the 14 point TIE fighter "Wampa" from an annoyance into an ace killer that has 40+ point E-wings running for their lives....

What the big deal with them. Even with New ace pack for them I dont see why ever one loves them

More or less what ficklegreendice and xanderf said - TIE Defenders are tough ships even before the ace pack - more hit points than the Khiraxz your opponent uses, behind the green dice of a TIE interceptor like you use.

The problem was that (a) they were expensive and (b) whilst they had lots of green dice they didn't have the ability to evade (which was always odd as they had an evade token in the pack, if I recall).

The Ace pack includes the TIE/x7 title, which (a) makes them cheaper, and (b) gives them free evade tokens - therefore fixing their weak spots.

The evade token makes them hellishly tough. Imagine a khiraxz, with the green dice of a TIE interceptor, which gets its lost shield back every turn. That's not an exact parallel, but it's pretty close.

Plus, the TIE defender has a few other tricks up its sleeve - the white koiogran turn means that if both parties fly straight at the other, then turn around and come back, the defender gets actions on the turn the two ships flip around, whilst it's opponent generally doesn't. That's a big advantage right there.

Finally, the TIE/x7 "assigns an evade token" - remember the difference between an evade action and just getting an evade token? You're stressed? Still get the evade. You bumped someone and don't finish your move? Still get the evade. You're doing a focus action? Still have the evade as well.

The TIE defender has its problems - whilst it rarely picks up stress it struggles to get rid of it again unless going in a straight line, and its pilots aren't PS9 like Talonbane Cobra or Soontir Fel, and most importantly you can only fit three in a squad, max, but it's fast, tough, and - as noted - fantastically tolerant of the green dice letting you down for a turn.

And in full lists combos like teroch + fenn rau have a decent shot to kill all 6 hp of a defender in a single turn. So yeah, they are pretty forgiving, but they are as well pretty predictable which might still lead to severe punishment.

I faced Mindlinked Fenn and Teroch backed up by Manaroo with Ryad, Vessery and OL and I still manged to kill them for only the loss of OL. I very quickly discovered that the trick is to avoid the Range 1 joust as that is where their bonuses all stack up. At Range 2, they are not nearly so scary. Avoid the predictable K-turns if you have to when fighting them in order to control range. These lists usually use Manaroo to maintain token efficiency when they K-Turn or T-Roll but even she can't let them Boost if they are Stressed. Trying to control the range against higher PS opponents is tricky but not impossible and becomes easier as soon as they Stress themselves.

I guess I just dont get palp and how his ability is so good change one dice just dont seem that great our am not understanding the card

Ok, I understand this. However, that one dice makes all the difference on certain ships. It is all about the guaranteed evade factor on valuable ships.

I am a Dash player, I have been a YT-2400 fanboy since the Shadows of the Empire N64 video game.

Dash (in the Outrider) has a 4 dice shot in that 360 degree donut. Which is awesome, 4 dice are fairly capable of hitting most naked ships at least once per turn. (Roughly speaking)

Now take a Soontir Fel. 3 evade dice naturally. Plus auto-thrusters gives him 1 guaranteed evade (against a turret), he can take an evade token which is another guaranteed evade, then you add Palpatine and that is 3 guaranteed evade dice! That is most ships firepower! Soontir Fel can get a guarantee evade against a single ship once per turn on most ships. Plus his focus and a stealth device makes him extremely hard to hit, even with 4+ dice, even when you out fly him, to get him in your arc.

With Dash you have to roll all 4 hits just to even have a chance of hitting a Soontir Fel supported by Palps. Even when you do get all 4 dice hitting, the chance he rolls one evade is pretty likely. (Not to mention Fel's awesome Arc Dodging ability that I am not even factoring in.)

That is just one example.

Palp list do have weaknesses, as you point out, it is only one dice. So the more ships the opponent has, the less effective Palps will be. But that one dice per-round on the average 100 point game is a much bigger factor than it sounds. Especially when used on evades.

(PS I am not complaining, since that is the nature of the game, I enjoy crafting list to take down the top meta.)

The most important thing about this is: It forces you in many situation to attack the shuttle first, and while the shuttle has an awful dial and a Palp shuttle is 29 points at least, it is 29 points for a 3 dice attack and 10 hp, meaning it usually is a decent enough damage sponge on top. So if you ignore the Palp shuttle you get punished not doing any damage to the palp aces and if you attack the Palp shuttle you get punished by giving it the ability to shoot at you usually at least once AND leave the aces free to roam and get behind you. The whole combination creates somewhat of a lose/lose situation.

Naturally there are counters to this, you can still blast with some lists past the palp and token stack defences and other lists deal way to much damage so the damage sponge becomes just a small obstacle, etc

But the innate strength of Palpatine and token stacks remain if when they are not overwhelmingly strong. And in the current meta they are currently indeed strong and save options. Defenders main problem is that everyone is bringing counters against them.

And in full lists combos like teroch + fenn rau have a decent shot to kill all 6 hp of a defender in a single turn. So yeah, they are pretty forgiving, but they are as well pretty predictable which might still lead to severe punishment.

I faced Mindlinked Fenn and Teroch backed up by Manaroo with Ryad, Vessery and OL and I still manged to kill them for only the loss of OL. I very quickly discovered that the trick is to avoid the Range 1 joust as that is where their bonuses all stack up. At Range 2, they are not nearly so scary. Avoid the predictable K-turns if you have to when fighting them in order to control range. These lists usually use Manaroo to maintain token efficiency when they K-Turn or T-Roll but even she can't let them Boost if they are Stressed. Trying to control the range against higher PS opponents is tricky but not impossible and becomes easier as soon as they Stress themselves.

Yeah, R2 is the way to deal with Fangs, they are strong as R3 and R1, naturally range control is super hard as the boost brings them 2 ship lengths forward and a barrel roll a half length backwards. So Range 2 is very hard to maintain. But certain defenders against fangs is not an auto-lose for the defenders, nor for the Fangs, but both lists die against each other rather quickly on a screwup.

Don't forget to charge your glowbelt.

And in full lists combos like teroch + fenn rau have a decent shot to kill all 6 hp of a defender in a single turn. So yeah, they are pretty forgiving, but they are as well pretty predictable which might still lead to severe punishment.

I faced Mindlinked Fenn and Teroch backed up by Manaroo with Ryad, Vessery and OL and I still manged to kill them for only the loss of OL. I very quickly discovered that the trick is to avoid the Range 1 joust as that is where their bonuses all stack up. At Range 2, they are not nearly so scary. Avoid the predictable K-turns if you have to when fighting them in order to control range. These lists usually use Manaroo to maintain token efficiency when they K-Turn or T-Roll but even she can't let them Boost if they are Stressed. Trying to control the range against higher PS opponents is tricky but not impossible and becomes easier as soon as they Stress themselves.

However,both Fenn and Teroch are ships with Boost and Barrel Roll that move after your whole list has moved. The Fangs player has more tools to get the engagement he wants than Defenders have tools to avoid it.

I've yet to be beaten by a Fang list with Defenders, particularly when using Ryad. Doing a long K-turn past them, possibly with a barrel roll e sure they can't easily get me in arc at range one. I did almost get one spotted once, but after that shot he didn't get another hit on me and died quickly.