As per title.

If the game wants to be competitive it cannot be without judges I think.

There's something planned?

They need to have a tighter set of rules before they can worry about judges.

Well as known they are near to start the competitive things so I don't think that you can run competitive tournaments without someone "super partes" that can resolve doubts

Well as known they are near to start the competitive things so I don't think that you can run competitive tournaments without someone "super partes" that can resolve doubts

Are there judges for the store championships? Never seen them!

The normal behavior that the store owner is the judge is not a good idea if you want to play competitive. They're good if you want to run normal store tournaments but at the point that those tournaments will qualify to bigger ones you need a judge figure. It happened in any card game that wants to start a competitive circuit. Unless FF wants only run store tournaments but I doubt it.

The game is so new I am eager to see how FFG evolves the competitive scene. The demand for the product is unquestionable. The interest in competitive play is also very likely there as well, but developing trustworthy judges is going to take some time. I completely agree that it can't be store owners. One, it's not their primary concern when they're working and two, there's plenty of people who will question the perception of fairness if owners are ruling in favor of those who spend more on product at the store or are regulars vs. out of towners.

I don't see FFG having an issue doing it, but HOW they go about it will be interesting to watch given that this is a totally new endeavor that has both cards and dice and a new product line that appeals to an incredibly broad age range and gamer type. Exciting stuff for certain!

I disagree.

They're near to release the tournament rules and a competitive circuit is a booster seller. If players perceive that no one can tutelate them in a competitive environment the interest can decrease fast. I'm a judge of another trading card game and I know some "mechanics" of this kind.

By the way maybe they're think about just by now and we dunno hehe

How can you have qualified judges without having competitive play experience?

Maybe not quite a cart before the horse, but definitely a chicken / egg question!

In effect, how can you have qualified judges without competitive play, but how can you have competitive play without qualified judges.

That's why my point was that this will be an interesting case study to see how FFG rolls it out because those judges are going to need some competitive play experience up front.

One approach, that I kind of like, would be that stores nominate judges based on their regular "Destiny Game Night" players who express interest. In exchange, FFG sets up a "qualification test" online that those judges must pass and be endorsed by at least one local store owner. With both of those things in place, they can be official judges for competitive play events. In exchange, from FFG, they lavish these early judges with exclusive product to entice people who are stoked for competitive play to forego playing to be judges so they don't feel like they're walking away empty handed in an area that might only feature one venue where competitive play happens.

This can be a great idea on how to start

Speaking as a TO / Judge for the X-Wing circuit, I suspect they'll go down a similar route.

Volunteers who play the game and know the rules laid out by FFG (Once they come out - I'm still waiting on these) and can enforce them.

As a judge you're expected to not be playing, so you're usually compensated with some spare swag from the tournament kits, though this is at the TO's discretion. I've run enough X-Wing tournaments, that I have most anything they already have to offer - I usually just add it to the prize pool.

We've been doing this for years now in the X-Wing arena (And I suspect the same can be said in their other LCG arena's), and I don't see any reason for this to be different with Destiny.

At the more established tier (Regionals / Nationals / Worlds), I believe those are paid gigs, but I suspect the judges would be compensated with some of the prize swag as well.

Judging for ANR has been similar. I'very judge store championships, but aside from the Floor Rules there is no officialy licensed judges.

At worlds the judges got paid and also got swag. However, aside from the Marshall and head TO, most judges week just volunteers.

Unlike MtG FFG does not have any judge program or licensed judges.

I'm a Magic Judge and there's not a licensed judge figure. There is an independent judge program that collaborate with Wizards of the Coast. I think that this method can be appliable in this area

I'm a Magic Judge and there's not a licensed judge figure. There is an independent judge program that collaborate with Wizards of the Coast. I think that this method can be appliable in this area

If these are the same independent judges that brought a lawsuit against WoTC about being employees, then I would be very surprised if FFG elects to go down the same route.

As an x-wing TO, no regionals are not paid.

It's up to the community base to police their own. It works well enough. Atlanta has really impartial judges.

No the opposite.

The organization is indipendent especially because of this )

WoTC support the Judges but they're indipendent and talk with TO directly

No the opposite.

The organization is indipendent especially because of this )

WoTC support the Judges but they're indipendent and talk with TO directly

Wizards was sued in April by a number of their MtG Judges with those Judges alleging that their relationship with Wizards is not consistent with that of an independent contractor but an employee-employer relationship.

Wizards administers the tests, your certification is from Wizards, and Wizards has the ability to suspend or terminate your status as a Judge for violations of their rules; even if those violations don't pertain to being a Judge.

Wizards says you are independent contractors, and they may still get to do that legally speaking, but MtG Judges are very much beholden to Wizards in very direct ways.

I'm not sure you are understanding the other posters point.

Wizards was sued in April by a number of their MtG Judges with those Judges alleging that their relationship with Wizards is not consistent with that of an independent contractor but an employee-employer relationship.

Wizards administers the tests, your certification is from Wizards, and Wizards has the ability to suspend or terminate your status as a Judge for violations of their rules; even if those violations don't pertain to being a Judge.

Wizards says you are independent contractors, and they may still get to do that legally speaking, but MtG Judges are very much beholden to Wizards in very direct ways.

Yep - this.

FFG have a history of creating a very successful and competitive environment, policed by it's own members with out having to resort to a "Qualification System" (That's not to say that there aren't some of us in the community - myself included - that wouldn't mind seeing some more official documents from FFG OP, especially in the realm of Floor Rules for X-Wing.)

Having a pool a volunteer judges, usually players who know the rules, have played competitively themselves and want to see the game they enjoy playing grow, has been working for them quite well so far.

One thing I keep seeing come up across various platforms (reddit / Facebook / forums) is the same string arguing that if "Destiny doesn't do this (because MtG does) then it's dead to me / in the water / useless". I've already left a Facebook group because of the level of toxicity MtG players were bringing to the group over cash prizes at tournaments (something that will NOT be happening anywhere in the near future)

I think people need to accept the Destiny is NOT MtG - I'm not saying there aren't lessons to be learned from the big boy on the block, but it might be worth considering that Destiny doesn't want to be MtG and all that brings with it.

No the opposite.

The organization is indipendent especially because of this )

WoTC support the Judges but they're indipendent and talk with TO directly

I'm not sure you are understanding the other posters point.

What you talk about April is an old controversy that happened more than 1 year ago and that is still ongoing due to laws timing.

What I'm saying is if SWD will become more popular and tournament starts to have hundreds of players with amazing prizes (not necessarily money) you cannot expect that people accept a rule just because "I know the rules" quote.

If until now FF was able to handle competitive tournaments with only volunteers and "people that know rules" as judges is (also) because all tournaments have a "small" dimensions and the prizes are "normals".

Maybe FF doesn't want to leave that dimension but I don't think that a company that have the purpose of gaining money will be upset if thousand people wants to attend a tournament.

X-Wing is not comparable because it's not a trading card game that have the capability to gather much more people.

I'm not saying that not having judges certified is wrong, I'm saying that it the game will go to a big dimension is not possible to handle it without some specialized people.

Having a organization of judges that COLLABORATE with FF is a great way to handle. Is enough to set up terms at the beginning also using others experience.

By the way if Magic have Judges, Yu-Gi-Oh have judges, Force of Will have judges... I don't think that all of them can be wrong. By the way is a proposal

An ongoing court case that may completely alter how Wizards, and by extension everyone else, has to handle their Judges is not in anyway an "old controversy". It's an outstanding issue that will heavily influence how FFG would have to implement such a program. FFG may very well be waiting for a ruling to come down in regards to that suit before implementing a program that could be completely upended if the courts rule that MtG Judges are employees and not Independent Contractors, and that very well might happen.

You keep saying you're an MtG Judge, and as such we should trust you on the subject, but you've made a number of posts that do not garner confidence that you fully understand your own relationship with Wizards. They do certify your status and level and they have the ability to suspend you, that TOs have to negotiate compensation with you directly instead of through Wizards doesn't mean you're really independent.

Buy I whole heartedly agree that FFG needs some sort of program to ensure events are ran consistent with policy. The weakest point of their Organized Play program is the lack of floor rules and consistent adjudication of their rules in general. You travel to a Regional or SC, and you have no guarantee that the people running the event know what they are doing. It's more of a problem with the smaller games then the larger ones, but is absolutely an issue overall. You don't know event to event how certain issues of player ettiquite will be handled because there are no clear guidelines on the subject to begin with and no system in place to ensure those running the event know those guidelines.

This will be especially true of Destiny in its first SC and Regional season. Stores will get events that have no business running events.

An ongoing court case that may completely alter how Wizards, and by extension everyone else, has to handle their Judges is not in anyway an "old controversy". It's an outstanding issue that will heavily influence how FFG would have to implement such a program. FFG may very well be waiting for a ruling to come down in regards to that suit before implementing a program that could be completely upended if the courts rule that MtG Judges are employees and not Independent Contractors, and that very well might happen.

Exactly this - Why would FFG invest time and money into a qualification system that could be upended by an ongoing court ruling?

Buy I whole heartedly agree that FFG needs some sort of program to ensure events are ran consistent with policy. The weakest point of their Organized Play program is the lack of floor rules and consistent adjudication of their rules in general. You travel to a Regional or SC, and you have no guarantee that the people running the event know what they are doing. It's more of a problem with the smaller games then the larger ones, but is absolutely an issue overall. You don't know event to event how certain issues of player ettiquite will be handled because there are no clear guidelines on the subject to begin with and no system in place to ensure those running the event know those guidelines.

A few of us in the X-Wing TO circle have been pushing for floor rules for some time now - at the moment, it's self-policed relatively well, though by no means consistently. Stores that have been found out to be "inconsistent" in their rulings aren't usually given the option to run a prestige event again (Store / Regionals), but it's not consistent across the globe and it doesn't stop them from running seasonal events.

For what it's worth - There's a TO / Judge Facebook group that's been created where we can come together and confirm our doubts on timings / effects etc. It also provides us a space to collate data to present to OP and has had a direct impact on FAQ's in the past.

But yes. Proper floor rules from FFG would be great. I think we just need to consider that while we might think there's a massive team behind OP, it also might just be a team of 5 trying to run 8-9 very popular systems.

If that's the case, that's a whole other issue.

Exactly this - Why would FFG invest time and money into a qualification system that could be upended by an ongoing court ruling?

Because having a qualification system lead to a trustworthy environment specially in big large tournaments with big prizes (or small that qualify for big ones).

About the controversy I said that it's old because wast not born recently (ok is still ongoing but due to procedural timings) and at the moment the WoTC and Judge program had set up the structure following that.

I'm aware of relationship between WoTC and Magic Judges and if you want we can discuss in pm because I feel that this can be OT here.

What I see is that all of you agree on a need to have something official but you says that all can be done with a bunch of amateurs that handle this.

This is true if the dimension of OP remains what is now but I think that SWD can reach a very large dimension and in this case saying to a player on a regional/national tournament that he's wrong because in a Facebook group some experienced people says that this is wrong is not working.

Buy I whole heartedly agree that FFG needs some sort of program to ensure events are ran consistent with policy. The weakest point of their Organized Play program is the lack of floor rules and consistent adjudication of their rules in general. You travel to a Regional or SC, and you have no guarantee that the people running the event know what they are doing. It's more of a problem with the smaller games then the larger ones, but is absolutely an issue overall.

But yes. Proper floor rules from FFG would be great. I think we just need to consider that while we might think there's a massive team behind OP, it also might just be a team of 5 trying to run 8-9 very popular systems.

If that's the case, that's a whole other issue.

That's what I say

WizKids used to have a judge system that I was part of that worked out very well. Judges were attached to specific stores and could only run one store. They had to complete a rules questionnaire, which improved over time to at least force judges to have some working knowledge on the game going forward. This allowed for smart judges who also weren't monopolizing prize support.

The level of judge reward was also based on attendance, so judges were proactive in promoting the game to get more players to get better prizes.

Of course I want Destiny to be popular, but jeez, if this is what it's going to be like, I'm suddenly much less interested in future events.

Speaking as someone who does the judging for X-wing on a fairly regular basis - We got this. Stop complicating it. X-Wing draws several hundred people to any larger event, and they still get run just fine. The FAQ covers any issues, and anything the FAQ doesn't cover is handled in the most common sense way possible, while keeping in mind that FFG and OP write in conversational English, and as such, usually the most common sense and least amount of twisting is what was intended.