it's smart to make good habbits.

I agree, and that's what I find so odd around here. How often you see people so militantly opposed to doing exactly that.

Does anyone actually think moving 6 ties and then taking actions for them all is actually something that should be encouraged? Why do some people find it so offensive to be expected to play correctly?

I mean I get why people use shortcuts from time to time, and I don't have a huge issue with it. But when at my LGS we all try to avoid sloppy play as much as possible, even if it takes an extra second.

Does anyone actually think moving 6 ties and then taking actions for them all is actually something that should be encouraged? Why do some people find it so offensive to be expected to play correctly?

Well it's a balance between accuracy and tedium. Using the TIE example: the first two turns I value the lack of tedium higher, after that the accuracy.

Lightweight frame is different than that example as it's always going to be more tedious as there's no inaccuracy.

(though, fwiw, I agree that you should always narrate the number of dice you're rolling for your opponent every single time. It's a really useful habit for a great number of reasons.)

Well it's a balance between accuracy and tedium.

That's a good point, and it's not like there's never a case for using a shortcut or two... As long as people realize it's a shortcut, and may cause issues.

Moving all your ties at once in the first two rounds... Sure it's not like that's going to cause issues.

Or for me, if someone rolls three evade dice and gets three <evade> results, only to realize that they should of only rolled two... RAW they should reroll but I think since removing one of them has zero impact just remove one.

Lightweight frame is different than that example as it's always going to be more tedious as there's no inaccuracy.

Well that's my point though, it may not always be that way. There may be and to be honest I think it's likely there will be cases where it can cause an inaccuracy. When that happens everyone has to start doing it differently.

(though, fwiw, I agree that you should always narrate the number of dice you're rolling for your opponent every single time.)

I agree, I think you should always let people know what you're doing, you'll avoid so many possible issues that way, and it only takes a moment to do it.

So what I'm learning after reading what's in this thread so far is that I can't trust the Judges of X-Wing tournaments (at least at the local level) because I may have no idea if they're going to make rulings from RAW or RAI. So the best thing I can do is just read my cards and follow what they say to avoid having a judge called over at all.

is that I can't trust the Judges of X-Wing tournaments (at least at the local level) because I may have no idea if they're going to make rulings from RAW or RAI.

That's a risk you take if you don't know the TO, yes. Part of the issue is judges will often have to make a ruling based on RAI when RAW isn't clear, and they have to be able to do so.

But some apparently feel it's ok to throw RAW out even when the RAW is clear. The problem IMO is that some people are ok with this, because they agree with the Judges concept of RAI.

is that I can't trust the Judges of X-Wing tournaments (at least at the local level) because I may have no idea if they're going to make rulings from RAW or RAI.

That's a risk you take if you don't know the TO, yes. Part of the issue is judges will often have to make a ruling based on RAI when RAW isn't clear, and they have to be able to do so.

But some apparently feel it's ok to throw RAW out even when the RAW is clear. The problem IMO is that some people are ok with this, because they agree with the Judges concept of RAI.

I've only been to a handful of tournaments, but aren't there Marshals that are there to make the final ruling if players think the judges are wrong? Or are those reserved only for the large tournaments?

I've only been to a handful of tournaments, but aren't there Marshals that are there to make the final ruling if players think the judges are wrong?

First off, I think I may of come off sounding a bit like a fearmonger and that's not my intention.

I'd dare say you could go to 100 different tournaments and expect 95 or more of them to run things the same way regarding the rules. You may find some that don't but that will be the exception.

As far as Marshals go... That's going to depend on the resources the TO has. Most stores are unlikely to have enough people show up that they can have a TO, a Marshal and a Judge or two. Most places the TO is also the Marshal/Judge.

My personal rule:

Don't even touch dice unless you are about to roll them. Wait for the attacker to roll and modify before even picking up anything.

Saves mistakes, and by keeping it ingrained in your head, and playing a certain way every way takes a lot less mental space as well.

If you roll your defense dice plus the die you know that you are going to get to roll from Lightweight Frame at the same time then you've rolled too many dice. Per the rules, you'll need to ignore the results and reroll the correct number of dice.

It's entirely possible that an opponent will allow you to roll all the dice at once without comment all game long until you have a very good roll at a critical time.

I remember a discussion I had here about the activation sequence. Strictly, you're not allowed to first move a bunch of academy pilots and then give them all focus tokens, but I've seen the best players do it. At the right moment, the opponent can say 'hey, he cannot do an action because another ship already activated.'

Of course, there's a good chance that a judge will rule that the action can be taken, but I'm not sure if that is something one should count on. X-Wing has more than a few of those 'gotcha' opportunities.

As of the latest Tournament Regulations (p.4), physical Focus tokens are defined as "indicators". The Focus token that a ship gets from performing the Focus action is not the cardboard piece you put down, it's actually intangible.

Its presence is marked by the physical Focus token, but strictly speaking these indicators are not considered essential components.

So as long as you say that a ship does a Focus action, it gets the token, whether or not the indicator is present. As far as I can tell, you're then at your own liberty to put the indicator down (or not).

Actually, I believe the TIE Swarm example is no longer true.

Normally the tie swarm example means people move 2+ ships and then declare their actions. I don't think anyone would have an issue or grounds to complain if someone declared their action after moving the ship but waited until after moving other same PS ships to put out the tokens. So in way the rule simply represents what everyone already did.

As of the latest Tournament Regulations (p.4), physical Focus tokens are defined as "indicators".

That's interesting and I must've glossed over it. Thanks for pointing it out.

As far as I can tell, you're then at your own liberty to put the indicator down (or not).

I think you still have to put some sort of token down, it just doesn't have to be a cardboard or FFG acrylic focus token. I don't see anything in the rules that say the use of tokens is optional, just that you don't have to use a focus token.

However, players may choose to use other items as indicators, so long as they do not obscure significant component information, are resistant to accidental modification, and their purpose of use is clear to both players.

I don't see anything in there suggesting that a physical memory device is optional.

*moves TIE*

"he does focus, is it OK if I place all of them together later?"

"sure, go ahead!"

*moves another TIE*

"focus"

*moves another TIE*

"the others focus, too"

*moves other TIEs*

*places focus tokens*

Never had a problem like that. If my opponent wants to insist, he has to do so early and before I take any damage from the missed opportunity.

Once things get rough, formations are prone to breaking anyway, and not all the ships want to do the same action any more. Then I think it's necessary to do the by-the-rules *move* *action* *move* *action* bit. Also when you start barrel rolling, because repositioning can affect the actions of followup ships. Maybe they'll even bump.

As a TO I would politely tell people to grov up and accept the initial roll.

3=2+1

It makes no difference apart from speeding the game up

And I am absolutely sure that there is at least one TO which ruled a whole tourney unfair to help their friends, just because it happens sometimes, does not make it any not far fetched as an argument.

If it happens, and you know it happens, and you don't know the TO in question, then it's not really that far fetched. If you have a TO who will DQ someone for playing RAW then very little is far fetched.

Edit: I guess my point is, I'd rather play with a TO that adheres to the RAW because then everyone knows what to expect. When they start using RAI especially when it is directly contrary to the RAW you never know what you'll get and people who aren't part of that local community are likely to find stuff doesn't work like they think it should.

I know what you mean, I just prefer some common sense, fair play (which is a requirement by the rules!) and a good atmosphere are more important than following the rules to the letter. Which is a little ironic with my signature.

And btw, I know have known people who walked into rooms, doused themselves with gasoline and set themselves alight as form of political protest. Now these days it seems more common to light others on fire, but either way … expecting something like this would still be even more far fetched.

And your assumption that everyone knows what to expect when you stick to the raw … is disproven by about 1,000 pages of rules discussion and dozens of faq pages and on top of tournament reality. And actually even this topic, as plenty of people seem to rather sure that their TO would not accept nitpicking to this degree.

Though the discussion seems to go into areas I never intended, as you should have as well trust have in your TO to know the rules and base their judgment on it. Bringing a copy of the latest FAQ is still usually a good idea, nobody remembers everything, especially in long tournaments when people get really tired on top of it.

As soon as Sabine steals a TIE Bomber and gives it the title, Lightweight Frame, and C-3PO ...

Time for all of us to take a road trip to Singapore and protest the makers of Rebels until they make this a thing. Also, Sabine needs to get into a Van Gogh phase so we can have a TIE Bomber colored in yellow sun flowers.

"Why yes, I did just beat you with my rebel TIE bomber covered in yellow flowers".

Some of the rules lawyers here need to re-read page 3 of the Tournament Regulations rulebook, specifically the section on "Unsporting Conduct" specifially the part about "...play by the rules and not abuse them." (emphasis mine)

You may trick someone into re-rolling a good defense once; you also may get yourself thrown out at the discretion of the TO.

In a casual game, you'll more likely just get told to go eff yourself and have to find a new opponent to play against (if not banned from the FLGS).

Don't be a ****** canoe.

Edit:

A good sportsmanship way to resolve this for those players that would like players using LF to roll the dice separate would be the following:

You notice your opponent roll 3 defense dice instead of 2 defense dice then 1 afterwards.

"Hey, I just noticed that you rolled the Lightweight Frame defense die at the same time with the others; from here on out, can you roll them separate? 
I appreciate keeping everything by-the-book as it helps me keep track of the game state."

Not....whatever the hell you guys thought it was you were doing when you are trying to force a re-roll at the point of your choosing.

Wait what...?

Unless being total jerk just for being jerk, what is the difference if you roll 3 dice at once or 2 then 1 in this case? Did i miss any interaction? All mods happen after, this wording is strictly there for not abusing range 3...

If anyone would make me reroll "framed" roll just cause i didn't roll 2+1 i would tell him to fk himself, period.

I get that, it's just that the rules allow for some exploitation. The question is not about what is the right thing to do or who is a jerk (I think we agree that is fairly obvious, although I would use the term 'WAAC player' rather than 'jerk'), but how to prevent the situation in the first place.

And how to resolve it. 'Go [whatever] yourself' is not a solution.

Yea well this scenario thrown me off balance a little as we can see

Well is there really any resolution that makes sense?

You both are right:

- demanding to reroll such a roll is correct by the rules

- demanding to let it stay is correct by sportsmanship and common sense.

In a casual - i would tell the opponent what part of male anatomy i would compare him to and pack the bags (ofc only if someone insisted - simply saying: "could you roll 2+1 not 3 next time, please" would be perfectly ok.)

In tournament - call the TO to judge. Most TOs i know would rule it to be ok as far as i know them if that was really only matter of 3vs2+1.

There is no reroll by the rules. If someone wants to argue the letter of the law on an action that has no impact they still can't in this issue. The rules do not denote what causes "after" to happen. Normally it is defined as the phase ending or some other resolution but this is after within the same step so there is no "you must wait X seconds" or "you must make two distinct actions" before rolling the extra die. Therefore, the last die to hit is just as after as making a secondary gesture to pick up and roll a die by itself. They both meet the same "after" requirement.

You rolled the dice at the same time. There is no way to identify which die was the extra die from Lightweight Frame.

5 pages and still not a single example WHY THIS SHOULD BE RELLEVANT BY ANY WAY.

Its like debating should i add sugar to tea or can the sugar already be there when i pour the water into a mug cause on tea box its written that you should add sugar to the tea....

Plus btw fellas. If your TO does not care about creating fun enviroment...i pity you. Agreeing with some rules lawyer that tries to frakk up your game is not fun eviroment.

Plus geez use some common sense for god's sake: Rolling. 3. Dice. At. The. Same. Time. Does. Not. Change. A. Thing.

Not in a current state of the game.

You all went to law college or what ?

Every TO i know has told me if someone tries that in their tournaments (and they always make it known what shenanigans they wont put up with) theyre getting DQ'd because that is CLEARLY not intended, even if RAW it works.

DQing people for doing exactly what the rules say to do because you don't agree with the rules seems to me to be much worse than making sure that the rules are applied even when it might be distasteful.

It's an important distinction because of the timing it creates. Say you're at R3 of a 3 dice attack with LF; it won't trigger because your range bonus bumps you to 3 dice, matching the attack. However, if the attacker was a Rey Falcon with Finn, or a Norra with a target lock, both of those attacks add a die result after the roll, which totals the attack dice to 4, meaning LF will trigger at R3 again. In that case, the attacker basically has to make a call on whether to spend the ability to add a die and trigger LF, or save it for later use (on defence, for example).

All of this happens before the defender even touches his dice. When rolling defense dice the defender has full information about the attack roll, since the "modify attack dice" step is over.

So what difference does it make how the dice are rolled, if the number of dice rolled is correct?

It's an important distinction because of the timing it creates. Say you're at R3 of a 3 dice attack with LF; it won't trigger because your range bonus bumps you to 3 dice, matching the attack. However, if the attacker was a Rey Falcon with Finn, or a Norra with a target lock, both of those attacks add a die result after the roll, which totals the attack dice to 4, meaning LF will trigger at R3 again. In that case, the attacker basically has to make a call on whether to spend the ability to add a die and trigger LF, or save it for later use (on defence, for example).

All of this happens before the defender even touches his dice. When rolling defense dice the defender has full information about the attack roll, since the "modify attack dice" step is over.

So what difference does it make how the dice are rolled, if the number of dice rolled is correct?

None. But them's the rules, and rules are rules.

Now, I fully endorse the 'TOs should implement RAW and nothing else' mantra. But I'm 100% happy to make an exception in a case like this. If the situation happened thus:

"Oh, you need to re-roll your green dice, you didn't roll the Lightweight Frame dice after the others"

"What? I've been rolling it like this all game! You're just making me re-roll it now because I evaded your attack"

"The rules state that you have to roll it after. As it stands you've rolled too many dice, and you have to re-roll them"

Then I fully support the TO ruling in favour of the Lightweight Frame player, not forcing them to re-roll, giving the opposing player a stern talking to about his behaviour, while advising the Lightweight Frame player to please adhere to the rules from this point on.

And at the same time, I'd want the TO to crack down on a player who is routinely rolling the three dice together, with the intention of claiming at some point in the game that he's rolled too many dice and must re-roll his defence dice after he blanks a roll and wants a re-roll. No, you've been playing it this way all game, the dice you rolled stand. And from now on, you will be rolling according to the card.

That's the real problem here. The distinction itself is utterly pointless, but it allows players to 'forget' that distinction until they can benefit from a re-roll, and that's how players with the best of intentions can fall foul of the Win At Any Cost vipers.

That's the real problem here. The distinction itself is utterly pointless, but it allows players to 'forget' that distinction until they can benefit from a re-roll, and that's how players with the best of intentions can fall foul of the Win At Any Cost vipers.

"Forgetting" about it until crucial moment is a same as cheating if it is frame user forgetting.

That's the real problem here. The distinction itself is utterly pointless, but it allows players to 'forget' that distinction until they can benefit from a re-roll, and that's how players with the best of intentions can fall foul of the Win At Any Cost vipers.

"Forgetting" about it until crucial moment is a same as cheating if it is frame user forgetting.

Maybe, but more importantly it's impossible to detect or enforce selective memory like that.

That's the real problem here. The distinction itself is utterly pointless, but it allows players to 'forget' that distinction until they can benefit from a re-roll, and that's how players with the best of intentions can fall foul of the Win At Any Cost vipers.

"Forgetting" about it until crucial moment is a same as cheating if it is frame user forgetting.

Maybe, but more importantly it's impossible to detect or enforce selective memory like that.

And yet i still fail to grasp a reason to permit such a reroll from either side. Its ok roll - trying to reroll by either side is plain abusing the situation and should not be permitted.

No selective memory issue here - roll stays. TO or either player may demand to roll 2+1 from now on but what is rolled before that demand should stay. Period.

The real question is who thinks LWF is worth 2 points

The real question is who thinks LWF is worth 2 points

FFG, apparently

The real question is who thinks LWF is worth 2 points

2 points for a near-permanent extra agility dice vs 3 points for an extra agility dice that disappears the second I get hit? Seems like a good deal to me.

Edit: Stealth device costs 3, not 4. LF is still worth it to me.