I was looking at the armor and hilt crafting rules and they have uses for rolled despairs but as written there are no ways to upgrade the checks so there is no chance to roll any.

Are GMs expected to be flipping destiny on craft checks? Is there something I am missing?

Either GM dp flip or a very unique material that is hard to craft with.

GMs should be flipping regularly. There's almost always a decent reason. But you don't have to flip a DP if you have introduced another complication, say a Despair on a previous roll to get the materials.

As per Page 28 of the Force and Destiny core:

In some cases the GM may upgrade one or more of these Difficulty dice by removing them from the dice pool and replacing them with an equal number of Challenge dice. Difficulty dice are usually upgraded to Challenge dice when a character faces skilled opposition or particularly challenging circumstances, or when the GM invests Destiny Points to make a check more challenging.

That basically means the GM can ALWAYS choose to replace purple dice with red dice in a check if there is an inherent danger to what the character is attempting, even without spending Destiny points. Essentially any task can be treated as though it has levels of Adversary based on how dangerous the task is.

For example, rolling a streetwise check to inquire about where to buy a lightsaber crystal should be rolling challenge dice instead of just difficulty dice, because asking about them isn't just difficult, it's dangerous.

Or as another example: Walking on a tight rope with a net underneath, hard coordination check with purples. Walking on a tight rope without a net underneath, hard coordination check with one red. Walking on a tight rope that's on fire over an open reactor shaft for the amusement of a Hutt, hard coordination check with all reds. The difficulty of the task technically never goes up, but the danger of it does.

Likewise a crafting check can get automatic upgrades if you're doing it under circumstances that don't really make the crafting harder, but that increase the danger of creating a faulty item, like you're using unknown scavenged parts and materials and have no idea if they will perform as you thought, even if you build the item perfectly, or you're tinkering with your pod-racer in an open garage where competitors could sabotage your work.

The GM should also freely spend destiny points to upgrade dice in situations that aren't inherently dangerous, though if a player scrapes together the thousands of credits it takes to build their dream item it's probably bad form to upgrade them just to get a chance to ruin the result.

I could also see an upgrade if the crafter is working with something dangerous - making thermal detonators or something. Something where a catastrophic failure makes sense.

Yea, inherently dangerous materials also make sense for adding challenge dice.

Yeah, the difficulties listed are just the baseline. The GM can increase or upgrade them if the situation calls for it. D-point flipping is just the most player-friendly way of injecting red dice, not the only way.

Well, flipping DPs is what generates red dice when the GM wants to make a situation dangerous. Automatic upgrades are what generates red dice when a situation is always dangerous. So it's not necessarily the most player friendly way. Yes, it gives them light side destiny points, but it also means a check that wouldn't have been dangerous just became dangerous.

I am just struggling in this case with the armor, and especially the hilts to justify non DP upgrades given that hilts are described as basic mechanical objects that can be crafted with simple common components. Also I do not expect them to be rushing or in a dangerous environment while crafting.

Especially since when the PCs get the option everyone will want to make one, and then I'd be showing favoritism to pick only a few of them to flip DPs on.

Also I do not expect them to be rushing or in a dangerous environment while crafting.

That's no fun

Also I do not expect them to be rushing or in a dangerous environment while crafting.

What kind of boring MMO-inspired galaxy are your player characters living in?

I mean, yeah, some crafting will take place during down-time, but if the players aren't also cobbling a combat airspeeder together out of available parts while the empire's bearing down on them they're missing out. That's the point of all the negative effects you can get while crafting, because you can't just always have the luxury of throwing the "bad" ones int eh garbage until you actually get what you want.

I am just struggling in this case with the armor, and especially the hilts to justify non DP upgrades given that hilts are described as basic mechanical objects that can be crafted with simple common components. Also I do not expect them to be rushing or in a dangerous environment while crafting.

Especially since when the PCs get the option everyone will want to make one, and then I'd be showing favoritism to pick only a few of them to flip DPs on.

Think of it more as a means for the GM to control when the players craft than a way to make them craft bad items. You also don't have to spend any Despairs and Threats rolled in the most destructive possible way. You can always rule that a Despair is an injury sustained while crafting the item and make the player suffer a crit instead of messing up the item for example, or you can spend a Depair to give the item a relatively minor flaw, or one of the flaws that only create a one time issue.

For the most part crafted items don't need significant flaws to be balanced. There is a a reason why the books give you the option of just giving the user 3 strain instead of giving the item a permanent downside. You should invoke the flaws primarily when you feel like the item being created is a bit out of hand, or when players abuse the crafting rules, like if someone decides rolling 10 average checks on Reinforced Clothing at 25 credits a pop and hoping for a roll that adds a an extra soak and +1 melee/ranged defense instead of ponying up the 2500 credits to try the hard check of segmented armor you don't have to feel bad to smack the result with a drastic flaw.

I like the hilt chart because it makes interesting choices about using the advantaged but flawed weapon, but I can always fiat it up one or two if need be. I might even rule that threat and advantages don't cancel on this roll.

I thought during crafting rolls advantages and threats never cancel, though I can't find any specific place in the rules where it states that right now, that just seemed like the sensible way to handle the system.

I thought during crafting rolls advantages and threats never cancel, though I can't find any specific place in the rules where it states that right now, that just seemed like the sensible way to handle the system.

That's definitely not the default way of doing things, although a talent that gave the option to accrue threat instead of it cancelling out advantage would lead to some crazy powerful, pretty whacky Mad Science devices, I would think. Finely crafted Blasters with both Accurate and Innacurate for extra swingy rolls, a Lightsaber Forge that produces peerless lightsabers and also random electrical fires. That sort of thing.

Yea, I've always played it that way because it just makes more sense. If you cancel threats and advantages on crafting rolls any item that rolled net threats is basically garbage and unusable, while highly modded items don't come with any flaws to balance them out.

I'll have to ask the person that told me about this where they got the rule from, I didn't check into it because it just seemed like it made sense that hand-made items can have advantages and disadvantages at the same time.

I am just struggling in this case with the armor, and especially the hilts to justify non DP upgrades given that hilts are described as basic mechanical objects that can be crafted with simple common components.

A lightsaber has the most compact and powerful energy source in the galaxy.

What makes you think that wouldn’t be dangerous if there were to be some sort of unfortunate error made in construction?

The lightsaber crafting rules do specifically include a result for the whole thing blowing up in your face.

reading the crafting rules it clearly states that the player first chooses how to spend his advantages and triumphs and then the GM does the same with his threats and despairs. As Aetrion said it's obvious that an item with only disadvantages, unless the crafting process is capped via the story (you can craft only once and therefore what you get is what you have) will be very quickly discarded for another try which beats the point i think.

The bad things actually make it really interesting and can give more personality to your items and in turn your character.

So that's how me and my GM are going to play this out, boons and curses be damned !

reading the crafting rules it clearly states that the player first chooses how to spend his advantages and triumphs and then the GM does the same with his threats and despairs. As Aetrion said it's obvious that an item with only disadvantages, unless the crafting process is capped via the story (you can craft only once and therefore what you get is what you have) will be very quickly discarded for another try which beats the point i think.

The bad things actually make it really interesting and can give more personality to your items and in turn your character.

So that's how me and my GM are going to play this out, boons and curses be damned !

I have to disagree with this assessment. The costs involved in gathering the materials are high enough that simply discarding an otherwise successfully constructed item because of some (possibly) minor flaw is unlikely. Yes, the character is likely to try and make a better one some time down the line, but he or she is not likely to simply scrap it; not unless that character has unlimited resources to waste.

reading the crafting rules it clearly states that the player first chooses how to spend his advantages and triumphs and then the GM does the same with his threats and despairs. As Aetrion said it's obvious that an item with only disadvantages, unless the crafting process is capped via the story (you can craft only once and therefore what you get is what you have) will be very quickly discarded for another try which beats the point i think.

The bad things actually make it really interesting and can give more personality to your items and in turn your character.

So that's how me and my GM are going to play this out, boons and curses be damned !

Yea, I think that's the interpretation of the rules that got my tables doing crafting that way as well, it does say the player spends the advantages and the GM spends the threats, though it doesn't explicitly say that those don't cancel out anywhere.

An powerful item with some flaws is interesting, while a flawed standard item is simply garbage, so I prefer the reading of the rules that makes interesting items.

reading the crafting rules it clearly states that the player first chooses how to spend his advantages and triumphs and then the GM does the same with his threats and despairs. As Aetrion said it's obvious that an item with only disadvantages, unless the crafting process is capped via the story (you can craft only once and therefore what you get is what you have) will be very quickly discarded for another try which beats the point i think.

The bad things actually make it really interesting and can give more personality to your items and in turn your character.

So that's how me and my GM are going to play this out, boons and curses be damned !

I have to disagree with this assessment. The costs involved in gathering the materials are high enough that simply discarding an otherwise successfully constructed item because of some (possibly) minor flaw is unlikely. Yes, the character is likely to try and make a better one some time down the line, but he or she is not likely to simply scrap it; not unless that character has unlimited resources to waste.

A lightsaber hilt costs 300 credits, which is not much at all compared to virtually any other weapon.

300 credits is not exactly small change. It's still a lot of money. If we were talking 20-30 credits, then you could make that argument, but when you're talking triple digit expenditures, it's not so simple a matter.

A lightsaber hilt costs 300 credits, which is not much at all compared to virtually any other weapon.

It's a bit weird with Lightsabers, because the crystals cost around 5000-20000 credits and make up the largest portion of the lightsaber's cost.

Also if you play a strict Force and Destiny game it's very hard to come by large sums of money unless you're selling all the Holocrons you find.