Everything about the Phantoms is way too good here.

Could you go into detail about what is "way too good" and maybe a change?

I don't know what to tell you that hasn't been echoed here already. These are too strong, and that's not bias against the Phantom, its not wanting to see a ship even "arguably" as good as the Defender that can be 4 times as many places.

Can you show with your own words why certain parts are "too strong" because people are, to me and at least one other person, either overestimating ability or underestimating cost +action economy. Even something as simple as rephrasing what has been echoed could shed new light to the situation.

Here is a short video explaining the problem.

http://randolphw.github.io/echolocation/

Everything about the Phantoms is way too good here.

Could you go into detail about what is "way too good" and maybe a change?

I don't know what to tell you that hasn't been echoed here already. These are too strong, and that's not bias against the Phantom, its not wanting to see a ship even "arguably" as good as the Defender that can be 4 times as many places.

Can you show with your own words why certain parts are "too strong" because people are, to me and at least one other person, either overestimating ability or underestimating cost +action economy. Even something as simple as rephrasing what has been echoed could shed new light to the situation.

Here is a short video explaining the problem.

http://randolphw.github.io/echolocation/

That's not showing me anything, no ship movement or nothing.

Do you accept the premice that Echo is THE most maneuverable ship in the game?

Do you accept the premice that Echo is THE most maneuverable ship in the game?

There any a couple ships that are very maneuverable in their own way. What is the point you are getting at?

Im sorry, if you cannot understand my premice as written, you do not understand what ACD/decloak actually means in terms of maneuverability.

There is nothing I can say. All I can do is vote for something else.

Im sorry, if you cannot understand my premice as written, you do not understand what ACD/decloak actually means in terms of maneuverability.

There is nothing I can say. All I can do is vote for something else.

I understand your question and I understand what ACD/decloak means in terms of maneuverability. What is the point of bringing it up? Saying the ship is maneuverable is not an argument of what is "too strong", it is a statement that the ship is maneuverable. To which I respond "yes and....?". What is your argument? I can not read your mind or argument you are trying to make with a link that isn't working for me and a question.

The most maneuverable ship in the game should be nowhere near as efficent as the best straight up jouster in the game.

The most maneuverable ship in the game should be nowhere near as efficent as the best straight up jouster in the game.

Now we are getting somewhere! So your problem is that you feel that the phantom would become the best "jouster" in the game with the mk3 upgrade. Is that correct?

The most maneuverable ship in the game should be nowhere near as efficent as the best straight up jouster in the game.

Now we are getting somewhere! So your problem is that you feel that the phantom would become the best "jouster" in the game with the mk3 upgrade. Is that correct?

I'm saying that even coming close is too much.

The Tie Phantom Aces are FINE with just ACD. Any "fix" for the tie phantom should lock out ACD, which is useless anyway on the generics that actually need help.

The most maneuverable ship in the game should be nowhere near as efficent as the best straight up jouster in the game.

Now we are getting somewhere! So your problem is that you feel that the phantom would become the best "jouster" in the game with the mk3 upgrade. Is that correct?

I'm saying that even coming close is too much.

The Tie Phantom Aces are FINE with just ACD. Any "fix" for the tie phantom should lock out ACD, which is useless anyway on the generics that actually need help.

What do you consider is "coming close"?

What about this change for the MK3

Mk. III Stygium Cloaking Device

Modification Tie Phantom only

You must equip "Stygium Particle accelerator" and pay its squad points.

When you perform a cloak action or decloak you may remove a target lock from your ship.

??points

Doesn't improve the maneuverablity of the ship that you are worried about, and makes the cloaking device more thematic about being hard to track. Helps the lower PS phantoms and still helps them live a little longer, Locks out ACD from higher PS ships. Unsure of point cost.

Added my view point on the front page and re-tweaked the MK 3 cloaking device

I like the idea that the Punisher gains more firepower - 'like 2 bombers' at least ..

On the other hand ... it gets too fast too expensive.

I think I still like my fix better: read my sig.

I like the idea that the Punisher gains more firepower - 'like 2 bombers' at least ..

On the other hand ... it gets too fast too expensive.

I think I still like my fix better: read my sig.

Edit: thinking about it more what if it had a built in munitions failsafe instead? That way it can never waste a shot but still has a limited amount of ammo I think I might change the title to that instead of an ept

I like the idea that the Punisher gains more firepower - 'like 2 bombers' at least ..

On the other hand ... it gets too fast too expensive.

I think I still like my fix better: read my sig.

Having infinite shots doesn't really help the punisher since games don't normally last long enough for it to make its points back I feel that it wouldn't really be thematic for a punisher to have a single missle/torpedo or bombs and nothing else, punishers are heavy hitting costly things not just bombers with a longer battery. For epic it would be a great fix.

Edit: thinking about it more what if it had a built in munitions failsafe instead? That way it can never waste a shot but still has a limited amount of ammo I think I might change the title to that instead of an ept

I think it is very thematic that the Punisher can't run out of ammo.

And further I think this would help a lot, since a single ordnance upgrade is sufficient to be efficient.

21 points + 4 points (Concussion Missiles) + LRS for example would lead to 25 points Punisher which could be more effective then a Tie-Bomber.

I like the idea that the Punisher gains more firepower - 'like 2 bombers' at least ..

On the other hand ... it gets too fast too expensive.

I think I still like my fix better: read my sig.

Having infinite shots doesn't really help the punisher since games don't normally last long enough for it to make its points back I feel that it wouldn't really be thematic for a punisher to have a single missle/torpedo or bombs and nothing else, punishers are heavy hitting costly things not just bombers with a longer battery. For epic it would be a great fix.

Edit: thinking about it more what if it had a built in munitions failsafe instead? That way it can never waste a shot but still has a limited amount of ammo I think I might change the title to that instead of an ept

A punisher shouldn't be a more effective bomber for the same price, it's a more expensive heavy hitter.

Failsafe is bad but a free failsafe that is an extra mod slot works just fine and while ordance platforms shouldn't miss the reality of it is that they can and do, failsafe munitions protects from wasting ammo and there is my system slot that can give them two shots a turn which you can think of as a gunner

A punisher shouldn't be a more effective bomber for the same price, it's a more expensive heavy hitter.

Failsafe is bad but a free failsafe that is an extra mod slot works just fine and while ordance platforms shouldn't miss the reality of it is that they can and do, failsafe munitions protects from wasting ammo and there is my system slot that can give them two shots a turn which you can think of as a gunner

Yes its a more expensive heavy hitter. Too expensive. Because Bombers are cheaper.

If you want to go full fluff-wise your Punisher fix should allow to launch up to 4 ordnance cards - because of the obvious 4 launch pods.

A punisher shouldn't be a more effective bomber for the same price, it's a more expensive heavy hitter.

Failsafe is bad but a free failsafe that is an extra mod slot works just fine and while ordance platforms shouldn't miss the reality of it is that they can and do, failsafe munitions protects from wasting ammo and there is my system slot that can give them two shots a turn which you can think of as a gunner

Yes its a more expensive heavy hitter. Too expensive. Because Bombers are cheaper.

If you want to go full fluff-wise your Punisher fix should allow to launch up to 4 ordnance cards - because of the obvious 4 launch pods.

Its ways overpriced and don't even pack a harder punch than a tie bomber and that's its problem. its more expensive but doesn't hit harder at all, in fact because of lack of ept for things like crackshot it hits even less. As for 4 shots a turn that is a bit overkill and I don't think could ever be correctly priced. The system for the double shot and able to save a targetlock for one I think is a good baby step. You could even have two cluster missiles and fire "4 times" that way. Obviously for balance reasons we can't go full fluff for many of the ships because of the power for some and could even make some other ships weaker. I think a two shot ordnance ship is a cautious start.

Speaking of which what do you think about the system upgrade for the punisher and the new title? I went with a free 1 point mod so it can work for bombers too for mk2 TIE, if they want, and obviously munitions failsafe since I think that is a good medium for "unlimited munitions". I didn't want to do a "or less" because I like having to pick between chips and LRS but currently limits it only to mk2 and failsafe

A Punisher that would be able to fire 4 ordnance weapons would require to buy 4 missile/torp upgrade cards - so this would be WAY too expensive on the one hand - and you even had no place left for EM.

So even if this ability was there we would likely see Punishers with the 3 cheapest upgrades + EM + FCS. Most interesting would be the ability to fire Ion Pulse Missiles and Flechette Torps in a single round to lock down a target + Tracers as support for other ships and/or to get a TL in first place or Plasma Torps for some damage.

I would most likely have it this way:

Punisher 21, EM 2, Tracers 1, Ion Pulse 2, Plasma Torps 3, GC 0 = 28 Points

Action Focus. Starting with Tracers for TL (and TL for escords), following with Ion Pulse while I keep the TL and finally the Plasma Torps, hoping for a good roll. GC is only good once per round, anyway.

I don't think this would be overpowered, because if you load 3 or 4 serious ordnance weapons, you would just put all eggs into one basket.

Hence: Punisher 21, EM 2, FCS 2, PT 4, Concussions 4, Concussions 4 = 37 points for a very heavy hitter that still need to get a TL in order to fire - if it wasn't vaporized in the first round of combat before ps2 was reached.

Of course you could field Redline with all this stuff, then you would be at 43 points, with good chances to kill a single ship before Redline goes down.

My point is that the Punisher would not be overpowered even if you are allowed to fire every single upgrade card in a single turn. But it would add some interesting roles.

But still it is my strong opinion that it would be absolutely legit - gameplay-wise and fluff-wise - to just give the Punisher infinite munitions. Hence that the (non-bomb) ordnance upgrade slots just represent 1 pod out of 4.

A Punisher that would be able to fire 4 ordnance weapons would require to buy 4 missile/torp upgrade cards - so this would be WAY too expensive on the one hand - and you even had no place left for EM.

So even if this ability was there we would likely see Punishers with the 3 cheapest upgrades + EM + FCS. Most interesting would be the ability to fire Ion Pulse Missiles and Flechette Torps in a single round to lock down a target + Tracers as support for other ships and/or to get a TL in first place or Plasma Torps for some damage.

I would most likely have it this way:

Punisher 21, EM 2, Tracers 1, Ion Pulse 2, Plasma Torps 3, GC 0 = 28 Points

Action Focus. Starting with Tracers for TL (and TL for escords), following with Ion Pulse while I keep the TL and finally the Plasma Torps, hoping for a good roll. GC is only good once per round, anyway.

I don't think this would be overpowered, because if you load 3 or 4 serious ordnance weapons, you would just put all eggs into one basket.

Hence: Punisher 21, EM 2, FCS 2, PT 4, Concussions 4, Concussions 4 = 37 points for a very heavy hitter that still need to get a TL in order to fire - if it wasn't vaporized in the first round of combat before ps2 was reached.

Of course you could field Redline with all this stuff, then you would be at 43 points, with good chances to kill a single ship before Redline goes down.

My point is that the Punisher would not be overpowered even if you are allowed to fire every single upgrade card in a single turn. But it would add some interesting roles.

But still it is my strong opinion that it would be absolutely legit - gameplay-wise and fluff-wise - to just give the Punisher infinite munitions. Hence that the (non-bomb) ordnance upgrade slots just represent 1 pod out of 4.

Being able to fire every ordance in the same turn I still think is way too strong and with unlimited munitions would make it even worse, take this spin on it

Redline + fcs +Plasma torps + plasma torps + cluster missiles+ cluster missiles+ chips = 43 points, gives enough room for OL with comms+juke and Inquis +ptl +title+AT

that's 20 dice with re-roll on 14 of them with a change from guidance chips on a die, the two plasma torps will take down any shields an opponent has most of the time, and clusters to finish off/heavily damage it but that's a range 2 only thing so you could even go double concussion missiles for the same price, drops it to 16 dice but the defender only gets to roll 4 times instead of 6 for range 2-3, and you are assuming 9 health with 3 of them being shields is paper thin, yes it has 1 agi but there is a seriously low chance of it dying in a single round before it can fire, combo that with infinite munitions and you have a monster of a ship. As well as since the meta game is starting to steer away from PS races 7 is in a good spot to shoot at. And with OL and inquis as fantastic clean up ships even if redline just nukes a single ship it will have most likely paid its points back easily.

Infinite munitions, to me, is just not a realistic option since it just turns missiles and torpedos into cannons which is not thematic or the purpose of them at that point and certain options would be a lot stronger than others as well. With a free, slotless, munitions failsafe they still can take chips/LRS and never waste a shot but can still eventually run out.

And just infinite munitions without multiple shots you still have the same problem, bombers are cheaper and do the same thing but better, only different is the bomber gets at most 2 shots each thing assuming EM. Sure the punisher has unlimited ammo but it will only matter if the punisher makes more than 2 shots.

As for each ordance slot representing a pod that does not make sense or else the bomber wouldn't have the same amount of trop/missile slots.

Do you feel that a free and slotless munitions failsafe as well as a double shot a turn would be fine for the punisher?

It would be of course either or.

I never liked the mechanics of munition failsafe.

Changed cost of the torp and missile lowering the cost by 1 each.