There has been a lot of talk locally about the abuse of Stress Related mechanics and how stress is virtually meaningless to some builds.

I have seen all kinds of thoughts on "fixes"to this including damage for excess stress, no whites, etc. Has anyone proposed limiting all self-stressing mechanics to only work if you are not already stressed?

This still allows some of the great cards to work (like Zuckass) and gives meaning to cards like Inspiring Recruits.

There are three ways to punish a stressed ship

1. No red maneuvers and actions

Both can be overcome buy distinct builds like modifier crews such as dengar or 180 degree arcs to open up maneuvers

2. A lot of cards (mostly EPT) only work when you are not stressed

This can be overcome when you of course don't take these cards

3. And most promising: Giving the opponent advantages when fighting stressed ships. This is by far the best one because the enemy cannot influence that. And I think FFG will be going in this direction a lot more in the future. Examples are Eaden Vrill, Latts Razzi crew, (maybe also slicer tools, but not against slaver)

stress being virtually meaningless is some builds is the product of people not fully understanding just how to exploit the limitations stress provides

for example, Dengaroo limits his ass to the white 2-sloop when it comes to orientating his arc

big whoop, right? he still gets infina focus and re-rolls

except his arc accounts for literally half the entire list's damage output and stress shuts off two of his 3 180 maneuvers

and ofc, manny cares a lot

stress being virtually meaningless is some builds is the product of people not fully understanding just how to exploit the limitations stress provides

for example, Dengaroo limits his ass to the white 2-sloop when it comes to orientating his arc

big whoop, right? he still gets infina focus and re-rolls

except his arc accounts for literally half the entire list's damage output and stress shuts off two of his 3 180 maneuvers

and ofc, manny cares a lot

This. Block the sloop, people. Block. The. Sloop.

This is a problem with the 2-3 ship builds currently popular in the meta, such builds do not really leave room for a blocker. The irony being that such builds are often particularly susceptible to blocking because half your fleet losing its actions is a big deal.

Stress is fine.

This is a problem with the 2-3 ship builds currently popular in the meta, such builds do not really leave room for a blocker. The irony being that such builds are often particularly susceptible to blocking because half your fleet losing its actions is a big deal.

Indeed. This is the big advantage of swarms - although its annoying that you're starting to get squads tolerant of blocking as well as stress (TIE/x7 or Attani Mindlink, for example).

There has been a lot of talk locally about the abuse of Stress Related mechanics and how stress is virtually meaningless to some builds.

It's not broken it's working as intended.

FFG has quite intentionally made ships/upgrades that ignore stress and they're not going to make any change to a core mechanic when that mechanic is working like they want it to.

It's not broken it's working as intended.

FFG has quite intentionally made ships/upgrades that ignore stress and they're not going to make any change to a core mechanic when that mechanic is working like they want it to.

Is it? FFG has stated this somewhere?

Pretty sure the Phantom worked as intended, as did deadeye... but those things changed. That's how the game evolves.

Stress is suppose to be negative effect. When you can have ships with 20+ stress tokens, that still has actions/tokens (from multiple sources) and continue to acquire more stress while giving their opponents negatives (Zuckass) and literally not caring about the stress something is wrong.

Latts Razi will make people think twice about showing up with dengaroo again.

Is it? FFG has stated this somewhere?

Unless you think they're creating upgrades and abilities at random with no thought to the impact they'll have or how they work. Then the answer is yes.

Pretty sure the Phantom worked as intended, as did deadeye...

Deadeye was a mistake from the start, it was never intended to work as it did. They just didn't have the same level of play testing back then. The phantom was a problem, but one that wasn't easily discovered until it was released in the wild.

Stress is suppose to be negative effect.

And in 95% of the cases it is a negative effect. But since wave 2 they have been making ships that don't suffer from Stress.

and literally not caring about the stress something is wrong.

There may be a problem with that given ship and/or combo that does not however mean there's anything wrong with stress itself. It also doesn't mean that stress doesn't work exactly as intended. Since we've had Tycho since wave 2 we can say that FFG has for quite some time to have ships that aren't affected by stress in the same way most others are.

and literally not caring about the stress something is wrong.

There may be a problem with that given ship and/or combo that does not however mean there's anything wrong with stress itself.

OK, if we want to split hairs. You are correct, there is nothing wrong with Stress as a game mechanic.

But there is a problem with the combos that make it meaningless. Like the Phantom I'm pretty sure these combos weren't discovered until they were also in the wild.

So it comes down to, do these COMBOS need to be adjusted to be a bonus for a negative, instead of just continual bonuses with virtually no negatives?

Limiting ships from using self stressing cards/abilities if they are already stressed seems a simple fix.

Here are all the common builds that actually stack large amounts of stress on themselves using self-stressing abilities:

• Tycho Celchu - low attack value means no one complains about this
• Stresshog Y-Wing / Stressmule ARC - poor dial when stressed, lack of actions when stressed, and only moderate damage output means no one complains about this
• YV-666 with Zuckuss - terrible dial when stressed, has no way to deal with ships that get behind it while it's stressed
• Dengaroo - actually pretty scary even when stressed out the wazoo, as long as Manaroo is alive and not denied actions. Does lose access to barrel roll, k-turn, and one sloop option while stressed

Am I missing any?

Here are all the other builds that don't stack huge amounts of stress on themselves, but can still get significant amounts of modifiers even while double-stressed:

• x7 Defenders - can get Evades while stressed. Vessery in particular can get Target Locks while stressed, still can't red hard turn, focus, or barrel roll while stressed
• VCX-100 with Hera crew and FCS - strong offense and quite maneuverable, but can get burned down by swarm attacks or arc dodged by higher PS
• Anything with Predator (no one complains about Predator, do they?)
• Anything with Dengar crew (a very good card, but not one I see many complaints about)
• Mindlink builds (weirdly both hate stress because it spreads across the whole squad, but are also resilient to stress because they can share Focus)

Again, am I missing anything?

How many of these really draw a lot of player hate? By my count, exactly 2-and-a-half - Dengaroo, x7 defenders, and Zuckuss in non-Dengaroo builds. To me, this is a good argument that Stress mechanics are not the problem.

I think a huge part of the reason people get hung up on the stress mechanics is that stress control lists (tactician, r3-a2, Rebel Captive, whatever) used to be at least problematic for almost every foe. Now there are major counters to stress control, particularly Dengaroo. But in my opinion, having a list or two out there that can shrug off stress control is totally ok. It's just another element of the incredible rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock game we have here.

and literally not caring about the stress something is wrong.

There may be a problem with that given ship and/or combo that does not however mean there's anything wrong with stress itself.

OK, if we want to split hairs. You are correct, there is nothing wrong with Stress as a game mechanic.

But there is a problem with the combos that make it meaningless. Like the Phantom I'm pretty sure these combos weren't discovered until they were also in the wild.

So it comes down to, do these COMBOS need to be adjusted to be a bonus for a negative, instead of just continual bonuses with virtually no negatives?

Limiting ships from using self stressing cards/abilities if they are already stressed seems a simple fix.

I was writing the above when you posted this. I am definitely of the opinion that the problem is the combos, not the stress mechanics. I would far, far rather see a narrowly targeted fix to Zuckuss and a point cost adjustment to x7 than a broad stress mechanics change.

"Limiting ships from using self stressing cards/abilities if they are already stressed" is actually a really problematic rule to try to implement. Even putting aside the fact that it would massively limit future card design space around self-stressing, it wrecks many good, balanced builds and cards that already exist. Suddenly, R3-A2 can't double-stress anyone. Suddenly, depending on how you word the rule, Hera crew doesn't actually do anything anymore. Can R4-K6 cancel more than 1 incoming hit anymore? Or do so after Biggs does a k-turn? And what the hell happens to Tycho Celchu?

And at the same time you do that, you remove a ton of potential counters to stress control lists.

Plus, as my list above shows, there are quite a few builds (especially x7) that players like to complain about for "not caring about stress" that your rule suggestion does nothing to fix. How does "can't self-stress if you're already stressed" do anything about an x7 Defender or a ship with Dengar crew and Mindlink? It doesn't.

As far as stress is concerned, all I want is for Manaroo to be unable to pass focus to a ship with 2 or more stress tokens. Do that and I don't have much issue with stress stacking. Stress in and of itself still works as intended. Manaroo, at least in my mind, is the only thing really causing issues with stress stacking because she is able to feed the needed actions to a stressed ship that would otherwise lose a lot of its functionality.

And I'm not saying Dengaroo is unbeatable and you can't take advantage of Dengar's stress stack even with Manaroo in play. That has already been discussed and there are good ways to deal with it. Having said that, I do feel that Dengaroo is more effective than it reasonably should be, and a slight rewording of Manaroo would be welcomed.

The problem isn't the stress. The problem, if you'd call it that, is in the combinations that allow you to do a lot of damage while ignoring the negative aspects of said stress.

In a Dengaroo list, you can shut it down a lot, and increase the risk to Manaroo by adding "at range 1-2" to Manaroo. Shuts down Lone Wolf, makes maneuvering more predictable.

Look at what enables the combo, and find your solution there.

OK, if we want to split hairs. You are correct, there is nothing wrong with Stress as a game mechanic.

that's not splitting hairs, that's just understanding of the game's mechanics and how they work. Because your approach says that something is wrong with stress as opposed to the correct view that something may be wrong with those combs.

If you approach a system thinking it's supposed to be inherently negative then you're starting off with the wrong premise and that almost always leads to the wrong conclusion.

But there is a problem with the combos that make it meaningless.

Which is an issue with those combos and not stress itself. You don't make change to a core system unless the game as a whole is broken, which is not the case here. What we have is a few combos that may need to be rebalanced.

Dengar definitely does care about stress. He's built to deal without actions, but the fact that it turns off his barrel roll is huge. Just gotta predict where he will go and bring a build that has some resilience to his shots.

Reducing the impact of stress typically also increases the efficiency of your action economy (if one disregards true anti-stress cards like Porkins and Wingman), which is always a good thing. So there is no real price to pay for making your squad resistant to stress. Not having to rely on actions is good even if you never receive a stress token; it probably just means extra focus tokens.

But there is a problem with the combos that make it meaningless.

No combo makes it entirely meaningless. Mostly meaningless, sure, but not entirely. I'm not a good enough player to exploit the ways stress is still meaningful, but there are people who are. I strive to become one of them instead of complaining (and yet I am here writing this)...

Anyway. Why is there a problem with combos that make it meaningless?

Is there a problem with combos that make green dice meaningless? (Autoblaster Turret)

What about combos that make red dice meaningless? (Accuracy Corrector)

What about combos that make maneuver dials and the entire planning phase meaningless? (Ion Cannons, but also Fettigator, Stay on Target)

What about combos that make shields meaningless? (Proton Bombs)

What about combos that make critical hits meaningless? (Chewie, Integrated Astromech)

What about combos that make setup rules meaningless? (new Han)

What about combos that make obstacles meaningless? (Seismic Torpedoes)

What about combos that make firing arcs meaningless? (any turret ever)

What about combos that make focus tokens and/or evade tokens meaningless? (Omega Leader, Cornor Jax)

What I'm getting at: Name any one game mechanism, and if there's no combo that makes it situationally meaningless in some builds now, there'll certainly be one not much later.

Stress is absolutely fine.

But there is a problem with the combos that make it meaningless.

No combo makes it entirely meaningless. Mostly meaningless, sure, but not entirely. I'm not a good enough player to exploit the ways stress is still meaningful, but there are people who are. I strive to become one of them instead of complaining (and yet I am here writing this)...

Anyway. Why is there a problem with combos that make it meaningless?

Is there a problem with combos that make green dice meaningless? (Autoblaster Turret)

What about combos that make red dice meaningless? (Accuracy Corrector)

What about combos that make maneuver dials and the entire planning phase meaningless? (Ion Cannons, but also Fettigator, Stay on Target)

What about combos that make shields meaningless? (Proton Bombs)

What about combos that make critical hits meaningless? (Chewie, Integrated Astromech)

What about combos that make setup rules meaningless? (new Han)

What about combos that make obstacles meaningless? (Seismic Torpedoes)

What about combos that make firing arcs meaningless? (any turret ever)

What about combos that make focus tokens and/or evade tokens meaningless? (Omega Leader, Cornor Jax)

What I'm getting at: Name any one game mechanism, and if there's no combo that makes it situationally meaningless in some builds now, there'll certainly be one not much later.

Stress is absolutely fine.

That's a really good point. To put it another way - every game mechanic has at least some builds that abuse it or ignore it. Why should stress be any different?

A single card or ability does not a combo make.

The problem here is the combination of:

- a ship that can turn 180 while stressed

- a ship with PWT 3

- modifiers while stressed due to another ship with limitless range providing tokens

- limitless modifiers of opponents' defense dice while attacking

The cost of the last component (zuckuss) is negated by the bonus granted by the component prior to that (manaroo) with the first two parts just serving to make it even more annoying.

If Dengar would not have target locks and focus tokens to maximize his attack dice while stacking up the stress to kill your defense dice, potentially twice per round, than people would not nearly be as frustrated.

Accuracy Corrector and Autoblaster together are a nasty combo, but not problematic enough, currently, to become something that might need dealing with. The ships that can utilize that combination are few and far between and the Autoblaster, both as turret and as cannon, can be negated by staying out of range.

If you'd have a Rhymer that can help other people, then you'd have a potential combo problem with AC and Autoblaster for instance.

stress being virtually meaningless is some builds is the product of people not fully understanding just how to exploit the limitations stress provides

for example, Dengaroo limits his ass to the white 2-sloop when it comes to orientating his arc

big whoop, right? he still gets infina focus and re-rolls

except his arc accounts for literally half the entire list's damage output and stress shuts off two of his 3 180 maneuvers

and ofc, manny cares a lot

A ship that still firing you with a fully modified dice. In fact, is way better blocking Manaroo more than Dengar itself.

Yes, stress abuse is a thing. Is playable, but is a rulebook hole even for flavour.