... and yet in the greater Star Wars Lore*, this is not the first time we've seen someone throw a Star Destroyer at something...

Maybe its a background in astrophysics and rocket design, but the hammerhead corvette was actually not the part that bothered me about the battle.

1)once the two ISDs collided, they would just come apart. They are outside of atmosphere (assuming that shield can't be penetrated by anything) so they would just keep orbiting. Them dropping is a painfully stupid gimmick in space movies.

2)if atmosphere does escape that shield, then they would de-orbit... Over a few months or years depending on altitude.

Check how far away from the planet those ships would need to be to actually be in unpowered geosynchronous orbit. Once you figure that out, you'll be surprised that the disabled ISD didn't fall straight into the shield sooner. It is also why the the second ISD didn't bounce when hit but rather got tore up. They would need to be using a lot of energy to be standing right over that shield gate making the second ISD more immovable than an object in a natural unpowered orbit.

If you want to call the scene BS, just point out the other collision between Star Destoryers in Episode V.

You still need to overcome mass and original speed of the ISD, which is unlikely for such a small vessel. The ISD has engines the size of said corvette for a reason. Or do you think you can push a large asteroid in space just because there is no gravity?

Basically, yes you can. The problem with small thrust, or force, is friction. You must over come friction to move and object. In space, there is no friction. So you can in fact apply a small about of thrust for a long period of time to move a large object. Alternatively, you can apply a large amount of thrust over a short period of time to move a large object. A yugo can still get up to 100 mph, may take it an hour to get up to that speed, but yes, eventually it will.

The ISD had large engines for fast acceleration. The corvette was mostly engines, so it still has a respectable amount of thrust, and given time, it can move an ISD just like a little tug boat can move a large air craft carrier.

Fine, it was a surprise attack, except that it was not really for the Imperial Ships, as the ground team engaged before the Rebel fleet arrives. Which I assume would put the orbitting ships on high alert no?

Then I noticed the shield dome on the soon to be disabled SD was destroyed at some point in the battle.

It has been long since established that those domes are sensor domes, not shield generators.

As for the hammerhead corvette ramming and destroying the 2 ISD's, which some people defend. How would you think of the following scene in a pacific theatre WW-II movie:

A small US fleet engages the Yamato & Musashi guarding a port. After a lucky torpedo disables the Yamato's engines, a small US Destroyer rams the Yamato, then pushes the Yamato against the Musashi, causing the Musashi to be cut in two halves bow to stern after which both super heavy battleships sink. Would that make for a believable naval scene?

Actually the "sensor dome" theory is just fan ****.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/ISD-72x_deflector_shield_generator_dome

http://www.starwars.com/databank/shield-generators

Those domes are the shield generators.

As for the hammerhead corvette ramming and destroying the 2 ISD's, which some people defend. How would you think of the following scene in a pacific theatre WW-II movie:

A small US fleet engages the Yamato & Musashi guarding a port. After a lucky torpedo disables the Yamato's engines, a small US Destroyer rams the Yamato, then pushes the Yamato against the Musashi, causing the Musashi to be cut in two halves bow to stern after which both super heavy battleships sink. Would that make for a believable naval scene?

About as believable as a little biplane taking out the Bismark.

Seriously, early naval warfare was all about ramming other ships. Those are battleships in port, how you think they actually got into port? Little tub boats got them in there is how. A destroyer, at speed and built to ram would have torn those battleships apart. Of course those battle ships had pretty powerful guns which would have torn that destroyer apart long before it got close to them. Cannons put an end to ship ramming.

Consider this. Its been 20 years since the Clone wars. You've had two entire generations of officers who's combat experience might be a stopping pirates or a rebel raid. Using probably fighters, modified freighters, maybe a corvette at most. All a destroyer captain would generally have to do is show up and what ever he was fighting would scatter to the winds. This time though the rebels committed to the fight. Between the arrogance and inexperience of the destroyer captains, add in they were defending a fixed installation. Initiative goes to the attackers. Makes sense that they could knock out those two ships and the shield gate.

As for Devastator, remembering she was being commanded by one of the greatest generals of the clone wars and she was coming in hot and ready for a fight. The rebels were spent and beginning to withdraw, they didn't have a chance at that point.

Those star destroyers were clearly command by Rear Admiral Cliff Clavin.

"Why it is a little known fact that if you set your speed dial to 0 and stand still no one can hit you."

Thematically I could understand the irritation at the scene if that had been it but to me all doubts and gripes were dispelled when the Devastator jumped into the system all guns blazing. That initial barrage cut a Nebulon B Frigate and rebel transport into shreds before proceeding to disable a massive Mon Calamari ship and that's without mentioning the ships that crashed into it either.

I think everyone has made many very good points as to why the other two Destroyers went down. Take this from someone who almost always gripes about how the Empire goes down so easily in Rebels, this wasnt that bad. The Empire held its own and plenty of rebels died. The battle was awesome! Lets just enjoy the fact that the prequel days are far behind us and that we're finally getting solid Star Wars again. (btw I don't hate the prequels but they aren't that great either)

Those star destroyers were clearly command by Rear Admiral Cliff Clavin.

"Why it is a little known fact that if you set your speed dial to 0 and stand still no one can hit you."

You do know that he's in the Game Now, Right?

As that is Major Derlin.

I didn't mind the other two Star Destroyers not doing much. They were taken by surprise. Imagine staking three blank command dials and starting with your star destroyers with a speed of 0. I think a fleet the size the rebels used in R1 would give them a lot of trouble.

Also I felt that one of the reasons why Darth Vader's Star Destroyer was so deivstating was that so much of the rebel strength was spent getting the shield down. Rebel ships were damaged and even destroyed before Vader showed up.

Yeah, a little bitty ship pushing a big one sideways is totally unrealistic.

Oh, wait.... :-)

The whole scene was at the same time AWESOME and ANGRY-REACT

The admiral being nothing but a mouthpiece to keep kids and slower viewers in the picture of the battle unfolding was super disappointing. I'm pretty sure he gave no orders, just repeated what he was seeing, constantly surprised by everything. Apparently couldn't' realise that signals couldn't penetrate the planetary shield even with rebel forces on the ground. He and his staff need to be fired.

>Star Destroyers don't have weapon batteries apparently.

>No discussion about fleet tactics or enemy capabilities (10-20 seconds of this would have made my day)
>Don't launch fighters 'til halfway through.
>No hyperspace warning systems apparently

>Hammerhead gimmick, kinda cool at least even if it's stupid.

Holy **** it LOOKED awesome though, super chunky aesthetic on the ships and a really good spatial based visuals made it look fantastic. Awesome 3D effect (saw it in 2d).

Yeah, a little bitty ship pushing a big one sideways is totally unrealistic.

Oh, wait.... :-)

But I don't see many tugs splitting a destroyer in half using another destroyer...

I disagree about the Admiral being nothing but a "mouthpiece."

He, and the few imperial officers gave the battle a face. Someone to connect to, to root for or against. A human element.

Without them you get a battle like in Return of the Sith. Just a mess of ships firing at each other with the audience left to say, "ooh neat. When do we get back to the people."

With the Commanders there, we can sense the tension. We can see the stakes. Through these officers the audience is a part of the battle instead of distant and uninvested observers.

Yeah, a little bitty ship pushing a big one sideways is totally unrealistic.

Oh, wait.... :-)

and they have to be very controlled or they will damage the big ship if they hit the dock to hard.

were just missing a scene.

Its obvious the commanding imperial officers in space were so completely caught off guard by the attack that they did not know what the proper response should have been. They in standard imperial arrogance casually sought guidance from their Superior officers. This is why the imperials were so slow to act in space in pretty much every way. Initial engagement, fighter launch, destroyer engagement etc...

or it was a sub par movie 6/10 and the writing was alright (despite the near endless praise i see for it)

that Vader scene was tight though XD

In a low gravity environment, you can move objects even of large mass with the application of force. Those small ships look fast, and we can assume that a disabled Star Destroyer will have lost it's ability to hold its position.

Now, an object with a large mass, even though it needs relatively little force to get going will still have a heck of a lot of momentum.. again due to mass.

The captain says more or less "Sublight engines, maximum power." They may not have the hot rod engine arrays of a blockade runner, but they're a similar design type. I bet they put out plenty of thrust, and like you say, in a microgravity environment they could push a massive object if they build up enough momentum. Then the huge mass of the SD is what does the damage, not the hammerhead.

People complain now, but I think they're willfully ignoring clearly depicted events of the battle. Once this is out on video to rewatch, I think the gripes will dissolve. For example, the star destroyer is not disabled by a single bombing run of Y-wings. We see waves of fighters take it apart, including a squadron of X-wings that torpedo its starboard shield generator.

Maybe its a background in astrophysics and rocket design, but the hammerhead corvette was actually not the part that bothered me about the battle.

1)once the two ISDs collided, they would just come apart. They are outside of atmosphere (assuming that shield can't be penetrated by anything) so they would just keep orbiting. Them dropping is a painfully stupid gimmick in space movies.

2)if atmosphere does escape that shield, then they would de-orbit... Over a few months or years depending on altitude.

Check how far away from the planet those ships would need to be to actually be in unpowered geosynchronous orbit. Once you figure that out, you'll be surprised that the disabled ISD didn't fall straight into the shield sooner. It is also why the the second ISD didn't bounce when hit but rather got tore up. They would need to be using a lot of energy to be standing right over that shield gate making the second ISD more immovable than an object in a natural unpowered orbit.

I will use Earth as a reference since the planet looked similar mass and size. They were not in geostationary orbit. They were in what is called Low Earth Orbit (LEO) (Low Scariff orbit?). It is about 300km up and there is still an extraordinarily thin atmosphere up there. An object in LEO with maintain its orbits for long periods of time, but the thin atmosphere will eventually slow the satellite (ISD in this case). This takes months. The International Space Station requires boosting to its orbital velocity every few months because of this or it would deorbit. This movie portrays this effect as happening in minutes or seconds. That is absolutely wrong. A ship that loses power while in orbit will just stay in that orbit until drag due running into matter (like an atmosphere) slows it down. As it slows, the periapsis ends up lower than the surface of the planet and it crashes.

"Unpowered" and "powered" orbits are not a thing. Either it is in orbit, or it is undergoing a "burn" and is changing orbits. There is no such thing as a powered orbit.

If you want a crash course in orbital mechanics, go buy Kerbal Space Program and have fun. It is remarkably accurate at representing orbital mechanics.

Tl;dr: The ISDs would have sat in orbit after being torn apart. The shield base doesn't stay above the Imperial installation. KSP is awesome.

(Hey its just like in Armada where a tiny corvette trades 1-1 damage to a rammed/ramming ISD!)

A CR90 sized dent in a star destroyer is bad, but a CR90 sized dent in a CR90 is fatal. (also, the CR90 loses 25% or its hull while the star destroyer loses less than 10%.)

Furthermore the hammerhead pushes a dead mass in space (and presumably still has its shields up, unlike it's target, so it doesn't also crunch) which then gets an assist from gravity to fall into another star destroyer. Of all the wonky physics, the corvette acting as a tug boat is the least wonky. (and yes, this is how tugs operate, sometimes bumping much larger ships into position). If anything this just underscores the point of how powerful activation advantage is.

Maybe its a background in astrophysics and rocket design, but the hammerhead corvette was actually not the part that bothered me about the battle.

1)once the two ISDs collided, they would just come apart. They are outside of atmosphere (assuming that shield can't be penetrated by anything) so they would just keep orbiting. Them dropping is a painfully stupid gimmick in space movies.

2)if atmosphere does escape that shield, then they would de-orbit... Over a few months or years depending on altitude.

Check how far away from the planet those ships would need to be to actually be in unpowered geosynchronous orbit. Once you figure that out, you'll be surprised that the disabled ISD didn't fall straight into the shield sooner. It is also why the the second ISD didn't bounce when hit but rather got tore up. They would need to be using a lot of energy to be standing right over that shield gate making the second ISD more immovable than an object in a natural unpowered orbit.

That... isn't how orbits work at all. You mean geostationary. That is an orbit with a period equal to the planet's (sidereal) day and at the planet's equator so that it doesn't appear to move at all from someone on the ground. Geosynchronous just means an orbital period equal to the sidereal day so that it returns to its original position and speed relative to the ground each day. It is like comparing a square to a quadrilateral.

I will use Earth as a reference since the planet looked similar mass and size. They were not in geostationary orbit. They were in what is called Low Earth Orbit (LEO) (Low Scariff orbit?). It is about 300km up and there is still an extraordinarily thin atmosphere up there. An object in LEO with maintain its orbits for long periods of time, but the thin atmosphere will eventually slow the satellite (ISD in this case). This takes months. The International Space Station requires boosting to its orbital velocity every few months because of this or it would deorbit. This movie portrays this effect as happening in minutes or seconds. That is absolutely wrong. A ship that loses power while in orbit will just stay in that orbit until drag due running into matter (like an atmosphere) slows it down. As it slows, the periapsis ends up lower than the surface of the planet and it crashes.

"Unpowered" and "powered" orbits are not a thing. Either it is in orbit, or it is undergoing a "burn" and is changing orbits. There is no such thing as a powered orbit.

If you want a crash course in orbital mechanics, go buy Kerbal Space Program and have fun. It is remarkably accurate at representing orbital mechanics.

Tl;dr: The ISDs would have sat in orbit after being torn apart. The shield base doesn't stay above the Imperial installation. KSP is awesome.

You are right about the orbit terminology. They are not in orbit at all. They are in burn to stay in position above the shield gate which was very close to the planet. Their speed parallel to the planet isn't anywhere close to obtaining an orbit and would fall as soon as their burn was disabled. This wouldn't take days or weeks, but probably minutes considering their slow speed and mass and proximity to the planet. Which was my point all along. Think of how fast those ships would need to be moving around the planet to be in an actual orbit compared to how they were actually moving.

Those star destroyers were clearly command by Rear Admiral Cliff Clavin.

"Why it is a little known fact that if you set your speed dial to 0 and stand still no one can hit you."

You do know that he's in the Game Now, Right?

As that is Major Derlin.

Is he? What ship did he come with?

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/12/2/fleet-command/

I'm still trying to figure out rhe gravitational forces and newtonian physics of Darth Vader lifting that rebel soldier.

Having just sort of gotten back from another showing, I look at a lot of the complaints and sort of think, "Ah, thou enthralled brethren. What little sight is there, when such glory exists before thine eyes. For mine were as well, until lo', I picked but a moment to focus, and the ether did part." All this has been said before, but I kinda went to it again just to see if I could pick out a few points. So bear with me, or go to the TL;DR.

The two star destroyers were caught flat-footed. Not only were they not really moving to start with, they weren't even facing the Rebel fleet, as Beatty correctly suggested. What we did see was also one other 'issue', the lapse in situational awareness all over Scarif was disastrously bad. It looked like minutes went by before anything accurate was ever relayed, and the crews reacted as it shocked. As Tizzo pointed out, "What are you, blind?! Deploy the garrison!" And that wasn't even the most egregious example. If the Scarif shields were more closed by personal initiative of their immediate minders than by central command, and only after the attack began, how quickly would orders filter down to a stationary garrison ship with 36,000 crew? This wasn't a pitched battle, this was early in the war and the Rebels seized the initiative with a full warfleet (even mon Mothma was saying the Alliance wasn't condoning much overt military action, others in their council even said for them not to turn it into a military conflict).

As for the 'the ships weren't firing at each other', I didn't think so on first viewing either. But then I looked, and sure enough, the destroyers were firing a -lot- in quite a few scenes. Even the rebel corvettes and Dorenean gunships were attacking. The only ones I didn't see fire was the Nebulon B's and the MC75. Frankly, a lot of the effect was lost by ships firing 'into the edge of the screen' where we didn't see much in the way of point A to point B impacts to confirm which green lasers hit which rebel ships and what red beams blipped off Imperial hulls. We have no idea how many Rebel ships were lost prior to the Devastator's arrival, and we probably won't know till it's released to home video so we can count them. But, we know that they lost at least one corvette well before the Devastator showed up (its spine exploded mid-shot). I seem to remember a GR-75 either hit or having been screened by another ship that was hit in the same scene.

We know that in a lot of situations, ISD's don't just have their shields up all the time (Needa specifically ordered them up in ESB only after he personally saw the Falcon reorient from escape to attack. We also don't know how long it takes to raise shields), so it's hard to say what effect they had. But the major ion torpedo attacks happened after the shield generator/emitter (the domes have always included at least the shield emitters) was toast. That one ship was definitely at a disadvantage. When that Hammerhead nailed the stricken ship, it bounced into the trench lip and gashed that, but didn't breach the main hull, then it seemed to have jumped and skidded down the trench lip until getting caught in the corner lip nearer to the prow. That same bloody corvette kept pushing it even after the second ISD was sliced in two. We see it right up until the moment the ISD impacted the gate where that part of the ship isn't shown, but that Hammerhead had full burn right near the front third of the ship to push its bow and orient it as it needed (just like the previously mentioned tugs do to larger vessels). Those ISD's were deployed close, almost one on top of another, so I can't see how that would have been avoided. And it did certainly strike the plate armour and direct it up into the batteries, then the upper decks. I'd wager Norsehound is entirely correct; the inter-deck armour is likely quite a bit weaker than the external plating, made all the worse at them being caught at a 90 degree angle like a trap rather than being able to deflect the force of the impact away.

TL;DR: A full Rebel war fleet got the jump on a non-battle ready garrison force before the Galactic Civil war really began in earnest. Results were as expected.