Warp Perception + Crush = Win

Can my character be in one room > use warp perception to view a wholly other room and thusly using say crush in that other room to indirectly attack foes from afar thus keeping my character safe from harm for the ultimate win every time? LMFAO

- what if there are doors and thick walls between me and my targets > i.e. I can't feel their vibrations (if that's the "explanation presented") > otherwise this should include closed doors / portals between me next said "next room" > I'm thinking this is like a magic invisible third eye (aka wizard eye) I can fly around thru walls and stuff?

Warp Perception

The psyker opens his senses to the Warp, allowing unnatural

tendrils of energy to augment his own perceptions. His flesh no

longer limited, he casts his gaze wider and hungrily scents prey

from farther afield.

Value: 100 xp

Prerequisite: Willpower 35

Action: Half Action

Focus Power: Challenging (+0) Psyniscience test

Range: Self

Sustained: Half Action

Subtype: Concentration

Effect: The psyker gains the Unnatural Senses (X) trait, where the

X value is equal to the psy rating multiplied by 10.

Unnatual Senses

The creature can perceive its surroundings using senses other

than sight or hearing, such as special organs, fine hairs, or some

other disturbing ability. This trait always includes a range in metres

indicated by the number in parentheses (X).

Crush

Rather than using his abilities to turn inanimate objects into

weapons, the telekine focuses directly on his enemy to squeeze

him in an invisible fist of power. Unless the target can repel the

psychokinetic assault, he is bludgeoned horridly. Even should he

survive, the overwhelming psychic force nonetheless pins him in

place under a tremendous weight.

Value: 300 xp

Prerequisite: Willpower 45

Action: Half Action

Focus Power: Challenging (+0) Opposed Willpower test

Range: 10 metres x psy rating

Sustained: No

Subtype: Attack, Concentration

Effect: The psyker nominates a single target in range and line of

sight who opposes this power with a Toughness test. If the target

fails to resist the power, it suffers the attack below.

In essence I'm trying to mimic this ability from another roleplaying game...

INDIRECT (FLAT 1-4 POINTS)

A ranged effect with this modifier can originate from a point other than the user, ignoring cover between the user and the target, such as walls and other intervening barriers, so long as they do not provide cover between the effect’s origin point and the target. An Indirect effect normally originates from a fixed point directed away from you. In some cases, an Indirect effect may count as a surprise attack (see Surprise Attack ).

Indirect 1 : the effect originates from a fixed point away from you.

Indirect 2 : the effect can come from any point away from you or a fixed point in a fixed direction (not away from you).

Indirect 3 : The effect can come from any point in a fixed direction (not away from you) or a fixed point in any direction.

Indirect 4 : The effect can originate from any point and aim in any direction, including towards you (hitting a target in front of you from behind, for example).

Obviously it depends on how you rule it. I thoroughly deny that Warp Perception does anything more than augment your already-present sight, and is still limited by line-of-sight obstructions. Obviously that stems from the fact that humans used sight in order to perceive, typically, so with other creatures it means different things.

The worst thing you can do is take it literally and allow a psyker to look 80 feet away through fifty 10-inch-thick walls and Sunburst an entire room.

Yeah. No. I'm good. Better-sight works for me. I'd rather keep the insane level of broken interpretations out of my games.

Actually I allow things like that for the psykers in my campaign. I initially allowed it and now I'm stuck with it Like TheWorldSmith said it is really, really overpowered. One psyker in my group has Warp Perception and Dominate, and let's put it like that, the suicide-probability in rooms adjacent to him are pretty high. In the beginning I as the GM had a hard time with presenting challenging encounters but I adapted and now I manage .

Rule-wise Warp Perception gives the psyker the Unnatural Senses trait and there (on page 139) it clearly states "the creature can perceive its surroundings using senses other than sight or hearing ..." so I would claim it does not just augment the already-present sight. Also in the description of Warp Perception it says "His flesh no longer limited, he casts his gaze wider and hungrily scents prey from farther afield." I interpreted this as being able to somehow sense through walls and whatnot, maybe I'm mistaken. I'm interested, how do you actually rule this "better-sight" WorldSmith? I think it really sucks that some of the descriptions of Psychic Powers are so vague and for some other the general description at the start outright contradicts the effect description at the end ...

Rule-wise Warp Perception gives the psyker the Unnatural Senses trait and there (on page 139) it clearly states "the creature can perceive its surroundings using senses other than sight or hearing ..." so I would claim it does not just augment the already-present sight. Also in the description of Warp Perception it says "His flesh no longer limited, he casts his gaze wider and hungrily scents prey from farther afield." I interpreted this as being able to somehow sense through walls and whatnot, maybe I'm mistaken. I'm interested, wow [how?] do you actually rule this "better-sight" WorldSmith?

That's certainly one interpretation of many. I'm happy you adapated and are now enjoying it, but I've just been blown away by it and can't accept it. It goes well and truly beyond any levels of balance that I find acceptable.

In my games (with my interpretation) it's allows the Psyker to not be inhibited by Darkness and other obscurities, such as Smoke or Blind, effectively giving the psyker both the Sonar Sense and Dark Sight Traits (which I also rule as working on a line-of-sight basis). This prevents challenging issues for the GM, balance-breaking disasters through several layers of bulkheads, and still gives the psyker a potential of significant advantages and fallbacks in many situations.

Unnatural Senses tho is

Humans have a multitude of senses . Sight (ophthalmoception), hearing (audioception), taste (gustaoception), smell (olfacoception or olfacception), and touch (tactioception) are the five traditionally recognized.

sight

hearing

taste

smell

touch

To me if it doesn't fall under one of those five categories > its not a "sense"

Thoughts / Advise (this is very very critical to my player and I don't want him thinking I am nerfing him)

Good descriptor on the senses (plus "super" senses)

http://www.d20herosrd.com/6-powers/effects/effect-descriptions/senses-sensory/

Visual

Auditory

Olfactory

Tactile

Mental (sixth sense)

Morbid

I think Unnatural Senses do grant something that is not directly connected to eyesight as astropaths basically have to rely on their psychic sense to "see" after being soulbound. I'm unsure exactly how it's meant to be interpreted but I tend to allow Unnatural Senses to "see" blurred shapes and other vague warp traces rather than completely substituting regular sight for their psychic vision. They are still blind after all.

In addition, I often use the "Superman can't see through lead walls" excuse and basically say that any solid object greater than 5 cm in thickness prevents the Unnatural Senses, which is sort of similar to the limitation on auspex scanning through solid walls. So while a psyker cannot see through adamantium bulkheads or ferrocrete bunker walls using their psychic senses, they can easily sense that someone has been tied up and thrown in the back of a car.

I know what senses are... I'm just using a balanced interpretation. There's no necessity for the power to represent all, some, or anything more than one of them. The ways in which you can interpret this power is infinite, but the way that I do it ensures balance while preventing cheese, and additionally still provides worth-while bonuses to players.

In my games (with my interpretation) it's allows the Psyker to not be inhibited by Darkness and other obscurities, such as Smoke or Blind, effectively giving the psyker both the Sonar Sense and Dark Sight Traits (which I also rule as working on a line-of-sight basis). This prevents challenging issues for the GM, balance-breaking disasters through several layers of bulkheads, and still gives the psyker a potential of significant advantages and fallbacks in many situations.

All I know is in 40k they are lucky "Warp Perception" doesn't act like Astral Perception from Earthdawn / Shadowrun LOL

in my games i actually allow warp perception to give you "sight" behind a wall or an obstacle but as unnatural sense states its a boost on your other senses. so imagine how well a character can actually pinpoint enemies with a sonar like ability or tremorsense or anything else. so i would allow him to know in general what is going on inside the room but he couldnt use this to manifest other powers. crush needs a line of sight and this means actually seeing your opponent. hearing your enemy or sensing him with other means doesnt count for the same reason that you cant manifest crush behind a door that you roll a perception test and hear footsteps...

Good point DarkSolstice! In future I would definitely also rule it like that but I think my players would not appreciate me changing the ruling midcampaign.

well you can be a bit generous in the beggining till they get a hang of it but restrict any abuses.

Besides, I would hope that any good group would appreciate that things that seem clearly OP may be subject to "fixes" even in an ongoing campaign. Ultimately, it is for everyone's benefit. The GM isn't the players' enemy, after all. Hopefully.

I also like Popdart's reasoning in regards to the "Superman rule". Perhaps a good compromise would be that thicker objects can still be penetrated, but that it increases the Test difficulty if you want to perceive anything useful? Psykers who grow too curious and pull the sort of stunt as mentioned in the opening post all the time will eventually just have to deal with psychic phenomena. As a bonus eltom can just shut up his critics by telling them that in the past, the walls simply weren't thick enough.

1 hour ago, Lynata said:

As a bonus eltom can just shut up his critics by telling them that in the past, the walls simply weren't thick enough.

Will do!

Aren't there things like hexagrammic wards or psi screens that can "shield" a room from psychic powers?

4 hours ago, Robin Graves said:

Aren't there things like hexagrammic wards or psi screens that can "shield" a room from psychic powers?

There definitely should be! But I don't think that I ever came across rules for that in any of the DH2 publications.

nice idea robin but i ll reserve that for a "higher level enemy". dont use it too much. a nice surprise is better than everyone having means to ward against psychic powers.

On ‎15‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 10:04 AM, DarkSolstice said:

nice idea robin but i ll reserve that for a "higher level enemy". dont use it too much. a nice surprise is better than everyone having means to ward against psychic powers.

Yeah of course. These things should be quite rare. But it's nice when the psyker goes: "Boom, everything in this room is dead, and everything in this room is dead and everyone in the next room is dead. squishy squishy!" Aaand then the last room is warded and out storms some Khornate kill cult leader roaring about "wizards" and "utter cowardism".

I still like that combo tough. reminds me of Morrowind: Summon undead behind the door you are standing in front of and wait till they have killed what was in that room.

Personally I don't think I'd allow that combo unless the psyker had a really good roll on the dice.

It's not that I find it to OP in general, but I percieve Warp Senses like just one addition to the existing senses and not something that makes a mental double of all our senses.
So in my case I've decided that warp senses can reach out and sense emotions since the warp very much is a place of raw emotion.

So the psyker can't see past a wall but maybe sense that there is something or someone who is sad/angry/frustrated on the other side - and maybe with a good roll get an understanding of how many different sources of feelings that are in there. And maybe with a 5+ DoS I'd say he could even cast another psychich power on one of the targets as he gets so much in tune with the targets emotions (and who knows how this affects the psyker).
The psyker in our group explains it to the group as if he can sense the souls of the living - which in turn makes him kinda eerie to the group which we find amusing.

My point was > it's not Wizard Eye from D&D...

"Indirect Attacks" in and of itself is a very power ability in RPGs especially if you can do the attacks remotely - reminds me of how a Rigger would play in SHADOWRUN albiet through remote control vechiles > LMFAO

There are even game systems which detail what an Indirect Attack is exactly - so yeah it is OP - even in those games where its built in intentionally.

This opens several questions, starting from what exactly one perceives. It probably have to show inanimate objects, because it's a generic sense like a sonar, not Soul Sight or something like this. Conversely, a sonar does not show exactly what vision would - telling a guardsman from a chair or identifying someone already perceived this way, but things like written text or even colour of the uniform may well be unavailable.

And there's "line of sight" question, yes.

But even if it's supposed to work, the psyker tries to open a forceful Warp connection through an existing Warp connection. For me, this sounds much like he paws his way in the dark, and then whacks whatever is found with a club without removing the feeling hand first. Which may have certain downsides.

I'd allow it, but with a WP test. Adjustments equal to the initial invocation of Warp Perception , updated as relevant. Perhaps with penalties for extra maintained powers plus one (since the psyker tries to do two things at once).

• Pass - the attack breaks the initial connection, but there are no side effects other than being "blinded" for now.
• Fail - not only Warp Perception breaks, but the psyker is stunned (basically, self-inflicted mental flashbang).
• Phenomena - oh well, that's what you get for messing with Warp some more while already messing with Warp.

On 14.02.2017 at 5:05 AM, Robin Graves said:

Aren't there things like hexagrammic wards or psi screens that can "shield" a room from psychic powers?

In DH1 armour with Hexagrammatic Wards gives 2x AP and +20 to opposed tests vs. psychic powers (and negates effect of Warp Weapon), we may assume the effect is the same with larger wards of the same type.

Null-field rooms are null, complete Warp no-go zones.

33 minutes ago, TBeholder said:

I'd allow it, but with a WP test. Adjustments equal to the initial invocation of Warp Perception , updated as relevant. Perhaps with penalties for extra maintained powers plus one (since the psyker tries to do two things at once).

• Pass - the attack breaks the initial connection, but there are no side effects other than being "blinded" for now.
• Fail - not only Warp Perception breaks, but the psyker is stunned (basically, self-inflicted mental flashbang).
• Phenomena - oh well, that's what you get for messing with Warp some more while already messing with Warp.

Sounds interesting. What exactly to you mean by "Adjustments equal to the initial invocation of Warp perception, updated as relevant"?

23 hours ago, eltom13 said:

Sounds interesting. What exactly to you mean by "Adjustments equal to the initial invocation of Warp perception, updated as relevant"?

Whatever applies to Focus Power test, same adjustments - effective Psy rating, Discipline mastery, using foci, etc. But with +0 WP test instead of +0 Psyniscience, since it's about handling backlash, rather than doing it right. Some things may have changed, of course, mostly more or less penalties for sustaining powers if the psyker added or dropped some.