I was going to reply to a couple of the threads on here about the proliferation of squadrons and flotillas, but decided to just start a new post.

I really like the current meta.

I've never been a big squadron player. If you know me, I like running gunlines or other formations of capital ships with squadrons and small ships in supporting roles. I'm still doing that now and it works great.

What I am loving is that I can finally bring a well rounded fleet that can do everything. I can have big hard hitting ships, I can have fast support ships, I can throw in some flotillas for support and additional activations, and I can do that while still bringing more than a token squadron force.

Before flotillas you just couldn't pull that off. High activation count fleets relied on Rogue if they had squadrons, which limited numbers. Heavy squadron fleets were often severely out activated. Big hitters would either have a couple of support ships or squadrons, but not both.

So, now you can build a well rounded fleet. Ya know, a fleet like the Rebels used at Endor or Scarif. With cruisers, frigates, and flotillas supporting enough squadrons to both attack and defend. Or fleets like the Imperials employ on Rebels with ISDs supported by Arquitens, Gozantis, and swarms of TIEs. That's pretty amazing.

Now, you can still skew if you want to and go with max squadrons and ships built as carriers to support them. Or all ship fleets with only token squadrons to defend them, or MSUs supported by Rogues. Really, whatever you want. No one archetype is dominating the current regionals. Flotillas are there, but they are enabling the strategies being used. Not all of them are BCC squadron pushers. Many players are using flotillas plus Comm Nets to support their heavy hitters.

Lots of squadrons are not mandatory for success. We've had multiple winners with minimal squadron screens and multiple Top 4's with no squadrons at all. In fact for Top 4 finishes, no squadron lists are seriously outperforming expectations.

Right now though I am just loving that I can bring a well rounded fleet that reflects the fleets I see on screen in Star Wars.

Well said!

My current fleet has a large ship, medium ship, small ship, flotilla, and 80 points of squadrons. Haven't lost a game with it having played opponents from 134 points of squads down to 24 points.

I see no problem with where things are.

I'm enjoying the current direction as well. I'm a little hopeful that with Wave 6 we'll see a point increase to 450 or 500 points in order to better facilitate exactly what the OP has said here.

Excellent post!!! My sentiments exactly! CC seems like perfect timing given the game's maturity at this point

some fleets one can use in this "too restrictive" meta:

-two medium ships for 200 pts + 2 flotillas for 50 pts, one admiral for 25 pts, 125 pts squadrons.

(or more expensive admiral/flotillas, you know; and like 100-something squadron pts)

-one large ship for 130 points, 2 small ships for 100 points, one flotilla and admiral for 50 points, 120 points squadrons.

-one large ship for 130 points, 1 medium ship for 100 points, one small ship for 50 points, one flotilla and admiral for 50 points, 100 points squadrons,

-four small ships for 200 points, two flotillas for 50 points, one admiral for 25 points, 125 points squadrons. (and if you think this is so much more powrful than the rest, think again cause the moment it sees admonition/demolisher properly played it can get destroyed. same with lucky gunnery teams)

...and many others. there have been lists in this regionals season that have done well with different setups, i'm just stating the NORMAL 4+ activations/lots of squadrons ideas. to illustrate how it is not realy restrictive.

just take a look at this regionals and see HOW MANY DIFFERENT ADMIRALS MADE IT TO TOP 4s.

yes, a fleet of full medium and large ships isnt exactly viable-but realy, IT NEVER WAS. wave 1 was different points limit, and wave 2 onwards, DEMSU and rhymerballs would obliterate any build with lots of medium/large ships spam. so, we are in the most balanced era of armada. believe it or not. i was a whiner once. so i am not some optimist dreamer. plus, i have switched to Imps now, so its not like "i'm just glad for rebels winning" (hint: look at top 4s, percentage difference compared to participation isnt realy high) its just how it is.

Oh. Well if we have anecdotal evidence prior to the release of three squadron expansions, then I guess we can put all concerns to rest.

other balance examples:

PICK any supposedly weak ship . i will tell you why it is playable.

ISD? an ISD & 4 flotillas list can be one heck of a delivery system and can totaly be supported by lots of squadrons. equip with lead shots to ensure those accs to kill flotillas.

Liberty? another awesome antiflotilla setup can greatly benefit you.

VSD? STATISTICALY THE BEST IMPERIAL SHIP. look in the regionals data how many top placing imperials used it!!! its just NOT a mini-ISD, it neds to be specialised (usualy in a carrier role).

Raider?OEs & agent kallus & instigator. carve squadrons dead.

the list goes on and on.

in another wargame, i just bought a unit i liked the models, played over the past week and saw it is USELESS. like, utter garbage and can never be played, and almost everyone agrees with me. so be glad for what we have here. everything can be played but the cards-and even then, what cards are good changes with the meta (remember "useless" h9s?)

Raider?OEs & agent kallus & instigator. carve squadrons dead.

Oh. Well if we have anecdotal evidence prior to the release of three squadron expansions, then I guess we can put all concerns to rest.

Evidence that a wide variety of fleets are currently successful: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jHYRewqhbVX6HSaWHNAPHTtPxW2uAaVTzYMq5D0-0pg/edit?usp=sharing

Oh. Well if we have anecdotal evidence prior to the release of three squadron expansions, then I guess we can put all concerns to rest.

Evidence that a wide variety of fleets are currently successful: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jHYRewqhbVX6HSaWHNAPHTtPxW2uAaVTzYMq5D0-0pg/edit?usp=sharing

Oh. Well if we have anecdotal evidence prior to the release of three squadron expansions, then I guess we can put all concerns to rest.

Evidence that a wide variety of fleets are currently successful: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jHYRewqhbVX6HSaWHNAPHTtPxW2uAaVTzYMq5D0-0pg/edit?usp=sharing

Are these from the future? I'm trying to see how this address "prior to the release of three..."

well, we can't know that there will be no problems, but it seems unlikely that if a wide variety of builds work now, then the new squads will break the game.

But, I'll put a tracker in to break out wave 5 squads from wave 1 & 2 squads. If we see wave 5 making up much more than 50% of fighters in the regionals winners, then I'd agree that they may be too good. I'm expecting that they will have a smaller impact than wave 3 did on the meta. (as of today, wave 1 = 800 fighters, wave 2=303)

Oh. Well if we have anecdotal statistically-significant evidence prior to the release of three squadron expansions, then I guess we can put all concerns to rest.

FTFY.

And statistically significant evidence that the meta is just fine prior to the release of all those squadrons is a little more credible than alarmist wildass guesses.

Let's just wait and see, k?

Where are you getting this data?

Where are you getting this data?

Shmitty's Regionals data collection project.

Raider?OEs & agent kallus & instigator. carve squadrons dead.

What a waste of what, 70 points?

60 points. raider 1, instigator, kallus, ordnance experts/assault proton torpedoes. i wouldnt call rerollable black dice with assault proton torpedoes wasted points. specially when they cann kill Intel through rerollable dual (or even triple if the intel is unique like dengar) sprays.

I agree with you 100%, Shmitty.

I'll also throw in the fact that with the new objectives and squadrons we are in a time where everything is SO up in the air too.

It's pretty amazing how little I can assume now about what is going to be on the other side of the table.

I'd expect a lot of familiar fleet compositions for awhile in the upcoming Regionals. Only because of comfort level. But soon the differences in fleets will be very very cool

Despite my reservations on the squad front...

I do like where the game is heading post CC/W5. I like the variety, the alternative gameplay, and the new options especially on the Imperial side of the fence.

I hope CC draws players in. Even if it's not tournament play, I'd like to see some life locally in the game. Otherwise I'm convinced the local scene is never destined to grow.

I can't wait to see someone try and pull off a Yvaris double tap from a crossed the board...and have his ship smited as soon as possible.

Wave 5 is awesome

I would like to point out that your own data supports several assertions I have made elsewhere, which is that the meta is:

• Favorable to Rebels (and they are 71% of winners, as opposed to 29% of the Imperials)
• Favorable to Flotillas (90% of rebel winners use a GR-75 and 100% of Imperial winners use a Gozanti)
• Unfavorable to large ships (20% of rebel winners use the MC80 pickle, 10% use the Liberty, and 25% use the ISD)
• Average fleet size and average deployments are both highest for winners than any other category
• 29% of winners use a large ship across both factions, but 93% use a flotilla

Again, I'm also not saying I am unhappy with the game. I'm just saying MSU is clearly a dominant strategy right now and that while you can play around it sometimes but not always at Regionals, the fact that large ships failed significantly at worlds (where, essentially, you have very few weak players) only reinforces to me the trend that Shmitty's data is already showing!

To reiterate: I'm not saying this is bad, it's just a thing. I'm only making the prediction that large ships will slowly fade into obscurity unless something shakes up the meta.

Edit: if there's one thing I don't like, it's actually the Rebel / Imperial disparity. That is what I am hoping wave 5 actually shapes up, because the bore will be going to tournaments that slowly evolve to be 80% rebels or more.

Edit: if there's one thing I don't like, it's actually the Rebel / Imperial disparity. That is what I am hoping wave 5 actually shapes up, because the bore will be going to tournaments that slowly evolve to be 80% rebels or more.

Colonel Jandon and the Arquitten title.

These turn Imperials from unexciting formation fleets into a flexible unit that I want to play.

I might be defecting.

Edit: if there's one thing I don't like, it's actually the Rebel / Imperial disparity. That is what I am hoping wave 5 actually shapes up, because the bore will be going to tournaments that slowly evolve to be 80% rebels or more.

Colonel Jandon and the Arquitten title.

These turn Imperials from unexciting formation fleets into a flexible unit that I want to play.

I might be defecting.

I would like to point out that your own data supports several assertions I have made elsewhere, which is that the meta is:

• Favorable to Rebels (and they are 71% of winners, as opposed to 29% of the Imperials)
• Favorable to Flotillas (90% of rebel winners use a GR-75 and 100% of Imperial winners use a Gozanti)
• Unfavorable to large ships (20% of rebel winners use the MC80 pickle, 10% use the Liberty, and 25% use the ISD)
• Average fleet size and average deployments are both highest for winners than any other category
• 29% of winners use a large ship across both factions, but 93% use a flotilla

Comparing current regionals season to prior:

Rebels are more prevalent across the ranking categories this season than Imps were last season.

flotilla's took a bunch of spots away from CR90s. MC80s, Raiders & ISD's to a lesser extent & depending on which bracket you look at.

unfavorable to larges: ISD representation declined a lot from top 4 to winner (47% to 25%), as did interdictors (24 to 0). This may be a problem, or it could be small sample size. Note the MC80 representation last season- 27% top 4, 67% winners. If the winners trend towards the top 4 numbers, we will be pretty consistent with last season. (47% vs 52%) One other concern about ISD's specifically: they were over-represented in the bottom 25%. I think that warrants a deeper dive into the numbers to see if we can isolate why some ISD fleets didn't work. (similar effect for MC30's as well, but they are a high-risk, high reward ship, and we probably should see them succeed or die)

It would be nice to see points spent on squadrons in the data. A lot of the top lists I'm seeing have more points in squadrons than any individual ship. Ships over 100 points tend to get focused on, but if your most expensive "ship" is 134 points of squads, it's very hard for your opponent to get those points from you, unless he also went all in on squads.

check the squadrons tab on the regionals data, I updated it to break it down by rank bracket. of the 168 lists with squadrons, 79 had 100+ points. This is pretty consistently 50% across all brackets.

I'll slowly work on getting the other squadron data points broken down across rank brackets.