If you hate it so much stop playing.

We are a better community than that

I know we are, but when someone refuses to listen to every argument you can throw at them (7 pages) there is nothing else you can do. It seems more like everyone is being trolled and this argument will run around in circles.

Like I said earlier, this same topic WILL pop up 2 weeks after wave 5+CC hits. And some people will listen to reason, others will not. If you refuse to accept the fact that squads are a part of the game and want to start the hate-train, you may as well leave the community.

I understand there is an overwhelming amount of squads. I may have been among the first to say FFG has to stop releasing so many. We have enough. There are so many aces and combinations, the lists will be endless. I like diversity, but I don't like this massive bolus of diverstiy we have to swallow right now. I hope wave 6,7,8 are only ships so we can break from the squadron based meta.

Yet, you refuse to listen to any argument against what you believe? Man, you are starting to sound like a flaming liberal. You say squadrons aren't bad, ok, fine, proof? Reasoning? I have been saying, from the get go, that squadrons, as they are currently implemented in the game, are bad. They cost to little for all that you get for them. I also suggested a few fixes. Agree or disagree, that's your option. My conclusions may be right, may be wrong, and again, that is your right to decide. However, attacking the person for their thoughts is always wrong. Putting words in peoples mouths "threads" is always wrong.

I didn't say the theory of them was bad, that FFG should never have had them in the game, nothing. That was all you guys putting words in my mouth. I even acknowledged that they were a part of the game from day 1. All still true.

I have heard many people say "wait till wave 5 drops"..... and that's it. Well, they offer nothing more than "wait". No reason, no backup. No, this is a list I would like to try, and here is why.....

People have stated that double AA is an option, and it is, to be sure, but again, more than just saying "take aa builds".

Proof, backup, logic, reasoning. So far, I haven't heard that from anyone.

I tried reading this thread and to put serious thought into the discussion but I can't. Squadrons are just as much of an importance as capital ships in Star Wars, if not more, in every single movie, show, comic or book. They are an absolute important feature to Star Wars and always will be.

An MC80 did not save the Galaxy from the dreaded Death Star I or II, it was the squadrons that defeated them and the Executor SSD because the Capital Ships couldn't do any real damage to any of them. That's just the reality and I'm sorry if the lore of Star Wars isn't your thing. Star Trek is of course totally about Capital Ships and their games don't include squadrons. Have you tried them?

So, if capital ships are not worth it, why have them in the first place. When you can have an X-Wing for 149,999 credits, you know that they are MUCH cheaper than any major capital ship.

Man, you are starting to sound like a flaming liberal.

Man, you are starting to sound like a flaming liberal.

As a Canadian I find this confusing. I thought liberal meant balanced, is that an insult now?

Man, you are starting to sound like a flaming liberal.

For someone who is all about that "logic and reasoning" I find it ironic you are resorting to an ad hominem reaction that has nothing at all to do with this game.

Man, you are starting to sound like a flaming liberal.

Armada was designed, and sold to the public, as a game about large ships fighting each other.

Was it?

Yes it was.

so why were there so many fighters in the starter box??? every Star wars capital ship is a carrier and fighters are their long range weapon systems.

Why is this thread so hostile? Rogue One just came out, people should be happy as F.

Why is this thread so hostile? Rogue One just came out, people should be happy as F.

Some of us won't get to see it until August.

If you're looking for the specific MC30 swarm I use, it's here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/231399-moar-shrimps/?p=2466402 I didn't post it before because I'm not advocating people necessarily use the same build I do, just pointing out that there are all-ship options out there for those that want them. I don't pretend to know them all, but I do have definitive evidence that they work because I do it myself.

Ard, just curious, but have you ever tried Cracken vs Squadrons? I'm looking at a similar list idea and wondering if you feel one is better than another. Assuming competently driven MC30s, Cracken ships seem like they'd neuter squadron attacks most of the time (B wings being the exception, but you know, try not to steer into those...) while still letting you try out a similar battle plan. Just wondering if you have any experience before I try it out myself with some crazy ideas (i'm not sure I'm brave enough to go squadronless though!)

If you're looking for the specific MC30 swarm I use, it's here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/231399-moar-shrimps/?p=2466402 I didn't post it before because I'm not advocating people necessarily use the same build I do, just pointing out that there are all-ship options out there for those that want them. I don't pretend to know them all, but I do have definitive evidence that they work because I do it myself.

Ard, just curious, but have you ever tried Cracken vs Squadrons? I'm looking at a similar list idea and wondering if you feel one is better than another. Assuming competently driven MC30s, Cracken ships seem like they'd neuter squadron attacks most of the time (B wings being the exception, but you know, try not to steer into those...) while still letting you try out a similar battle plan. Just wondering if you have any experience before I try it out myself with some crazy ideas (i'm not sure I'm brave enough to go squadronless though!)

Wait, never mind, just reread Cracken. Only ship attacks, never mind.

Man, you are starting to sound like a flaming liberal.

Oh wow. I'll take Irrelevant Sh** for 1600, Alex.

I tried reading this thread and to put serious thought into the discussion but I can't. Squadrons are just as much of an importance as capital ships in Star Wars, if not more, in every single movie, show, comic or book. They are an absolute important feature to Star Wars and always will be.

An MC80 did not save the Galaxy from the dreaded Death Star I or II, it was the squadrons that defeated them and the Executor SSD because the Capital Ships couldn't do any real damage to any of them. That's just the reality and I'm sorry if the lore of Star Wars isn't your thing. Star Trek is of course totally about Capital Ships and their games don't include squadrons. Have you tried them?

So, if capital ships are not worth it, why have them in the first place. When you can have an X-Wing for 149,999 credits, you know that they are MUCH cheaper than any major capital ship.

Star Wars gets most of its influence from WWII and a Battleship was the most powerful ship in the world until Aircrafts sink it in matter of minutes. (A Battleship's biggest defense is its large cannons made to sink large ships but they are useless against small planes.) How did the Navies of the world solve that? They made Aircraft Carriers to transport the Squadrons with their Battleships to defend them but unprotected the Aircraft Carrier is defenseless against even a Destroyer. It's a Rock, Paper, Scissor battle and the best Navies brought all three, they didn't rely on the Rock to do it all.

It's basic strategy based on the tools available.

You guys are the best.

And also I saw earlier that someone said a Fleet is the make up of the large capitals and they felt mislead. That is not the definition of a fleet. A fleet is made up of not only the large capital ships but also the support ships, planes on an aircraft carrier and the men serving on board the ships themselves. It's the whole kit-and-caboodle not just the Big elements.

Aaaand savin' that bad boy for later.

Man, you are starting to sound like a flaming liberal.

Oh wow. I'll take Irrelevant Sh** for 1600, Alex.

I understand why this argument isn't going anywhere. We are obviously dealing with a Trump supporter

But really emmjay, if you have to resort to insults to get your point across, no one will listen to you. Everyone loses their cool. I've done it. You're doing it. Attack the argument at hand, hold no grudges, and move on. Once wave 5 hits, this thread will be dropped from the 1st page (hopefully) and everyone will get on with their lives, until someone else complains about squads being OP and needs a nerf. Then the circle of life begins again.

When the circle comes back around, have a stronger argument, either one backed with data, or a very strong emotional argument, such as saying you have yet to beat a Tie/D+Rhymer list and we can all empathize.

And here is all the data we have on the current Regionals season. 144 fleet lists, the winners of 14 different event all broken out.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jHYRewqhbVX6HSaWHNAPHTtPxW2uAaVTzYMq5D0-0pg/edit?usp=sharing

I personally don't see any evidence that squadrons are broken or too dominant, but you may see something I don't. Have a look.

Man, you are starting to sound like a flaming liberal.

Oh wow. I'll take Irrelevant Sh** for 1600, Alex.

When the circle comes back around, have a stronger argument, either one backed with data

Wow. Lot of people talking about data. Let me tell you, emmjay knows all about data. He has the best data. Nobody has better data than emmjay. When the circle comes back around, you're going to see just how good his data is.

Edit: China

All right, I'm going to give this a shot emmjay, and reply specifically to points you raised in your first post.

I believe that for their point cost, compared to what starships can do, squadrons are under costed, or at least have way to much health for their price. That, coupled with flotillias and Bomber Command for multiple bomber reroll's, squadrons are necessary, and a max point squadron section is almost required.

Sorry, I'm not sure where the max points squadron thing came from....you haven't elaborated on that. A modest Combat Air Patrol dedicated to antisquadron combat should be more than enough to hold off the bombers until your ships have done what they need to. Wave 5 will only add to that - specifically because it adds so many antisquadron capabilities to your CAP. Snipe to stop Intel, Relay so your fighters keep shooting, frickin' Valen Rudor and Ciena Ree who can't be shot at (sort of) and are great at antisquadron work, Tien Nub to break of Rhymerballs...the list goes on. Your CAP has more tools available to it in wave 5, and bombers will find it more difficult to get through. CAP will kill squadrons trying to use their Strategic key word. CAP is life.

Let me break it down this way. The GR-75 Combat Retrofit (24 points) has a single blue die to deal with starships, and another blue to deal with squadrons. It boasts a total of 4 points of damage absorption "life", with only a single scatter to try stop damage. The single evade is good for long and medium distances, but is worthless close up. So, as long as the attacker is able to deal 4 damage and have a single accuracy (or 2), the GR-75 is all but guaranteed dead. And that doesn't include all the other things that the ship can do, like upgrades that it can take. So, for 24 points you get a really good ship.

Now, lets compare that to a single A-Wing squadron (11points). It has speed 5 so it goes faster than the GR-75. It has the same "life" at 4. It has a better anti-squadron armament at 3 blues, and can attack ships at range 1 with a single black die. And, it has an ability to attack with 2 dice against a squadron that just attacked it. True, it doesn't get any tokens or have the ability to take upgrades. But, for a single A-Wing Squadron, you are getting a lot of bang for your buck, and if you want to compare points to points, you can take 2 A-Wings for less than the cost of the GR-75.

The error in your analysis here is that you cannot directly compare hull points in a squadron vs hull points in a ship - or their antisquadron firepower either. Sure, A-wings have the same "hull". But that completely ignores the whole antisquadron vs antiship distinction. Sure, A-wings have 3 blue dice against a single squadron. A transport has a single black - against as many squadrons as are in range and in arc. Simply comparing the two and saying "therefore, 2 awings > 1 GR-75 due to dice" just is plain wrong. There are other reasons why you may consider 2 A-wings in your fleet instead of 1 transport (say.....fighter cover for your ships, engaging enemy bombers, etc) but a comparison based on dice just misses so much.

Even worse is the Y-Wing(10 points) when compared to the GR-75. It can move about the same speed as the GR-75, can attack squadrons with 2 blue dice, and ships with a single black die. And, because the Y-Wing is a bomber, the crit on the black die counts as more damage, and the ship can be affected by cards that affect bombers (I'm looking at you Bomber Command). I am ignoring heavy as it has no affect with/against starships. All that, and 6 points of hull. So. no single attack can actually kill the Y-Wing, and it generally takes 2-3 squadrons to attack the Y-Wing be able to kill it, as accuracies mean nothing, as well as crits. Finally, for 20 points you get two of them.

Again, you're missing a key point here. Your 10-point Y-wing can be completely prevented from shooting at ships by a 7-point Z-95, or 8-point TIE. You're wrong about no single attack killing a Y-wing (Interceptor + Howlrunner+FC can achieve that), but the point is you don't have to. Lock them down, and your ships are protected. Yes, Intel was a major wrench in the works but Intel can be defeated by good positioning (and now, Snipe).

So, how do we fix this problem? First off, starships need to be able to deal more damage a turn against squadrons. Or, instead of rolling dice to see if you damage squadrons, have a set amount of damage on each arc that the ship can do, and the player can put that damage on how many ship(s) they want. So, like, the GR-75 might be able to deal 1 damage to a single squadron (guaranteed) out of each arc, an ISD might be able to deal 6 damage per arc. That's total, so against 2 A-Wings 1 would be dead, the other at 1/2 health. But, against a couple of YT-1300's, 1 would be at 1 hull, the other at full hull.

While it's an interesting idea, it would actually be worse for ships than the current system - where an ISD-2 can deal up to 20+ damage against a rhymerball by itself, in one turn. A Glad-II with Ruthless Strategists is even more vicious - I've had my Y-wing fleet completely decimated by exactly such a combination. I'm glad I didn't encounter AA-based fleets too often, but I fully expect to see more in this meta. You won't kill individual squads as quickly, but you'll kill the fighters as a whole more quickly. You'll need a modest CAP to lock down bombers and pick off wounded squadrons, but it's very scary to squadron builds.

Or, reduce the number of hull points each squadron has. Reducing the amount of hull a squadron has allows them to die easier to not only other squadrons, but ships as well. I can easily see a reduction of 1 hull point for every squadron.

Finally, I can see a squadron being reduced in points from 134 to 100. While that won't make the problem go away, per se, it does make the issue a little less hard to deal with. Or, make Bomber Command unique.

And now, on to wave 5. Right now, there is very little in the wave that I see changing the squadron heavy mindset. And, some of it, like Relay, only makes it worse. True, they did come out with some nice new abilities, but how many of them can really, truly change the meta? The ships? Same thing.

Wave 5 won't change the squadron "heavy" mindset because squadrons are still only 1/3 of your fleet, max. By definition, Armada is still capital ship focused because 2/3 of your fleet is not squadrons! What I think you're saying is you'd like to see a change in the bomber-heavy mindset. And for more, see my reply to the first bit above. CAP is life. Now go blow some ships up with your other ships, while your CAP deals with the bombers.

Maturin's post is good and covers most of the points.

I guess the thing I don't get is that a Y-wing doesn't cost 10 points. It costs 10 + x where x=all that extra stuff necessary to make the Y-wing as amazing as it is. By the time it's all said and done you have 50-60 points on the table minimum (GR75+BCC+EHB+3Ys=61) in order to do 4-5 damage to a ship a turn. Sounds a whole lot like a Corvette pricepoint to me. Whats the beef?

And we haven't even added in escorts and Intel yet. Sure squadrons give you bit more flexibility in some ways (not needing to worry about controlling speed, easier firing mechanics) but they come with a lot of disadvantages too (Can be locked down, can be kept from attacking ships, can't live on the board by themselves, etc)

So, how do we fix this problem? First off, starships need to be able to deal more damage a turn against squadrons. Or, instead of rolling dice to see if you damage squadrons, have a set amount of damage on each arc that the ship can do, and the player can put that damage on how many ship(s) they want. So, like, the GR-75 might be able to deal 1 damage to a single squadron (guaranteed) out of each arc, an ISD might be able to deal 6 damage per arc. That's total, so against 2 A-Wings 1 would be dead, the other at 1/2 health. But, against a couple of YT-1300's, 1 would be at 1 hull, the other at full hull.

While it's an interesting idea, it would actually be worse for ships than the current system - where an ISD-2 can deal up to 20+ damage against a rhymerball by itself, in one turn. A Glad-II with Ruthless Strategists is even more vicious - I've had my Y-wing fleet completely decimated by exactly such a combination. I'm glad I didn't encounter AA-based fleets too often, but I fully expect to see more in this meta. You won't kill individual squads as quickly, but you'll kill the fighters as a whole more quickly. You'll need a modest CAP to lock down bombers and pick off wounded squadrons, but it's very scary to squadron builds.

Right now I am more of the opinion that ships do to much damage to squadrons. I saw one player who used sixteen TiE fighters that got caught up in a scrum with two A-Wings, and Two X-Wings. There was also one Nebulon-B Escort Frigate. In two turns all sixteen TiE's were dead and he managed to kill all of the X-Wings (two squadrons). Almost all the damage was done by the ship, the squadrons just tied them up. Now I could see a way to kind of do both, make them stronger and weaker at the same time. By giving them more anti-squadron dice, but also only letting them shoot at individual squadrons in place of each in the sector. This would also allow upgrades or specials such as dedicated AA ships.

Not sure if there's much value in replying, but I'll chime in as disappointed in the Squadron heavy meta. Assuming one stand is a single "Squadron", you should see 5 or less as a rebel player and likely 10 or less as an imperial. The Death Star attack had Gold Squadron and Red Squadron I believe. Scarif had Red, Blue, and Gold with the Ghost.

I bought in with the idea of flying ISDs against the rebels and really wish the game supported that play. I think I'd make a few tweaks like making all imp squads 3 hull roughly and cheap to allow huge swarms while beefing up the rebels and costing them to feel more outnumbered. My current list is squad support with 135 points of X-Wings and HWKs.

Yeah, I guess the reality is buyers remorse. Why buy 2 or more of anything outside flotillas?

We are obviously dealing with a Trump supporter

For serious, can we just...

Wow. Lot of people talking about data. Let me tell you, emmjay knows all about data. He has the best data. Nobody has better data than emmjay. When the circle comes back around, you're going to see just how good his data is.

Edit: China

Guys. Irrelevant politics.