If you hate it so much stop playing.

We are a better community than that

I know we are, but when someone refuses to listen to every argument you can throw at them (7 pages) there is nothing else you can do. It seems more like everyone is being trolled and this argument will run around in circles.

Like I said earlier, this same topic WILL pop up 2 weeks after wave 5+CC hits. And some people will listen to reason, others will not. If you refuse to accept the fact that squads are a part of the game and want to start the hate-train, you may as well leave the community.

I understand there is an overwhelming amount of squads. I may have been among the first to say FFG has to stop releasing so many. We have enough. There are so many aces and combinations, the lists will be endless. I like diversity, but I don't like this massive bolus of diverstiy we have to swallow right now. I hope wave 6,7,8 are only ships so we can break from the squadron based meta.

True story - you play games to have fun. If you don't like the game, then don't play it - life is too short to get worked up over plastic spaceships.

Have to agree that more squadrons != more powerful squadrons

Since at least some of those are antisquadron

And while the pelta seems to providr absolutely bonkers squadron support, the Arty is pure long range antiship thay gives the empire SOMETHING outside rhymer for long range firepower

Artys and jonus too should be hilarious. Make homeone akbar,real freaking mad

When an X-Wing can easily kill the backbone of the empire (TIE Fighters and Interceptors) and the reverse isn't true, well, no bueno. Even with the new squadrons coming in wave 5, the empire has no way to 1 shot the rebellions backbone of X-wings and Y-Wings. A-Wings, sure.

Is this part of the perceived issue - that Imperials are at a disadvantage? It seems a separate argument from the previous positions you've laid out.

Regardless, the Empire's strengths are in squadron synergy. Specifically, Howlrunner + TIE Interceptors will allow one-shotting X-wings. Add Flight controllers to get the 6 dice needed to take down a Y-wing. Plus, well-flown Imperial fighters will always get the first shot in on Rebel fighters, due to their high speed. Imperials hold all the cards when it comes to dominating the squadron game - there just haven't been enough bombers around up till now for that build to shine. Now's their moment.

I tried reading this thread and to put serious thought into the discussion but I can't. Squadrons are just as much of an importance as capital ships in Star Wars, if not more, in every single movie, show, comic or book. They are an absolute important feature to Star Wars and always will be.

An MC80 did not save the Galaxy from the dreaded Death Star I or II, it was the squadrons that defeated them and the Executor SSD because the Capital Ships couldn't do any real damage to any of them. That's just the reality and I'm sorry if the lore of Star Wars isn't your thing. Star Trek is of course totally about Capital Ships and their games don't include squadrons. Have you tried them?

If you hate it so much stop playing.

We are a better community than that

I know we are, but when someone refuses to listen to every argument you can throw at them (7 pages) there is nothing else you can do. It seems more like everyone is being trolled and this argument will run around in circles.

Like I said earlier, this same topic WILL pop up 2 weeks after wave 5+CC hits. And some people will listen to reason, others will not. If you refuse to accept the fact that squads are a part of the game and want to start the hate-train, you may as well leave the community.

I understand there is an overwhelming amount of squads. I may have been among the first to say FFG has to stop releasing so many. We have enough. There are so many aces and combinations, the lists will be endless. I like diversity, but I don't like this massive bolus of diverstiy we have to swallow right now. I hope wave 6,7,8 are only ships so we can break from the squadron based meta.

True story - you play games to have fun. If you don't like the game, then don't play it - life is too short to get worked up over plastic spaceships.

Exactly. I wouldn't just tell someone "GTFO or get good newb". I do think it is humorous, but it's not a way to keep someone playing the game or helping them understand the game any better.

But really, Armada is not for everyone. The game is long, involves complex strategy, difficult rules and a high buy in price. There is no net listing, no perfect fleet. Every person who plays has to come up with a list, and the only reason they lose is because of their own short comings. There is no element of surprise, no "slowly waiting to die" like MTG when you draw no land. You cannot control your pairings or your dice, to an extent. Other than that, if you lose, it is your own fault. Players have to come to terms with that and understand why their list did not work. And that brings me to my next point.

Tryign to win without squads right now is extremely unlikely. If you don't bring any squads and lose, you have only yourself to blame. If you can't handle it, you can lash out and rage like the OP is, or you can accept that this is not wave 1 and FFG has a gentle hand guiding us to play with squads. We have more anti-squad options now than we did before. Between E-Wings, Defenders, Decimators and all the crazy damage mitigation for Rebels, there is no excuse for a player not being able to spend 60sum points to win the squad game. And now we have Flechette Torps! Easily one of the biggest game changers for keeping a ball of squads flying around.

The meta is changing and the players need to adapt to it. Yes, the top 4 at Worlds had squad "heavy" lists. The lists winning now have squads in it. There are more squads than ships. In all the movies squads play a role. Squads blew up the Death Star. All of this anecdotal evidence is fine and dandy, but the fact of the matter is FFG has released more squads.

Get over it. Be happy and excited or hate it with a passion. I don't care. But if anyone makes the statement "I hate squads and they ruin the game" and the squads haven't even come out, then I'm going to politely show you the door. As a community, do we want negative people who refuse to change their mind on a matter? I'll be the first to admit I didn't like the Arq when it was spoiled. But I also asked the community why they thought it was good. And I came around to being excited for it when the titles were shown. Those titles sold it for me. I'm going to get 2 and play them all the freakin time.

And that is the difference here. Dislike something all you want, but keep an open mind. Be willing to change your opinion.

It would be really nice if someone could post or copy paste it. There seems to not be much in the way of helping people get better at the game. I'm definitely not going to go join the San Antonio Armada FB page...

Not sure what you're asking to have copy-pasted.

The standings I saw from Houston are just names, not lists, and the only ones anybody here will recognize are those top three. Like Vergilius said, I'm sure the results will get posted to Shmitty's data collection page by someone who was actually there and grabbed them.

If you're looking for the specific MC30 swarm I use, it's here: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/231399-moar-shrimps/?p=2466402 I didn't post it before because I'm not advocating people necessarily use the same build I do, just pointing out that there are all-ship options out there for those that want them. I don't pretend to know them all, but I do have definitive evidence that they work because I do it myself.

I will admit one thing about this forum, there seems to be too little actual "Game" topics and too much "I'm bored so let's just talk" threads. I use to come to the threads often hoping to read more tactics people have developed or thoughts on Fleet builds. Unfortunately the forum has been lacking talk on strategy and tactics for a long time, even though a gem shows up from time to time, most conversations tend to be like this thread, just an off topic thread that either nitpicks the game or a wish list for something we don't have yet.

I would hope we will get to a point where we're better than this but I don't know if that is just wishful thinking. Most likely is.

I guess some of us are salty because we bought into this game hoping the glory would be on Star Destroyers and capital ships fighting it out. With Squadrons being so much better of a mechanic for dealing damage against ships, it's kind of starting to look like a zoomed out version of X-Wing.

To me it feels like the pendulum just swung too hard in favor of squadrons. They were weak in wave one, now we're seeing overcompensation.

I guess some of us are salty because we bought into this game hoping the glory would be on Star Destroyers and capital ships fighting it out. With Squadrons being so much better of a mechanic for dealing damage against ships, it's kind of starting to look like a zoomed out version of X-Wing.

To me it feels like the pendulum just swung too hard in favor of squadrons. They were weak in wave one, now we're seeing overcompensation.

I agree with that. Bombers are very powerful, and Reb bombers got even better with the new Y-wing Ace. +1 damage on a crit to shields is crazy.

But I do think FFG realizes the players don't want to always run squads, and are adding new things to compensate like the Decimator and E-Wing. I think wave 5+CC will be the "anti-squad" meta where as wave 3+4 was the "bomber meta".

Hmm... lets do some math.

1 Squadron (according to most SW novels and sources) is 12 starfighters.

So 8x Y-wings is 96 starfighters.

Each Y-wing has (according to most SW novels and sources) 8x proton torpedoes.

That's 768x proton torpedoes in total.

And even if each starfighter only fired two proton torpedoes per attack run (per turn)

That is still 192x proton torpedoes potentially aimed at one target.

No wonder that Naval Imperial officers (according to the X-wing novels) felt uncomfordable at the prospect of being subjected to mass or determined attacks by starfighter-bombers, Such attacks was aptly nick-named Trench Run Diseace, as a reference to starfighters taking out large targets like the Death Star.

So it sounds like that some, feels uncomfordable at the prospect of Trench Run Diseace

I don't know for sure but I don't think those sources are canon

FYI: Once a product has been lincensed and sold as a Star Wars product, its Star Wars for me, for better or worse (Hey I'm looking at you Jar Jar)

So frankly I don't give a two penny's worth of a Jawa hide, if its canon or not.

It is still Star Wars and will always be, until our own sun burns out and humanity has ceased to exist.

I was a player who barely used squadrons early on in the game. I preferred playing around with activations and didn't want to spend the time to learn to play squadrons well. As the game progressed I adjusted my strategies since I wanted to try new things out as well. If you don't like squadrons on the table that is your prerogative, but please don't use that as an argument that they are bad for the game. Squadrons are Star Wars. I remember episodes of Clone Wars where uncontested Vuture droids (cheap fighters, not made to bomb) obliterated a Venator in moments due to the lack the failure of the Republic fighter screen.

For the arguments that ships don't do enough damage to squadrons, it seems like you expect your ships to defend themselves completely. Your own squadrons always have been and always will be your best defense.

While flotilla's have seen a strong buff to squadrons, the game will still continue to shift and evolve. If you don't like the current meta give it a little time, or better yet, try to change your local meta.

Speaking of flotillas and activations, I strongly disagree that the activation system needs "fixing" and especially not by allowing players to pass activation if they are behind on activations. That rule would remove a key component of the game, one that has been specifically mentioned by the Devs as a key mechanic, and it also happens to be one that many players enjoy.

If these items really are a strong issue to you, perhaps Armada isn't the game for you. By no means am I telling you to quit, but not all games are enjoyed equally by all (I for one only play X-wing casually, and that rarely in itself). Also feel free to try house rules if you aren't finding the game to your liking!

I guess some of us are salty because we bought into this game hoping the glory would be on Star Destroyers and capital ships fighting it out. With Squadrons being so much better of a mechanic for dealing damage against ships, it's kind of starting to look like a zoomed out version of X-Wing.

To me it feels like the pendulum just swung too hard in favor of squadrons. They were weak in wave one, now we're seeing overcompensation.

Fluff wise if a Commander doesn't scramble his Squadrons when the enemy assaults he will lose. It is a game about Capital Ships but people got use to running Squadron free before wave 4 and now that players have to adjust there is a big resistance because players want the days of Squadron-Free fleets again. That's like saying can I have ISD-Free games again?

I don't know how anyone could think squadrons are bad for the game. Have you SEEN Star Wars? The snubfighters are integral parts of every battle.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

How many ships did squadrons actually kill in 4-6?

1. Death Star 1

2. Death Star 2

3. Executor

4. Devastator

5. Harbringer

6. Vehement

Thats it.

IF squadrons were so vital, as you all put it, why didn't they, at the Battle of Hoth, use their weapons to destroy the AT-AT's, and then go into space to destroy, or at least cripple, the large bulk of the Imperial Fleet?

And, 2 of them wern't even ships, they were Death Stars.

Dude. I actually thought you were being sarcastic at first. That's a pretty great record for squadrons given how much fleet combat we actually have as a reference in canon these days.

Also can I state the very very obvious? Without Capital support the Squadrons are very very weak and a waste of points and you can only take so many Squadrons and if you lose your Capitals you lose the game no matter how many Squadrons are on the table.

So sorry, no matter how you twist the argument it is still about the Capitals!

I don't know how anyone could think squadrons are bad for the game. Have you SEEN Star Wars? The snubfighters are integral parts of every battle.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

How many ships did squadrons actually kill in 4-6?

1. Death Star 1

2. Death Star 2

3. Executor

4. Devastator

5. Harbringer

6. Vehement

Thats it.

IF squadrons were so vital, as you all put it, why didn't they, at the Battle of Hoth, use their weapons to destroy the AT-AT's, and then go into space to destroy, or at least cripple, the large bulk of the Imperial Fleet?

And, 2 of them wern't even ships, they were Death Stars.

Dude. I actually thought you were being sarcastic at first. That's a pretty great record for squadrons given how much fleet combat we actually have as a reference in canon these days.

As far as I can tell, other than the beginning of a New Hope, there is one scene in Jedi where a Nebulon trades a couple lasers with a star destroyer, and that's it for what we see a capital ship doing in the original trilogy.

Here's the shot:
https://youtu.be/xPZigWFyK2o?t=288

If anything, they've made their effectiveness more in this game than we've been shown.

I think the squadrons are fine. So far in all the movies and tv-series situated after the clone wars, starfighters were the deciding factor. Still, I would like to see some more dedicated anti-squadron capital ships with 3 or even 4 anti-squadron dice. Specifically the Lancer for the Empire and perhaps the DP20 Frigate for the Rebels.

As far as I can tell, other than the beginning of a New Hope, there is one scene in Jedi where a Nebulon trades a couple lasers with a star destroyer, and that's it for what we see a capital ship doing in the original trilogy.

Here's the shot:
https://youtu.be/xPZigWFyK2o?t=288

If anything, they've made their effectiveness more in this game than we've been shown.

Looking at that scene, I just noticed what looks like a mine being launched from (behind) the A-wing at 4:49 which then homes in on and impacts the Star Destroyer at 4:51. Never noticed that before.

I agree the meta has completely shifted since wave 1, where squadron-less fleets were dominant.

I attribute it to the following reasons :

1) Rogue - the only way a squadron-less fleet can get a match against 8 x YT-2400 is if it is very fast, otherwise it will just lose a couple ships against the rogues while the opponent fleet is evading. This is very bad for Victory destroyers, which were (and still are) the ships that can sustain the highest number of squadron damage relatively for their cost, and were quite a good option in a rogue-less environment.

2) Intel - There is almost no way you can prevent intel-covered bombers to reach your ships ... and that's by far the BIGGEST factor. There is almost no 'squadron screen' anymore. A "bomber-centric" list in wave 1 was almost suicidal, as it would lose to a list with a heavy "fighter" component. But Intel means that you don't really have to win the air-air combat to win the game, and we had multiple high profile games to prove that this year where bomber lists defeated well-flown fighter lists, which might not be the outcome we would wish in the overall scheme of things. I have hopes that 'snipe' might provide kind-of-an answer, but my expectation is that it won't be enough, although it might spice things up.

3) Flotillas (and activation advantage) - I'd say flotillas would be fine for their cost in a vacuum, but activation advantage is so big that if you had to pay separately for the '1 activation' and 'everything else about the ship', I'd really be surprised about the breakdown. At what cost would an upgrade reading 'exhaust this upgrade to skip one activation' be valuable ? Pre-flotillas, I was estimating the value of such an upgrade at '10 points'. We can argue about that, but I think 5 would definitely be too cheap. So, if '10' is the right price, that means that you're only paying a miserable 8 points for a transport if you don't consider its activation advantage.

So, I consider that the game is in a good shape right now, but I think there is room for improvement anyway. Among the issues that could be approached to address this :

- Work around the 'activation advantage' that is currently crippling big ship lists

- Work around the unstopability of intel-covered bombers.

- Work around offering more anti-air solutions to ships. Right now, there are just a few upgrades helping with that, but it's really barely explored. One solution for example could be to have an upgrade to 'cancel intel within medium range'

A good sign for me is that the game shifted almost to a 'no-squadron meta' to an 'all-bomber' meta, meaning that squadrons are probably priced relatively well in comparison to ships. The thing that the current meta trashed is the 'factor screen'. That's what I'd try to help now.

As a TIE Bomber enthusiast from the start of Wave I, I remember that meta quite fondly.

People didn't bring squadrons, and so my bombers had a great time. I racked up a ton of tournament medals, and won two Sullust events.

The no-squadron meta was not in the cards and minis. It was between the collective ears. I agree that Rogue and Intel have swing the pendulum, but I think that the perception of the meta is an exaggeration of what the meta actually is. Look at the data.

Obviously squadrons are important, but they're not all-important. If the actual level of importance is still too much for you; that it's not your Star Wars, then perhaps you (and others) have a different Star Wars. That's perfectly fine, but well, that's just like, your opinion, man.

And while FFG will probably do things to swing the pendulum back, they're not going to make squadrons go away, or diminished to almost nothing.

I don't know how anyone could think squadrons are bad for the game. Have you SEEN Star Wars? The snubfighters are integral parts of every battle.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

How many ships did squadrons actually kill in 4-6?

1. Death Star 1

2. Death Star 2

3. Executor

4. Devastator

5. Harbringer

6. Vehement

Thats it.

IF squadrons were so vital, as you all put it, why didn't they, at the Battle of Hoth, use their weapons to destroy the AT-AT's, and then go into space to destroy, or at least cripple, the large bulk of the Imperial Fleet?

And, 2 of them wern't even ships, they were Death Stars.

Or conversely, lets look at how many space battles were fought with zero fighters present:

None.

Now lets look at Rogue 1 where a squadron of Y Wings disable an ISD.

Squadrons are totally cool. They're an integral part of Star Wars, they've been in every movie, everyone loves them, why on earth would anyone not want them in Armada?

Also can I state the very very obvious? Without Capital support the Squadrons are very very weak and a waste of points and you can only take so many Squadrons and if you lose your Capitals you lose the game no matter how many Squadrons are on the table.

So sorry, no matter how you twist the argument it is still about the Capitals!

I for one, am really looking forward to wave 5 and the new pilots from corellian conflict. Biggs, Ten Numb and E wings in particular for the Rebels, Phantoms, Defenders and Jonus for the Imperials. Bring it on.

300 Points probably had more to do with the ability to play a Fleet with no Squadrons than anything else.

Just wanted to chime in really quick on this topic, since I can kinda see where he's coming from.

I don't really like the squadron heavy gameplay as well, but I'm still playing the game when I can and enjoy because of all the diversity. However, I think we should give it time. Right now squadron-play is really heavy in the meta, but we might see the return of more capital ships soon in the future. The new fleet command stuff for example, we're given a little piece of the pie, but I bet there's more stuff coming the pipe.

I'm not gonna lie, I haven't seen a huge need to go pick up all the new wave ships and/or squadrons. I might do it because I enjoy the models, but nothing has really screamed "buy me!" in terms of my playstyle or play preference. The squadron-lovers are having their time right now, and that's a good thing. I would have have this pendulum swing than to stay still and stagnant. It helps bring in newer players (who likes zoomed out X-Wing), but it also allows for greater design space and flexibility so they don't run out of ideas too quickly.

With that said, I think next wave will see more capital ship stuff for sure. Just hang in there

I agree the meta has completely shifted since wave 1, where squadron-less fleets were dominant.

I attribute it to the following reasons :

2) Intel - There is almost no way you can prevent intel-covered bombers to reach your ships ... and that's by far the BIGGEST factor. There is almost no 'squadron screen' anymore. A "bomber-centric" list in wave 1 was almost suicidal, as it would lose to a list with a heavy "fighter" component. But Intel means that you don't really have to win the air-air combat to win the game, and we had multiple high profile games to prove that this year where bomber lists defeated well-flown fighter lists, which might not be the outcome we would wish in the overall scheme of things. I have hopes that 'snipe' might provide kind-of-an answer, but my expectation is that it won't be enough, although it might spice things up.

I think this more than anything sinks big ships. Accepting the fact that no list should be without some fighter cover, Intel greatly increases the need for a focused fighter squadron to start killing enemy fighters instead of just deterring them.

And? It helps nothing that the Rebellion has the better escort-holding squadron with X-Wings. The only reason Xwings aren't better is because they don't have a means to get counter. But 5 hull and four blue dice could do a lot better to win the squad game than TIEs.

Now that Defenders, Phantoms, and VTs are entering the game at least it can step up the fewer-ship escort game for the Empire. And as I think about it I also like having Lambdas at Relay 2... it means with two Lambdas you can funnel the entire activation of one ship into a ball, taking off the demand for boosted comms.

I think the idea of squadrons being effective is totally Star Wars. I mean, just look at Rogue One and that space battle at Scarif. It is Armada personified.

I, like many others, do feel that flotillas might need to be adjusted or are a more immediate concern for the game.