My opinion is that people should be able to play as many squadron as they want and stay competitive. The problem right now is that you can't be competitive without playing a good amount of squadrons and some flotilla.

I totally agree that the core problem is that ship don't deal enough damage to squadrons !

I think this feature was justified in wave 1 when squadrons were pretty inefficient , but with all the supports squadrons got with wave 2 and 3 the balance need to be restored. Even a specialized raider cannot destroy squadrons efficiently, This feature is the cause of the fundamental imbalance between squadrons and ship but is also totally unrealistic, ships have a lot anti squadrons armament and should be a threat to them. I remember when i was playing X-wing alliance , approaching a star destroyer was always a scary experience because those big capital ship had a lot of fire power.

My proposal to fix the issue:

-Allow capital ship to fire squadrons from every arc in addition to their regular 2 arcs (which can only be used against ship)

I played this way for a very long time since I miss read the rules , and interestingly enough the rules works much better that way , capital ships can actually destroy squadrons, playing a ship with 2 anti squadron die is actually worth it. Realistically it makes much more sense, a ship should not sacrifice its fire power to attack squadrons , since the anti squadrons batteries are totally different weapon from the anti ship canons.

-Make good anti squadrons upgrade cards.

The current anti squadrons cards ships we have access now are utter crap ( point defense reroute ,cluster bombs, quad turbo laser...).

question:

why do all-ship builds need to be viable?

answer: because thats "ideal", people should play what they want, supporters of this theory say.

...so, seriously. if i want to make a fleet with Tarkin commanding rebels, should i be able to do so? they said "i should play what i want".

answer: no, cause tarkin leading rebel forces is not star wars. its just lame. same with rieekan commanding ISDs. it ruins it for everyone else.

conclusion: so, i should be able to play what i want as long as it feels star wars-y.

... does fleet combat without squadron presence feel star wars-y?

honest answers please.

EDIT:

star wars is star destroyers escorted by endless swarms of TIE fighters.

star wars is small rebel ships coordinating brave pilots to land an excellent strike.

star wars is not huge mighty "rebel" ships trading blows with star destroyers. that doesnt feel like a rebellion force

star wars is not star destroyers going in without air support and feeling all surrounded and outnumbered, trying to beat the odds. that doesnt feel like a "superior ship-to-ship" imperial force

i started this game with full intention of using my ship batteries AND STILL using some squadrons because thats what happens in star wars and thats what makes sense.lets be real, if we wanna keep true to the theme, a minimal (say, 50 points) force of squadrons should be mandatory! the fact that no rule enforces that is a sign to the game's freedom of restrictions. the core set has 3 ships and 10 squadrons! if zero-squadron fleets are a thing, then the thematic tie swarm escort/ x-wing fighter screen becomes useless ! dont people understand that?

Hmm... lets do some math.

1 Squadron (according to most SW novels and sources) is 12 starfighters.

So 8x Y-wings is 96 starfighters.

Each Y-wing has (according to most SW novels and sources) 8x proton torpedoes.

That's 768x proton torpedoes in total.

And even if each starfighter only fired two proton torpedoes per attack run (per turn)

That is still 192x proton torpedoes potentially aimed at one target.

No wonder that Naval Imperial officers (according to the X-wing novels) felt uncomfordable at the prospect of being subjected to mass or determined attacks by starfighter-bombers, Such attacks was aptly nick-named Trench Run Diseace, as a reference to starfighters taking out large targets like the Death Star.

So it sounds like that some, feels uncomfordable at the prospect of Trench Run Diseace

Wow this troll thread really took off. 6 pages in less than 24 hours?

Let's see how many we can get next month when this topic comes back.

In my few games so far, I have seen that the best defence for ships against squadrons is neither a fighter screen, or AA, but both.

It's not fair to expect ships to simply be able to slaughter enemy squadrons out of hand just for approaching them, because then bombers are pointless in this game, where they are central to Star Wars space combat because the whole point of fighters in Star Wars is they can fight above their weight class.

You need a one-two punch to eliminate those defense tokens, especially. Once those are gone, especially scatter, those aces are as easy to kill as regulars. It just might take till the second turn of firing to start killing them.

I disagree with the idea that squadrons are a bad thing in Armada. I was pushing max squadrons when it wasn't a thing and successful with it. (Heck I was pushing the VSD and loving it)

For Regionals I wanted to push myself and counter the squadron lists and I did. I ran 1 squadron in 8 Regionals games and came in second both. I ran a MM swarm with just Tycho and a Glad2 swarm with zero squads. It was really fun. Yes it is anecdotal but I did it and so can you.

This game is setup so that you can play what you want. Don't like squadrons? Take a Raider swarm with Flechettes. Yeah you'll get crushed by a lot of fleets, but you will bring pain to squadrons.

Don't like squadrons? Take a Raider swarm with Flechettes. Yeah you'll get crushed by a lot of fleets, but you will bring pain to squadrons.

Raider I with Flechettes, OEs, and the Instigator title is going to be really really painful. I also don't think it will be dead weight in any scenario. The Flechettes and Instigator title are cheap enough to not be dead weight against squadron-light or squadronless builds. That would be like saying "Don't take damage control officers. They're dead weight if your opponent doesn't bring ordnance upgrades." It's true, but I'd rather spend the points and be ready. Of course, I actually like the Raider for its own merits, unlike most people. It packs a good punch for being such a cheap ship.

"I don't like star fighters so they are bad."

Star fighters are an important accept of fleet combat. They're supposed to be a problem.

Me thinks someone just built a fotm GenCon fleet and is now mad they can't win with it.

I love squadrons.... Get good...

People are not complaining about losing to squadrons, they're complaining about the omnipresence of squadrons. Plz don't be a troll in these threads.

With all due respect, the title of this thread is "squadrons why they are bad thing in armada"

That fits the very definition of a complaint.... OP leads off with the premise that we were all duped into buying the game and then had squads forced onto us... It's just not the case...

Lastly, from what I gather from the forums and from other players is that the game feels incredibly balanced and fun to play... Therefore I submit if you have the viewpoint that squads or flotilla need adjustment, that PERHAPS you need to go back and evaluate your own play...

I apologize if my post came off trolly, but at the time I felt that one troll post deserved another....

Yes, I titled the thread the way I did, and did a reasonable argument showing reasons supporting my argument, and possible fixes. Because, right now, I really do believe that without some changes, squadrons are ruining the spirit, if not the essence, of the game.

Also, quit with the straw man arguments..... there are just as many people who think as I do that squadrons..... and people have responded (and liked) arguments going both ways, in their current format are ruining what the game started out as.

I've been playing with and against max squads for over a year now and feel I have a good evaluation on their effectiveness and impact on the game (sans Wave 5 of course). Some comments on previous claims:

• Squadrons dominate:

Not true. They are balanced VERY well. Fleets without squads can do well when built and flown skillfully. I'm even going to say a squadronless fleet does best vs fleets with max squads. As others stated, the MC30 build is brutal when played properly against a carrier fleet. Lastly, a token squad force, of ~4-6 squads, works just fine at countering a large squadron fleet, again, when played properly. You can't just toss them into an enemy squad ball and expect them to hold up the entire game. One of our locals is a master with a token squad force and he regularly defeats my full squad builds. Token squad forces are best used when you need them to hold up the fighters just long enough for your ships to engage and destroy carriers. It's 100% dependent on timing. Plan on 2-3 turns of fighting and don't sacrifice your token squad force until your ships are ready to engage. Tie up the enemy squads, attack carriers, fly away with speedy ships, and enemy squads shouldn't be a problem.

• Ships do not have enough AA:

Not true. Most people use ships without the variant with good AA dice, and this is often the problem, such as GSD1s, AF-MkBs, Interdictor Suppressors. A fleet with good AA ships will tear through squadrons like butter, but it does require similar skills and preparations to execute, such as high activation, position, and going first all help. I've been using GSD2s and AF-MkB's for a year and they get the job done vs squadrons, HUGE!

My biggest beef with squadrons, and it's something I've been barking about for almost a year (and it has almost made me quit the game several times), is that lots of squadrons make the game extremely fiddly to play, to the point where I often do not enjoy games with 20+ squadrons on the map. These games take more than double the amount of time to play, make every ship and squadron activation an exercise in frustration due to having to extract, set aside, measure, replace, and knock over multiple pieces every time a piece is activated.This REALLY kills the gameflow for me and recently I started playing with little to no squadrons and my enjoyment of Armada has gone up significantly. I have no love for games with 15+ squads.

Wave 5 squads may address my above concern a little, with Snipe, Relay, Cloak, Fighter Ambush all enabling more spaced-out play. I'm still in favor of lowering the squad max to 1/5 (80 points) instead of 1/3 (134 points), or something close to that.

Guys you are way underestimating double aa dice

Agreed. Try a fleet with lots of AA dice and have activation advantage and be player 1. Good bye enemy squads.

Oh look

It's this thread again

Re: this thread in general

When it comes to the more measured "I have some concerns about the current meta and the prevalence of squadrons" posters, I feel we can have a discussion. I would like to counsel that we need to see how wave 5 plays out before jumping to conclusions, as right now it seems some people are just thinking "right now but more crazy squadrons," without considering those squadrons cost points and change the squadron build dynamics. Anyways, I do feel like a few of the complaints come down to "I'm used to running squadron-light fleets that focus on attacking large ships by using upgrades like XI7s and this wave 4 meta is crushing me and I don't want to adapt," but there are some valid concerns. I for one would like to see some more cost-effective anti-flotilla platforms (particularly for the Imperials) but it looks like wave 5 might help a bit there through some new upgrades (and Jerrjerrod indirectly) as well as some new anti-blob tech (Ten Numb for Rebels), Snipe squadrons to pick at Intel lynchpins, and stronger anti-squadron squadrons for Imperials (with some neat tech). This does require one to use squadrons in the first place, though, which brings me to...

I have absolutely no sympathy for the people who think Armada is supposed to be a game where fleets with no squadrons whatsoever are highly competitive despite the overwhelming and ever-growing evidence that both FFG and the actual series do not agree with them. The only space combat in a Star Wars movie with no squadrons is the opening scene of a New Hope and that's stretching the definition of "space combat" given it's an extremely outmatched corvette running like hell away from an Imperial Star Destroyer.

Re: possible "solutions"

If FFG was ever going to issue any kind of fix to a game problem it would need to be something that kept its cards and points values intact. Anything that changes points costs or adds extra rules to flotillas can create a substantial amount of confusion and the ideal way to fix that is to print all-new cards detailing the new costs and rules to replace the old cards. That is a big logistical headache for FFG that generates zero dollars of profit and so is just plain not going to happen. I think your best bet is for something that's easy to put into an errata or FAQ that slightly changes the basic game rules and is a more general "fix." I'm personally a fan of the "you may pass instead of activating a ship if your opponent has more unactivated ships than you do" solution, and it's been shown that FFG is amenable to that exact kind of fix with Imperial Assault.

I never said no squadrons. actually look and READ my original post. Armada was billed, and demo'd as a ship heavy, squadron light game. "More of a "side action" to the main business of large ships shooting at each other again and again. If a squadron or few did happed to attack and deal damage to a ship, great, if not, no big deal. "

Now, its all in on squadrons, and you large ships are dedicated to supporting those squadrons. When an X-Wing can easily kill the backbone of the empire (TIE Fighters and Interceptors) and the reverse isn't true, well, no bueno. Even with the new squadrons coming in wave 5, the empire has no way to 1 shot the rebellions backbone of X-wings and Y-Wings. A-Wings, sure.

I don't know how anyone could think squadrons are bad for the game. Have you SEEN Star Wars? The snubfighters are integral parts of every battle.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

How many ships did squadrons actually kill in 4-6?

1. Death Star 1

2. Death Star 2

3. Executor

4. Devastator

5. Harbringer

6. Vehement

Thats it.

IF squadrons were so vital, as you all put it, why didn't they, at the Battle of Hoth, use their weapons to destroy the AT-AT's, and then go into space to destroy, or at least cripple, the large bulk of the Imperial Fleet?

And, 2 of them wern't even ships, they were Death Stars.

Guys you are way underestimating double aa dice

Agreed. Try a fleet with lots of AA dice and have activation advantage and be player 1. Good bye enemy squads.

toyrn farr on AA dice is sexy

Plus, with wave 5 releasing defenders and Es, you can probably mitigate squadrons very well with a low model count while not being worthless v enemy ships. Just add a flotilla or two like you were going to anyway

I don't know how anyone could think squadrons are bad for the game. Have you SEEN Star Wars? The snubfighters are integral parts of every battle.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

How many ships did squadrons actually kill in 4-6?

1. Death Star 1

2. Death Star 2

3. Executor

4. Devastator

5. Harbringer

6. Vehement

Thats it.

IF squadrons were so vital, as you all put it, why didn't they, at the Battle of Hoth, use their weapons to destroy the AT-AT's, and then go into space to destroy, or at least cripple, the large bulk of the Imperial Fleet?

And, 2 of them wern't even ships, they were Death Stars.

Does splash damage count? When the DS II was destroyed, it took out about 1/3 of the Imp fleet there. Look at what all the squads did.

And if you don't like em, don't play em.

Also, I heard some talk between players and FFG at Worlds, and FFG confirmed wave 3+5 were squad based. It was intentional. Now with wave 5, we actually have good options to kill squads by bringing stronger squads.

Don't judge wave 5 until it has dropped. No one has had time to play any of the new stuff, so there is little evidence to support your claim that squads are ruining the game.

I don't know how anyone could think squadrons are bad for the game. Have you SEEN Star Wars? The snubfighters are integral parts of every battle.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

How many ships did squadrons actually kill in 4-6?

1. Death Star 1

2. Death Star 2

3. Executor

4. Devastator

5. Harbringer

6. Vehement

Thats it.

IF squadrons were so vital, as you all put it, why didn't they, at the Battle of Hoth, use their weapons to destroy the AT-AT's, and then go into space to destroy, or at least cripple, the large bulk of the Imperial Fleet?

And, 2 of them wern't even ships, they were Death Stars.

Does splash damage count? When the DS II was destroyed, it took out about 1/3 of the Imp fleet there. Look at what all the squads did.

And if you don't like em, don't play em.

Also, I heard some talk between players and FFG at Worlds, and FFG confirmed wave 3+5 were squad based. It was intentional. Now with wave 5, we actually have good options to kill squads by bringing stronger squads.

Don't judge wave 5 until it has dropped. No one has had time to play any of the new stuff, so there is little evidence to support your claim that squads are ruining the game.

Please, quit with the "Don't judge until wave 5 is out"..... Just stop. You would have said the same thing 2 days before the wave 5 announcement, and not even have a CLUE what wave 5 would be. Oh, look, 8 more squadrons..... Now you have egg on your face.

Guys you are way underestimating double aa dice

Agreed. Try a fleet with lots of AA dice and have activation advantage and be player 1. Good bye enemy squads.

So, I have to have a fleet that is dedicated to taking out their squadrons, have more ships, AND be player 1. Thats a tall order just to be able to take out 1 list type.

I never said no squadrons. actually look and READ my original post. Armada was billed, and demo'd as a ship heavy, squadron light game. "More of a "side action" to the main business of large ships shooting at each other again and again. If a squadron or few did happed to attack and deal damage to a ship, great, if not, no big deal. "

Now, its all in on squadrons, and you large ships are dedicated to supporting those squadrons. When an X-Wing can easily kill the backbone of the empire (TIE Fighters and Interceptors) and the reverse isn't true, well, no bueno. Even with the new squadrons coming in wave 5, the empire has no way to 1 shot the rebellions backbone of X-wings and Y-Wings. A-Wings, sure.

I did read your post. I've read all your responses. Your arguments aren't very convincing. A lot of it earlier on devolved into a willful misinterpretation of what a "fleet" is, and when your argument is based around splitting hairs with a dictionary, it's a bad argument. YOU haven't said "no squadrons" but we get plenty of folks here who want to play no squadrons, they've already chimed in on this thread, and they write posts much like yours on about a once a month basis. They don't win any converts.

Re: TIE Fighters/Interceptors

If you don't know how to use TIEs well, it's likely part of why you perceive bomber squadrons to be too good. TIEs when used well, especially in conjunction with flak, are quite capable of mopping up generic Rebel squadrons. They're 8 points each so expecting exact parity with 13-point X-Wings is not reasonable. I often see Imperial players flying them straight at enemy squadrons, not giving them squadron commands/extending them outside of squadron command range, and putting them in range of enemy flak for no reason and those are all big mistakes.

If you want X-Wing equivalent Imperial squadrons with higher durability that are more multi-role, TIE Defenders will fill that niche very soon.

Re: Don't judge until wave 5 is out

What others are recommending is to wait until we see how the meta settles out with the new inclusions from wave 5. Knee-jerk reactions are often incorrect and even more experienced people can't correctly predict how new releases will all interact and what kind of meta it will create. It's very easy for people to only see what they want to see (and you want to see SQUADRONS ARE RUINING THE GAME ERMAGERD) but the reality is much messier and borne out of the reactions of numerous smaller choices and the reactions to those, continued until it reaches some kind of rough equilibrium.

I don't know how anyone could think squadrons are bad for the game. Have you SEEN Star Wars? The snubfighters are integral parts of every battle.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

How many ships did squadrons actually kill in 4-6?

1. Death Star 1

2. Death Star 2

3. Executor

4. Devastator

5. Harbringer

6. Vehement

Thats it.

IF squadrons were so vital, as you all put it, why didn't they, at the Battle of Hoth, use their weapons to destroy the AT-AT's, and then go into space to destroy, or at least cripple, the large bulk of the Imperial Fleet?

And, 2 of them wern't even ships, they were Death Stars.

How many ships did ISDs destroy in the OT? Not a lot...

As many, many others have pointed out, squadrons are a key part of Star Wars fleets. As a primarily rebel player, who refuses to take any non-canon ships, MC80s are my only real gunships, as I don't take MC30s or AFMk2s. That means my squadrons are one of my main killing components of my fleet. If I am flying against an opponent who has brought a sensible token deterrent, then it can be game over for me early on as I need to get the bombers on target. Holding up a bomber wing for 1-2 turns is usually sufficient if you don't just drive into the middle of it.

The game would be substantially poorer without squadrons, and definitely not Star Wars.

Maybe it's not the game for you. I am more than happy to take your plastic spaceships (and squadrons!) off your hands...

I don't know how anyone could think squadrons are bad for the game. Have you SEEN Star Wars? The snubfighters are integral parts of every battle.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

How many ships did squadrons actually kill in 4-6?

1. Death Star 1

2. Death Star 2

3. Executor

4. Devastator

5. Harbringer

6. Vehement

Thats it.

IF squadrons were so vital, as you all put it, why didn't they, at the Battle of Hoth, use their weapons to destroy the AT-AT's, and then go into space to destroy, or at least cripple, the large bulk of the Imperial Fleet?

And, 2 of them wern't even ships, they were Death Stars.

Does splash damage count? When the DS II was destroyed, it took out about 1/3 of the Imp fleet there. Look at what all the squads did.

And if you don't like em, don't play em.

Also, I heard some talk between players and FFG at Worlds, and FFG confirmed wave 3+5 were squad based. It was intentional. Now with wave 5, we actually have good options to kill squads by bringing stronger squads.

Don't judge wave 5 until it has dropped. No one has had time to play any of the new stuff, so there is little evidence to support your claim that squads are ruining the game.

Please, quit with the "Don't judge until wave 5 is out"..... Just stop. You would have said the same thing 2 days before the wave 5 announcement, and not even have a CLUE what wave 5 would be. Oh, look, 8 more squadrons..... Now you have egg on your face.

If you hate it so much stop playing.

IF squadrons were so vital, as you all put it, why didn't they, at the Battle of Hoth, use their weapons to destroy the AT-AT's, and then go into space to destroy, or at least cripple, the large bulk of the Imperial Fleet?

So you want us to justify the stale meta of George Lucas? Both Rebels and Imperials brought a large quantity of fighters throughout all the movies which somewhat negated each other. Throughout the movies both sides were too scared of turning up without squads that they always brought a fleets worth.

Please, quit with the "Don't judge until wave 5 is out"..... Just stop. You would have said the same thing 2 days before the wave 5 announcement, and not even have a CLUE what wave 5 would be. Oh, look, 8 more squadrons..... Now you have egg on your face.

What? 8 squadrons equals more power to squadrons? How? It sounds strongly like you dont understand the nuance of squads, and judging by your posts, you dont want to make an effort to either.

Look life is tough, you need to get used to that and make an effort. Nobody is gonna hold your hand. ok.

Tie Defenders are overpriced for their anti bomber dice alone.

Lambda's and Tie Phantoms are nearly useless against ships.

Z95's and VCX are also weak against ships.

Lancers are also **** expensive for a single bomber dice.

But yeah, lets not mention:

Snipe: Anti intel.

I never said no squadrons. actually look and READ my original post. Armada was billed, and demo'd as a ship heavy, squadron light game. "More of a "side action" to the main business of large ships shooting at each other again and again. If a squadron or few did happed to attack and deal damage to a ship, great, if not, no big deal. "

Now, its all in on squadrons, and you large ships are dedicated to supporting those squadrons. When an X-Wing can easily kill the backbone of the empire (TIE Fighters and Interceptors) and the reverse isn't true, well, no bueno. Even with the new squadrons coming in wave 5, the empire has no way to 1 shot the rebellions backbone of X-wings and Y-Wings. A-Wings, sure.

This is where things get really interesting.

Have you looked up Captain Jonus? I would say he gives a whole lot of support to ships. He looks set to supports ships so well that people are contemplating taking him in a rhymer less list...

Have you looked up Strategic? Now that is a glorious keyword, designed entirely to help your ships stay on course and not get distracted by silly objective shenanighans.

Have you looked up Relay? Well now your ships dont need to babysit anymore. Good, this game is about ships, so the squadrons can look after themselves for once.

Hmm... lets do some math.

1 Squadron (according to most SW novels and sources) is 12 starfighters.

So 8x Y-wings is 96 starfighters.

Each Y-wing has (according to most SW novels and sources) 8x proton torpedoes.

That's 768x proton torpedoes in total.

And even if each starfighter only fired two proton torpedoes per attack run (per turn)

That is still 192x proton torpedoes potentially aimed at one target.

No wonder that Naval Imperial officers (according to the X-wing novels) felt uncomfordable at the prospect of being subjected to mass or determined attacks by starfighter-bombers, Such attacks was aptly nick-named Trench Run Diseace, as a reference to starfighters taking out large targets like the Death Star.

So it sounds like that some, feels uncomfordable at the prospect of Trench Run Diseace

I don't know for sure but I don't think those sources are canon

If you hate it so much stop playing.

We are a better community than that

As an empirical matter, I'd like to call the premise into question.

The average number of squadrons lists have brought to Regionals is 6. That means that - by and large - much less than 134 points was spent on squadrons.* Yes, the winners brought more (8), on average, but that doesn't mean that they maxed out on points.

I know I brought 10, but still only spent around 100 points on them. And, yes, Tirion annihilated them with a lot of AA fire. Also, I did not bring a single TIE fighter, so he chewed through my bombers' hulls.

*Disregarding points spent on ships to help squadrons, but that is not part of the 134-point allotment.

If you hate it so much stop playing.

We are a better community than that

I know we are, but when someone refuses to listen to every argument you can throw at them (7 pages) there is nothing else you can do. It seems more like everyone is being trolled and this argument will run around in circles.

Like I said earlier, this same topic WILL pop up 2 weeks after wave 5+CC hits. And some people will listen to reason, others will not. If you refuse to accept the fact that squads are a part of the game and want to start the hate-train, you may as well leave the community.

I understand there is an overwhelming amount of squads. I may have been among the first to say FFG has to stop releasing so many. We have enough. There are so many aces and combinations, the lists will be endless. I like diversity, but I don't like this massive bolus of diverstiy we have to swallow right now. I hope wave 6,7,8 are only ships so we can break from the squadron based meta.