I say it every time this same thread pops up:

Guys. I'm seriously, you guys.

Try Mothma MC30's.

Mon Mothma's Admonition can.

I can personally attest to this. I've played several games using slight variations of this guy's Mothma list. All of those games have been against the Rebel heavy squadron focused lists and let me tell you it works like a charm. Zero squadrons needed. I personally run a few MC30s, couple flotillas, and a Jaina's Light TRC CR90 with Mothma and it absolutely wrecks these squadron focused lists with a couple flotillas and couple real ships. It's hard to fly but once you learn how to navigate those MC30s you'll feel unstoppable.

Edit: and you know what? I bet this list will still work well in wave 5 and CC.

Guys you are way underestimating double aa dice

Scatter tokens

Your opponents must be a lot worse at attacking scatter aces than mine. With a bunch of 4blue squads hooning around not to mention Toryn sodding Farr, I think my scatter aces get maybe one scatter in game these days!

I meant when attacking squadrons with ships. If you have a single blue or black die, you're ******. If you have a blue and a black, then you need to stars to align and a sacrifice to our lord and savior Cthulhu to get a damage in.

Multiple individual attacks work just fine on them, though. You just have to concentrate your fire (the tactic, not the command) to force them to eat the damage or burn the token. Not complicated; you just have to commit to getting the kill.

Also, there are no bombers with scatter; the only squadrons with scatter that even have a black anti-ship are the two A-wing aces, IG-88, and Dengar. Scatter itself isn't going to kill your ships. I'm sure it's frustrating shooting at scatter aces, but what are you scared of, Howlrunner's 50/50 chance per turn to deal a single damage? If the other guy spent 16 points for .5 average damage per turn, you're coming out WAY ahead on that math...

I'm calling BS on the "oh noes bombers are going to wreck my world" sentiment.

Afraid of bombers? Bring some fighters. Wave 5 is giving you lots of options.

And dedicated fighters will consistently take down a greater relative poInt value of bombers. That's the point of having them.

And if you fear wasting points on fighters because they won't be good against an all ship list? Then clearly you don't actually have a pervasive bomber problem.

Now, I think wave 5 is actually going to see a reduction in squadron influence - because it offers so many Antisquadron tools that heavily bomber-centric lists will face much more of an uphill battle. Which should have the effect of eventually making squadron-light lists much more present in the top tiers as more people bring them.

And if you fear wasting points on fighters because they won't be good against an all ship list? Then clearly you don't actually have a pervasive bomber problem.

This is the crux of this whole discussion. Hate squadrons? Take 134 points of X-wings, A-wings, or TIE Interceptors with Flight Controllers. That'll clean up your local meta quick-fast.

I say it every time this same thread pops up:

Guys. I'm seriously, you guys.Try Mothma MC30's.

Mon Mothma's Admonition can.

I can personally attest to this. I've played several games using slight variations of this guy's Mothma list. All of those games have been against the Rebel heavy squadron focused lists and let me tell you it works like a charm. Zero squadrons needed. I personally run a few MC30s, couple flotillas, and a Jaina's Light TRC CR90 with Mothma and it absolutely wrecks these squadron focused lists with a couple flotillas and couple real ships. It's hard to fly but once you learn how to navigate those MC30s you'll feel unstoppable.

Edit: and you know what? I bet this list will still work well in wave 5 and CC.

Interesting thread. I go play in a regional and this thread not only gets posted, but also grows to four pages before I can get home.

I think there's quite a bit of quibbling over the definitions of what counts as fleets and how the game was marketed. People are going to take the terms mentioned in the posts in different ways. I've seen that in person and I've seen it here. For some people, the fact that they feel compelled to take any squadrons is enough to cause them angst about the game. For me, the game has always been about the interaction between ships and squadrons.

Yes, squadrons are a big pole in the meta right now, and the heavy squadron lists are performing well. I've also seen no-squadron lists do well, largely because zooming away at speed 4 is definitely still a thing and never went away. There's also the fact that if you can find a way to reliably kill flotillas, removing those activations hurts squadron lists as sharply as losing their main heavy squadron carrier did in the days pre-flotillas. Sometimes it can even be worse if the opponent's non-flotilla ships are either designed to do something other than push squadrons or need to do something other than push squadrons.

Wave 5 is going to open up the game considerably. I think one has to engage in the squadron game, at least a little, but there's certainly room for good lists that run only a handful of squadrons.

I go play in a regional

Congrats on third!

I go play in a regional

Congrats on third!

Thanks! It was fun.

I accomplished two goals: 1. I cracked the top 4 and got that nice new orange ruler. 2. I put Madine on the top 4 on Schmitty's regional data page. Speaking of which, the second place finisher was an Imperial Konstantine list, so we can add that to the list of admirals to finally crack a top 4. We also had a pretty good Imperial/Rebel split in terms of both players and results. More on that another time.

Armada was designed, and sold to the public, as a game about large ships fighting each other.

Was it?

Seconded.

Argument built on False Premise to draw Pre-assigned Conclusion.

Yes, and the proof is simple.

1. On the link below, Armada is listed as "A game of tactical fleet combat in the Star Wars universe." Fleet, as in ships, not squadrons.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/#/universe/star-wars

2.

Rebel and Imperial fleets fight for the fate of the galaxy in Star Wars™: Armada, the two-player miniatures game of epic Star Wars space battles!

Massive Star Destroyers fly to battle against Rebel corvettes and frigates. Banks of turbolasers unleash torrential volleys of fire against squadrons of X-wings and TIEs. Engineering teams race to route additional power to failing shields. Laser blasts and explosions flare across the battlefield. Even a single ship can change the tide of battle.

In Star Wars: Armada, you assume the role of fleet admiral, serving with either the Imperial Navy or Rebel Alliance. It’s your job to issue the tactical commands that will decide the course of battle and, perhaps, the fate of the galaxy.

However, battles between capital ships are fought on a massive scale all their own; the more powerful your ships, the harder it is to adjust their actions on the fly. Capital ships can’t easily vary their speeds or execute hairpin turns like the starfighters that buzz around them, so successful admirals must learn to master every aspect of the ships in their fleet and learn how best to implement their strategies well in advance of the initial engagement.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-armada/

That's the current information... Going back into the archives, well, we find this.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2014/8/8/star-wars-tm-armada/

Although Star Wars : Armada is built around the galaxy’s many capital ships, you’ll almost certainly want to fly one or more squadrons of starfighters in your fleet, both to threaten enemy ships and to defend your ships from enemy squadrons.

So, yes, to answer your question, it was sold as a primarily Ship combat game.

Straight from Merriam-Webster.

fleet

noun

Definition of fleet

1

: a number of warships under a single command; specifically : an organization of ships and aircraft under the command of a flag officer

2

: group 2a, b; especially : a group (as of ships, planes, or trucks) operated under unified control

Tell me again how that's not what we got?

What you mean to say is that you were sold on big ships and the idea of fleets being big ships.

Some of the rest of us weren't, for our own reasons, part of which possibly being the definitions of words.

The quoted article explicitly states, in the last paragraph, that the game was built around representing the capital ships in Star Wars.

This is not to state that squadrons don't have a place in the game. They certainly do. From that same sentence, " to threaten enemy ships and to defend your ships from enemy squadrons."

The current meta is a game built around large clouds of fighter squadrons, and that is because the game currently does not provide any ships with firepower and durability equivalent to their fleet costs when compared to squadrons.

Just so we are clear, the upcoming Wave 5 squadrons include the following:

Rogue Grit Bombers that can be fielded in large enough groups to compete with Star Destroyers

Heavy Rogue Counter flying bricks that can be fielded to compete with Star Destroyers

Rogue Bombers that can be fielded to compete with Star Destroyers

Bombers with dice output comparable to ace squadrons to compete with Star Destroyers

Swarm 7 pt squadrons that can output firepower on par with bombers and be fielded to compete with Star Destroyers.

Strategic squadrons that can be fielded to deny your opponent from getting objective tokens.

Basically, we're seeing that nearly every element of the game from firepower to durability to even the ability to collect or influence objective tokens is being taken over by squadrons. This leaves the large ships that were advertised as the main selling point of this game in a position where they can't actually do much of anything except possibly activate squadrons.

Now, it's possible that in the next handful of waves something is going to drastically reduce the power of those squadrons. But it's becoming increasingly clear that many ships are going to lose the "should I take ships or squadrons" game, at least until the next wave. Some will get better, but some are going to fall even further behind.

I don't know how you can so quietly argue against people who refuse to even consider perspectives beside their own. I'm really beginning to dislike how clique-y people who play this game feel.

=)

Part of what makes this game feel weird is just how useless large ship centric fleets are. And that doesn't mean 1 large ship with a clod of fighters. That means maybe even 2 large ships, or 1 large ship where the large ship is intended to be the damage dealer.

Armada has a swarm problem, of two proportions: both fighter spam and MSU activation problems.

Honestly, I'm not sure actually if one would even consider 400 points a real fleet. It feels more like a skirmish force. ONE star destroyer? Those things hyperspaced in groups. Like, 3 at a time. Go ahead, what Star Wars movie battles occur with ONE star destroyer? I mean, this whole thing of fighter being important is overblown. Endor wasn't about masses of fighters bowing up star destroyers. They took down like two, and one with a conc fire command from Ackbar.

I go play in a regional

Congrats on third!

Thanks! It was fun.

I accomplished two goals: 1. I cracked the top 4 and got that nice new orange ruler. 2. I put Madine on the top 4 on Schmitty's regional data page. Speaking of which, the second place finisher was an Imperial Konstantine list, so we can add that to the list of admirals to finally crack a top 4. We also had a pretty good Imperial/Rebel split in terms of both players and results. More on that another time.

Where are these results btw? It would be nice to see these supposed mentioned no squadron fleets.

I go play in a regional

Congrats on third!

Thanks! It was fun.

I accomplished two goals: 1. I cracked the top 4 and got that nice new orange ruler. 2. I put Madine on the top 4 on Schmitty's regional data page. Speaking of which, the second place finisher was an Imperial Konstantine list, so we can add that to the list of admirals to finally crack a top 4. We also had a pretty good Imperial/Rebel split in terms of both players and results. More on that another time.

Where are these results btw? It would be nice to see these supposed mentioned no squadron fleets.

The results were posted by player name to the San Antonio Facebook page. I unfortunately didn't get to go and had to sit here at home playing armchair admiral with an infant in one hand, so there were probably no squadronless fleets there...

Top 3 were:

1. Brikhause

2. TallGiraffe

3. Vergilius

I have no idea what the lists were (except that supposedly Brikhause was running his Rieekan Aceholes from the Worlds top table), but I'm sure one of those who made it grabbed the full info.

Honestly, I'm not sure actually if one would even consider 400 points a real fleet. It feels more like a skirmish force. ONE star destroyer? Those things hyperspaced in groups. Like, 3 at a time. Go ahead, what Star Wars movie battles occur with ONE star destroyer? I mean, this whole thing of fighter being important is overblown. Endor wasn't about masses of fighters bowing up star destroyers. They took down like two, and one with a conc fire command from Ackbar.

I believe what you're looking for is the final game in a CC campaign. That's an officially sanctioned 1000+ point per side battle.

Mass battles don't happen every day, dontcha know? More like one in every three movies. Skirmishes are going to be much more common....

Someone grabbed full info. The TO has an account here, I'm just not sure of the user-name.

Brikhause had his Rieekan's Aceholes, and to the best of my knowledge, that was the same as the runner-up worlds list.

For lists used at the regionals to-date and their result, look for Schmitty's Regional Data thread. It was back on page 3 last I checked, but as soon as updates come in, I'm sure it will be back around to the first page.

There is nothing wrong with expressing concern about power creep of squadrons in this game. With flotillas and the next batch of squadrons, they will become an ever dominating presence compared to what the game had when it first came out.

Assuming you mean wave one, i think you've chosen an unfair point in the game's evolution to compare it to. Of course the squadron game will seem enhanced, compared to the days when no-squadron lists ruled the meta. Being unhappy with anything but a return to that (which is what you essentially stated) means returning to the days of (imho) an incomplete game.

My personal beef with them is compared to the wonderful models of the capital ships, the squadrons are nothing but little blobs of grey plastic. I think the real problem is people paid a lot of money for the wonderful ship models only to watch them die pathetically to little blobs of plastic.

Would you be happier if your ships died to nicely painted little blobs of plastic? Some of us have those available.

Actually I didn't essentially state that. That was all YOU. I said there was nothing wrong with people expressing a concern about a fundamental shift in the game. I am not exactly one of those people but they shouldn't be attacked for expressing that concern.

And yes, I would prefer the reach around, thank you.

I can attest as someone who loves the squadron game, and places high value in learning to be good at it. It is not the end all be all. Ard has a very scary and accomplished list that does very well in ignoring the squadron game and going for the jugular. I am not sure just anyone can fly it though. In all my competitions I have never seen someone more skilled in using the MC30 than Ard. If he had shown up in Houston tonight it would have been a very different outcome mark my words. I do welcome others to explore his list and modifications of it. All it will do is force me to better my game and learn to counter it. I may gripe and complain at times when I see something more powerful than it should be, but in the end that is life in general. Learning to adapt and overcome is one of the joys I have in this game. If it were easy it would be called x-wing!

It would be really nice if someone could post or copy paste it. There seems to not be much in the way of helping people get better at the game. I'm definitely not going to go join the San Antonio Armada FB page...

Dont want to read all posts but emmjay I think you are wrong. Armada is a SW univers game. In each film and book fighters are on equal in dealing with opponents (both death stras where destroyed by fighters).

SW:Armada is evolveing like tactic in WW2. Before and at the start evryone underestimate planes. Many specialist said that they are waste of money. At the end of war they where main naval combat asset.

I dont have any problems with fighters. I play without them. I learn how to destroy them befor they start killing me. Wave 5 bring a perfect tool to cope with fighters. Fletchette Missiles are a holy grail that I was lookin to cope with the fightes. My raiders and gladII decimate them with ease now.

Hell I want to see more stuff with squadrons not less.

Something like:

Captain Upgrade:

Commander, Air Group (CAG)

The squadrons you active with a squadron command or token gain the intercept ability. Any enemy squadron that flies within distance 2 of those squadrons is halted and engaged.

Cost = 5

i just don't understand-evidence shows all ships are viable. the only thing that is not viable is a fleet with multiple large/medium ships with nothing to add to the activations.

and it SHOULDNT be viable; i dont understand where people get the idea that ANY large warship can simply barge into a fight without escorts.

i dont get the idea of a 3-ISD list with zero smaler, supportive vessels being "fluffy" . thats not fleet combat.

designing "carrier battlegroups" of one large carrier, 1-2 escorts and a flotilla; that is fleet combat.

designing "battleship battlegroups" of a large battleship, 1-2 scorts and a flotilla. that is fleet combat.

saying "flet combat is only about fleets with huge ships cause thats what movies show" is just like saying "infantry is all about using rifles cause thats what the movies show" (hint: there are TONS of other roles in an infantry regiment than just "rifle" ).

large ships have a role. same as medium, small flotillas. isnt that good? should only large ships carry the day?

Let me ask you this though, will there be a point where Squadrons are Too good? Like, it becomes a stupidly dumb idea to buy big ships when X+Y+Z combination out of a small ship is so much better for enhancing fighters and other small ships? Like prolific turrets in X-Wing almost completely killing the idea of maneuver-and-fight that existed in the game before the Falcon was released.

Yavaris with equivalent fighters is so much more deadly than any medium or large ship with a title. Demolisher triple tap is unmatched in what it could destroy. Most of us feared Mon Karren when it appeared, but how much has the LIberty impacted the game since it was released?

I accept that I'll have to adapt and take fighters. I'm happy that it coincides with some of my favorite Imperial craft. But I still think there needs to be some bones thrown for capital ship support. Flichette Torps is an interesting start that we'll have to see how far it ultimately goes to dampen the squadron advantages. But Capital ship resilience really only has Tua to help the EMpire make the best of their high hull and shields. Otherwise they are still just as vulnerable to multiple small attacks as ever.

I don't know how anyone could think squadrons are bad for the game. Have you SEEN Star Wars? The snubfighters are integral parts of every battle.

"Was sold as ship combat" yet is called Armada...hmm

I say it every time this same thread pops up:

Guys. I'm seriously, you guys.Try Mothma MC30's.

Mon Mothma's Admonition can.

I can personally attest to this. I've played several games using slight variations of this guy's Mothma list. All of those games have been against the Rebel heavy squadron focused lists and let me tell you it works like a charm. Zero squadrons needed. I personally run a few MC30s, couple flotillas, and a Jaina's Light TRC CR90 with Mothma and it absolutely wrecks these squadron focused lists with a couple flotillas and couple real ships. It's hard to fly but once you learn how to navigate those MC30s you'll feel unstoppable.

Edit: and you know what? I bet this list will still work well in wave 5 and CC.

I disagree on one point here. Mon Mothma really doesnt offer that much. Admonitionnis strong enough without her.

On a similar arguments, I wrote the following article in the midst of wave III and IV. Not much has changed, its still viable.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/232159-ackbars-mc30-star-destroyers-and-tycho%E2%80%99s-circus/#entry2452451

The only complaint here that I somewhat understand is the difficulties flying triple ISD, however, I think this is something that has to be conceded. Dual ISD is more than viable!

This game is dull as crap without squadrons.

If you are having trouble with bombers killing your capital ships, take more X-wings/TIEs.

I say it every time this same thread pops up:

Guys. I'm seriously, you guys.Try Mothma MC30's.

Mon Mothma's Admonition can.

I can personally attest to this. I've played several games using slight variations of this guy's Mothma list. All of those games have been against the Rebel heavy squadron focused lists and let me tell you it works like a charm. Zero squadrons needed. I personally run a few MC30s, couple flotillas, and a Jaina's Light TRC CR90 with Mothma and it absolutely wrecks these squadron focused lists with a couple flotillas and couple real ships. It's hard to fly but once you learn how to navigate those MC30s you'll feel unstoppable.

Edit: and you know what? I bet this list will still work well in wave 5 and CC.

I disagree on one point here. Mon Mothma really doesnt offer that much. Admonitionnis strong enough without her.

On a similar arguments, I wrote the following article in the midst of wave III and IV. Not much has changed, its still viable.https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/232159-ackbars-mc30-star-destroyers-and-tycho’s-circus/#entry2452451

The only complaint here that I somewhat understand is the difficulties flying triple ISD, however, I think this is something that has to be conceded. Dual ISD is more than viable!

Mothma offers a large boost, even to Admonition. You can first make them reroll the bomber hit/crit with Mothma, THEN if it's still bad you can admonition it