I love squadrons.... Get good...

Bump the (too) low cost of flotillas by 50% and people would think twice before investing in empty flotillas.

The Pelta and Interdictor both have higher cost due to their upgrades, why wasn't it the same with flotillas?

I love squadrons.... Get good...

People are not complaining about losing to squadrons, they're complaining about the omnipresence of squadrons. Plz don't be a troll in these threads.

I love squadrons but squadrons are a disproportionate threat to captial ships. There is always a possibility of future upgrades that can Balance out the game.

Rogue One had a nice fleet battle. Plenty of squadrons in use there including one hell of a TIE swarm.

The FIX would be to have flotillas' points count in the squadron total points.

I dont know about minority. Quite a lot of lists with more transports than warships, seems to me the big capital ships are the real minority here. The strategic depth of the game is more and more fighter-centric, and I bet a lot of players first concern is: Will my squads be sufficient?

My problem are not squads per se, which are clearly needed for SW, but that 400 point battles feel so un-epic, especially with the flotillas. Of course I can agree to whatever I want with other players, but for all the practical reasons 400 pts will remain the standard game for competition, and thats really just a skirmish now.

Bomber command centers exclusively for flotillas, I think thats just a bad design decision, doubly taking away from the warship aspect of the game.

In the only two major space battle we have on screen during the galactic civil war gr75s are everywhere

Rogue One had a nice fleet battle. Plenty of squadrons in use there including one hell of a TIE swarm.

The FIX would be to have flotillas' points count in the squadron total points.

that's actually genius.

I love squadrons.... Get good...

People are not complaining about losing to squadrons, they're complaining about the omnipresence of squadrons. Plz don't be a troll in these threads.

Well, when they don't have anything constructive to say.....

I love squadrons but squadrons are a disproportionate threat to captial ships. There is always a possibility of future upgrades that can Balance out the game.

Exactly. That is my point. When players are more mindful of squadrons and not my VSD/ISD Avenger combo bearing down on you, then there is a serious issue.

Look, the 8 Y-Wings taken at Worlds this year, along with the bomber command re-rolls, can deal a potential 16 damage (plus extra damage from crits). No ship, not even an ISD, can handle that firepower, no matter what upgrades you put on them. Even with Reinforced Blast Doors, which only activate at the start of a ships phase, you can still totally take out any one ship, or potentially 2 a turn. And yes, I have seen it happen many, many times.

Rogue One had a nice fleet battle. Plenty of squadrons in use there including one hell of a TIE swarm.

The FIX would be to have flotillas' points count in the squadron total points.

that's actually genius.

Now, that, I totally agree with as another fix.

I'm only asking cause I don't want to spoil have you seen rogue one?

I'm only asking cause I don't want to spoil have you seen rogue one?

Me? No. GF doesn't want to see it, so I'll have to sneak out to the cinema by myself ahah.

It is not one ship in a squadron but many. And yes they could bring down a capital ship if not delt with.

Just ask the guys who faught WW2 war.

Never underestimate some bombers. It won't help even how large ship you have.

I think squadrons are an important part of the game and have a place in Armada. I'm not opposed to squadron lists winning. However, I do feel there is a point where capital ships become more valued for their Fighter command rating and mere activation presence than their battery, hull, and shields. In short, large ships become more redundant, and the points invested in them are better spent on a combination of small ships and fighters for activations. As far as I know, only the Imperial Star Destroyer... of the heavy and medium ships... has avoided falling into this pit.

The key point in all of this is that large ships have no means to defend themselves against multiple small attacks , be it from fighters or multiple small ships (like CR-90s with TRCs). When they find themselves here, they have to rely on their hull and shield values to weather the assault, but it's only a matter of time and their defense tokens are usually overloaded after a fighter barrage. As the big ships have only two attacks each turn they cannot respond well enough to the target-rich environment. In order to attack both fighters and capital ships, you need seven points more to allow gunnery teams to fire out of the same arc, and that's still no guarantee that you could kill enough squadrons. Moreover with each shot you devote to squadrons, the less of a chance you have to finish your small ship adversaries. Even if you knock one out, it's only a small points portion and one activation in a sea of many.

Large capital ships also struggle against being out-activated by MSUs, putting the advantage in attack bonuses completely on the side of the MSU list which has control over timing. The only way around it is to bid for first player to guarantee your first shot, but you're giving away upgrade points AND the objective to do so.

Part of what exasperates the war between starships and fighters is that Squadrons remain the most effective anti-squadron tool in the ship's arsenal. That's completely fair, but capital ships feel so helpless in an absence of squadrons that rather than fielding fine-tuned guneships, a strong fighter presence is essential. Anything less than a strong squad sees the smaller squadron eaten alive, downing you points, and putting your capital ships at risk. This means degunning your capital gunship builds or going to smaller ships.

This is where we are now, where fighters and MSUs are stronger than gun ISD/VSD and MC80/A-F builds. You get more bang out of your buck investing in fighters, support for fighters, and small ships than large ships with big batteries. This advantage, until recently, was in the hands of the Rebels. Sure Demo and Rhymer were dictating the meta for a time, but notice the conspicuous absence of generic TIE Fighters and Interceptors because of how easily they are chewed apart by incidental capital ship fire. Rebels, on the other hand, have healthy hull 4+ fighters to command across their entire range. Empire got by with massed Rogues or bombers under Rhymer. Not really much for diversity. I know because for a long while I've been trying to field lists without them and kept getting flattened.

However I don't think the squadron game should change from where it is presently. Wave 5 adds more interesting things to the game to make it more than just the bigger ball. For my part, Empire has some interesting squadrons to compete with the Rebels now, even if the Rebels got even stronger in the fighter game out of the cc pack (Imperial ace squads feel disappointing to me by comparison). The squadron portion, like all aspects of the game, should feel interesting.

But I do feel the pendulum should swing back to capital ship advantages in the near future. I want reasons to take upgunned VSDs and choose commands other than fighter activation. I want to feel the satisfaction of landing a turbolaser hammer on an enemy starship and leaving it crippled without worrying about how Yavaris is going to take my glorious battleship apart. And I want to see opposite of my lists some rebel fleets that include more large and medium ships for an equal exchange.

Exactly. That is my point. When players are more mindful of squadrons and not my VSD/ISD Avenger combo bearing down on you, then there is a serious issue.

Look, the 8 Y-Wings taken at Worlds this year, along with the bomber command re-rolls, can deal a potential 16 damage (plus extra damage from crits). No ship, not even an ISD, can handle that firepower, no matter what upgrades you put on them. Even with Reinforced Blast Doors, which only activate at the start of a ships phase, you can still totally take out any one ship, or potentially 2 a turn. And yes, I have seen it happen many, many times.

The problem there is bomber command, not the ywings. Rerolling until you get the result you want is just way OP mechanic. The dice become a waste of time game mechanic. Bomber command will be addressed, probably will get exhausted when used.

I dont know about minority. Quite a lot of lists with more transports than warships, seems to me the big capital ships are the real minority here. The strategic depth of the game is more and more fighter-centric, and I bet a lot of players first concern is: Will my squads be sufficient?

My problem are not squads per se, which are clearly needed for SW, but that 400 point battles feel so un-epic, especially with the flotillas. Of course I can agree to whatever I want with other players, but for all the practical reasons 400 pts will remain the standard game for competition, and thats really just a skirmish now.

Bomber command centers exclusively for flotillas, I think thats just a bad design decision, doubly taking away from the warship aspect of the game.

In the only two major space battle we have on screen during the galactic civil war gr75s are everywhere

Any mentioning of the combat role of those gr75s in the original books, or the novellizations now? I cant remember, and did not check, but somehow I sont think they have been described as essential to any space battles. As decoys, spare material, whatever, yes, but the Empire did not exactly target the gr75s with the Death Star. The answer I expect now is "they better should have, so that the fighter wing would not have entered the Death Star and blown it apart with the bomber command center coordination hidden in one inconspicuous gr75". Next time I can, I check the novel

Exactly. That is my point. When players are more mindful of squadrons and not my VSD/ISD Avenger combo bearing down on you, then there is a serious issue.

Look, the 8 Y-Wings taken at Worlds this year, along with the bomber command re-rolls, can deal a potential 16 damage (plus extra damage from crits). No ship, not even an ISD, can handle that firepower, no matter what upgrades you put on them. Even with Reinforced Blast Doors, which only activate at the start of a ships phase, you can still totally take out any one ship, or potentially 2 a turn. And yes, I have seen it happen many, many times.

The problem there is bomber command, not the ywings. Rerolling until you get the result you want is just way OP mechanic. The dice become a waste of time game mechanic. Bomber command will be addressed, probably will get exhausted when used.

Or implementing the "you cannot re-roll dice that have already been re-rolled" rule that X-Wing has...

Flotillas arent the issue, Rhymer has never been the issue, Mauler isnt OP.

Intell has always been the issue. Wave 5 massively nerfs the power of intel.

Let it play out before complaining.

Dude have you ever watched Star Wars?

The Starfighters did most of the fighting. Ships were mostly launch bays and some anti-fighter support.

Now I will admit at the core it is all about the big capital ships and the game still is but now squadrons is something you have to take into consideration. you don't have to take them, but that means you can't just ignore them. Saying squadrons have no place in Armada is like saying vehicles are bad for Warhammer 40,000.

I will also admit the core game feels closer to Star Trek than Star Wars. It is a shame we don't have a Star Trek game that utilizes Armada core rules.

Someone had suggested that large ships should be able to pass their activation if all your opponent has left to activate are small bases. Or something like that. I feel like that might be a workable solution if the activation game continues to be an issue. Probably needs a bit more nuance than just that.

Imperial Assault works that way, can pass if opponent has more activations. I could see that fix coming.

Maxing out on squadrons has a lot of benefits in tournaments. If your most expensive "ship" is 134 points of squadrons, it's very hard for your opponent to take out, unless he also went all in on squads. Maxed out squad compliments are capable of throwing more dice than any ship in the game, can absorbe more shots than any ship in the game, and are more manoeuvrable than any ship in the game. From what I've seen, squads have pushed large ships, or any ship over 100 points out of the meta.

Guys you are way underestimating double aa dice

Is there a place for those of us who are ok with some squadrons and a little worried that as the definitive winners of wave five and the corelian conflict that squadrons will be too dominating in a game that was sold under the idea of star destroyers V corvettes.

Is there a place for those of us who are ok with some squadrons and a little worried that as the definitive winners of wave five and the corelian conflict that squadrons will be too dominating in a game that was sold under the idea of star destroyers V corvettes.

I think that is this thread because I feel those things.

Guys you are way underestimating double aa dice

No, this is why you don't see en-masse TIE Fighters and TIE interceptors flying against Rebel fighters. It's soo incidentally easy to shoot down TIE Fighter squadrons I don't think they stand a chance unless you activate them first and throw them into the fray. It's much too easy for Rebel fighters to kill what should have been the bread and butter Imperial squadrons that for Empire it isn't worth it. Since both sides can activate the same number of fighters out of their capital ships, it's better to have more resilient fighters, which the Rebellion has.

That's why people don't bother with anything other than Rhymer with Bombers with the occasional advanced when flying generics. And Activating Rogues is a bit of a waste, not to mention they are costed higher than the average Rebel squadron for minimal bonuses.

Fortunately that's changed with the new fighter pack. Everything in the Empire is hull 4 or higher, giving the Empire some staying power with some not-to-bad advantages to go with it.

Armada was designed, and sold to the public, as a game about large ships fighting each other.

Was it?

Yes it was.