I wonder if Intel never existed in the game, if the tune would change? I'm willing to bet Grit would be much more desirable.

Loud musings...

I wonder if Intel never existed in the game, if the tune would change? I'm willing to bet Grit would be much more desirable.

Loud musings...

I think this is absolutely correct. Intel makes Grits utility so low.

a couple of card ideas that would buff large ships without nerfing fighters too bad:

defensive retrofit: brace/redirect tokens to last until the next ship attack or end of round, whichever comes first. (So an entire squadron phase or a ships squadrons) Braces would still be applied separately to each bomber attack, but spending it to reduce every TIE bomber black die to 1 hit or 1 crit.

a card that would allow conc fire dials to apply to the entire anti-squad shoot.

Offensive retrofit: Squad command: Instead of activating squadrons, roll 1 blue die against a number of enemy squadrons equal to the number of squadrons that you would have been able to activate.

Carriers with H9's pushing Tie Defenders = happy

One upgrade for large ships that I don't see being mentioned that much, but which strikes fear into me as a Rebel squadron player, is Quad Laser Turrets. So why aren't more people taking this?

Currently, I think the answer would be Major Rhymer. But he's only going to show up in Imperial lists, and with the coming of Snipe he won't be sticking around as long.

So, my question to the large ship lovers out there (and I do consider myself one): do you see a role for QLT, and if not, why not?

One upgrade for large ships that I don't see being mentioned that much, but which strikes fear into me as a Rebel squadron player, is Quad Laser Turrets. So why aren't more people taking this?

Currently, I think the answer would be Major Rhymer. But he's only going to show up in Imperial lists, and with the coming of Snipe he won't be sticking around as long.

So, my question to the large ship lovers out there (and I do consider myself one): do you see a role for QLT, and if not, why not?

People don't use QLT because it's very unreliable. A single blue only has a 50% hit chance if I'm correct, and believe me, you won't get that hit when you need it. Crits don't count of course, and accuracies are just as useless. And, if you get a single hit against an imperial ace with scatter, well, that won't do much.

QLT is expensive for .5 damage to an attacking squadron.

One upgrade for large ships that I don't see being mentioned that much, but which strikes fear into me as a Rebel squadron player, is Quad Laser Turrets. So why aren't more people taking this?

Currently, I think the answer would be Major Rhymer. But he's only going to show up in Imperial lists, and with the coming of Snipe he won't be sticking around as long.

So, my question to the large ship lovers out there (and I do consider myself one): do you see a role for QLT, and if not, why not?

I do see QLT as a solid upgrade for ISDs. It can discourage opponent from attacking your flagship, it can push the amount of damage into killing territory with AS shots. YT2400s and Yavaris hate it. So the answer is yes, I believe it is a solid upgrade that will see play.

One upgrade for large ships that I don't see being mentioned that much, but which strikes fear into me as a Rebel squadron player, is Quad Laser Turrets. So why aren't more people taking this?

Currently, I think the answer would be Major Rhymer. But he's only going to show up in Imperial lists, and with the coming of Snipe he won't be sticking around as long.

So, my question to the large ship lovers out there (and I do consider myself one): do you see a role for QLT, and if not, why not?

People don't use QLT because it's very unreliable. A single blue only has a 50% hit chance if I'm correct, and believe me, you won't get that hit when you need it. Crits don't count of course, and accuracies are just as useless. And, if you get a single hit against an imperial ace with scatter, well, that won't do much.

Yet it's currently the most effective tool to enhance a ship's anti-squadron firepower, especially a large ship that's sure to be the focus of enemy bombers (ISD). 5 points is nothing compared to the cost of a large ship.

And if you're being attacked by 8 squadrons, that's 4 damage a turn you're dealing out....without having to give up an attack.

No, it's not going to stop enemy squadrons by itself. Nor should it, at 5 points. But it can be a significant threat to enemy squadrons, especially if you have a fighter force able to take down squadrons with only 1 or 2 HP left.

Heck, it'll give any 4-health squad (the ever-popular A-wings, and soon Lancers) a real reason to NOT attack a QLT ship. And that's what large ship lovers are looking for, correct?

The problem with Quad Laser Turrets is individually it's not a lot of damage and it consumes a moderately-contested slot. When combined with regular flak and squadrons it can get more work done but when I've already worked out my anti-bomber squadrons I always feel like spending a few more points upgrading them (with aces, more squadrons, Flight Controllers on a ship, etc.) is more reliable than dropping points on Quad Laser Turrets.

I most frequently see QLTs in fleets with zero squadrons. The designers think that will be sufficient to handle bombers. They are quickly proven wrong.

I should note that the one exception to this rule I would make is Agent Kallus. Being able to use QLTs Counter for one blue + one black (usually, anyways) against unique squadrons can be pretty appealing provided the costs (in both regular points and upgrade slots) are bearable.

IMO, instead of QLTs, we should have had Flak Cannons. For the same price, they fire counter 1 black die instead of blue die. But it's too late now, we have QLTs for 5, so Flak Cannons would likely cost 7...

I wonder if Intel never existed in the game, if the tune would change? I'm willing to bet Grit would be much more desirable.

Loud musings...

I agree. Without a lone Intel carrier it means big ships can afford to invest in cheaper fighter screens to stop the best bomber swarms, at least being a speedbump that the Empire pays 8 points for to let their capital ships shine. One Intel carrier covering the blob (of X-Wings?) and now anything less than a serious fighter investment to stop that ball won't work, since the Bombers are still doing their jobs regardless of enemy fighter interference.

Rebels having better escorts exasperates the problem for Imperial players, because X-Wings work as decent bombers and have serious attack power. A fighter ball has to cut through every X-Wing to get to the Intel carrier, allowing B-Wings and other Xs to attack capital ship targets, and get to the end-game condition of killing starships better.

One upgrade for large ships that I don't see being mentioned that much, but which strikes fear into me as a Rebel squadron player, is Quad Laser Turrets. So why aren't more people taking this?

Currently, I think the answer would be Major Rhymer. But he's only going to show up in Imperial lists, and with the coming of Snipe he won't be sticking around as long.

So, my question to the large ship lovers out there (and I do consider myself one): do you see a role for QLT, and if not, why not?

For a time I was taking QLTs on two GSD-IIs backed with Gunnery teams. It only moderately put a dent against the Yavaris B-Wing ball I set it against. I wasn't outputting enough damage to do harm against the clustered Rebel squadrons I wanted to destroy. Now, if I could have mounted Point Defense Reroute or any other way to re-roll my blue dice on the cheap for those situations (Vader doesn't spread far enough), perhaps it could work. Perhaps PDR and QLTs work better on a charging ISD-I. At least... until someone brings Rhymer.

As a side note, Cluster Bombs is a wasted opportunity. The title screams that it should be a card smacking every fighter squadron in a firing arc, which would have also been a big help for ships looking for anti-fighter options. Presumably this wasn't a thing, to prevent hitting every squadron twice from the same arc, as if to preserve the TIE Fighters that are already critically vulnerable now.

Perhaps PDR and QLTs work better on a charging ISD-I. At least... until someone brings Rhymer.

Tried it, a waste of points. Alothough, QLT alone on low squad/no squad ISD fleet is worth it. Essentially you need to have enough hull for QLT to pay for itself.

For a time I was taking QLTs on two GSD-IIs backed with Gunnery teams. It only moderately put a dent against the Yavaris B-Wing ball I set it against. I wasn't outputting enough damage to do harm against the clustered Rebel squadrons I wanted to destroy. Now, if I could have mounted Point Defense Reroute or any other way to re-roll my blue dice on the cheap for those situations (Vader doesn't spread far enough), perhaps it could work. Perhaps PDR and QLTs work better on a charging ISD-I. At least... until someone brings Rhymer.

I think QLT works better on an ISD, as you need the squads to shoot at you for it to go off. So having it on two medium ships risks the enemy squadrons focusing on one ship at a time - which takes QLT out of play for the other ship. With an ISD's bazillion hull points it allows the investment to pay off.

EDIT: ninja'd by pt106

I just realized that you also don't want your fighter escort engaging early, as that would prevent the QLT from going off. You want shots taken on your ISD as early and as often as possible. The fighters need to hang back and clean up the weakened squadrons...hmmm, may have to try this out.

I feel it's contrary to lead with my heavy ships into a fighter swarm, but they do have the hull to tank some hits and with QLTs, incentives to put them in harms' way to deal damage against squadrons. With PDR accuracy is your only problem.

The only ship I feel safe to try this on though is Devastator, which gets nastier the more your opponent hits it with.

Hmm. at this point, I'm kinda in favor of 500 too. Although, this game is kinda long.

I disagree with red AA dice. But more upgrades for fighting squadrons without needing squadrons would be nice.

I think this is where that alternate idea of using squadron values or required # of points for squads would have been an interesting game.

Have you tried? I recently started introducing 500/150 games as a fun, come over and play but I'll time us kinda thing for more seasoned players and we're completing game around the same time.

The problem with Quad Laser Turrets is individually it's not a lot of damage and it consumes a moderately-contested slot. When combined with regular flak and squadrons it can get more work done but when I've already worked out my anti-bomber squadrons I always feel like spending a few more points upgrading them (with aces, more squadrons, Flight Controllers on a ship, etc.) is more reliable than dropping points on Quad Laser Turrets.

I most frequently see QLTs in fleets with zero squadrons. The designers think that will be sufficient to handle bombers. They are quickly proven wrong.

I should note that the one exception to this rule I would make is Agent Kallus. Being able to use QLTs Counter for one blue + one black (usually, anyways) against unique squadrons can be pretty appealing provided the costs (in both regular points and upgrade slots) are bearable.

I have used the quad laser turrets and zero squadrons several times, and it has worked out fine. Now as others have said it is mostly with large ships with lots of hull points and some small based anti-squadron ships.

Why don't people fly with more H9s if they are concerned with the flotilla meta?

Also, for the record I regularly lose the squadron war with my mate, yet I've won 5 of our last 5 games. Go figure.

I wonder if Intel never existed in the game, if the tune would change? I'm willing to bet Grit would be much more desirable.

Loud musings...

I agree. Without a lone Intel carrier it means big ships can afford to invest in cheaper fighter screens to stop the best bomber swarms, at least being a speedbump that the Empire pays 8 points for to let their capital ships shine. One Intel carrier covering the blob (of X-Wings?) and now anything less than a serious fighter investment to stop that ball won't work, since the Bombers are still doing their jobs regardless of enemy fighter interference.

Rebels having better escorts exasperates the problem for Imperial players, because X-Wings work as decent bombers and have serious attack power. A fighter ball has to cut through every X-Wing to get to the Intel carrier, allowing B-Wings and other Xs to attack capital ship targets, and get to the end-game condition of killing starships better.

One upgrade for large ships that I don't see being mentioned that much, but which strikes fear into me as a Rebel squadron player, is Quad Laser Turrets. So why aren't more people taking this?

Currently, I think the answer would be Major Rhymer. But he's only going to show up in Imperial lists, and with the coming of Snipe he won't be sticking around as long.

So, my question to the large ship lovers out there (and I do consider myself one): do you see a role for QLT, and if not, why not?

For a time I was taking QLTs on two GSD-IIs backed with Gunnery teams. It only moderately put a dent against the Yavaris B-Wing ball I set it against. I wasn't outputting enough damage to do harm against the clustered Rebel squadrons I wanted to destroy. Now, if I could have mounted Point Defense Reroute or any other way to re-roll my blue dice on the cheap for those situations (Vader doesn't spread far enough), perhaps it could work. Perhaps PDR and QLTs work better on a charging ISD-I. At least... until someone brings Rhymer.

The GSD can't take QLTs

As a side note, Cluster Bombs is a wasted opportunity. The title screams that it should be a card smacking every fighter squadron in a firing arc, which would have also been a big help for ships looking for anti-fighter options. Presumably this wasn't a thing, to prevent hitting every squadron twice from the same arc, as if to preserve the TIE Fighters that are already critically vulnerable now.

Or if they in addition to their effect did 1 dmg to all squadrons at distance 1 of the original target. Something along those lines.

Over the 2 turns that it takes a dedicated Rebel bomber wing to kill an ISD, QLT will do an average of 1 damage to each bomber squadron.

That's just not worth 5 points in my list.

Over the 2 turns that it takes a dedicated Rebel bomber wing to kill an ISD, QLT will do an average of 1 damage to each bomber squadron.

That's just not worth 5 points in my list.

Try looking at it this way...would you pay 5 points to upgrade your ISD's antisquad firepower from 2 blues to 3?

(Yes it's not quite the same but bear with me and try reframing it for a second)

Over the 2 turns that it takes a dedicated Rebel bomber wing to kill an ISD, QLT will do an average of 1 damage to each bomber squadron.

That's just not worth 5 points in my list.

Try looking at it this way...would you pay 5 points to upgrade your ISD's antisquad firepower from 2 blues to 3?

(Yes it's not quite the same but bear with me and try reframing it for a second)

I could see it being useful if you have an anti-fighter/bomber detachment as well as the QLT.

Y-wings and B-Wings likely don't care about an extra blue counter, but might if they also have TIE defenders bearing down on them.

At that point though, does the investment in QLT even make sense?

I ran the qlt before someone pointed out to me you can't run two of the same upgrade on a single ship. Counter 1x2 was fun.