Squadrons - why they are a bad thing in Armada

By emmjay, in Star Wars: Armada

Armada was designed, and sold to the public, as a game about large ships fighting each other. Squadrons weren't a big sell, or a big push - FFG has X-Wing for that. More of a "side action" to the main business of large ships shooting at each other again and again. If a squadron or few did happed to attack and deal damage to a ship, great, if not, no big deal. I remember podcasts talking about only taking 4 TIE Fighters as a starfighter screen, and being effective at it.

Then Worlds 2015 happened and Jonathan Reinig showed just how powerful an A-Wing swarm can be against the Gencon Special, and the amount of damage that they can dish out during a game. The same thing happened in 2016 but with Y-Wings supported by HWK's and YT-1300's.

I believe that for their point cost, compared to what starships can do, squadrons are under costed, or at least have way to much health for their price. That, coupled with flotillias and Bomber Command for multiple bomber reroll's, squadrons are necessary, and a max point squadron section is almost required.

Let me break it down this way. The GR-75 Combat Retrofit (24 points) has a single blue die to deal with starships, and another blue to deal with squadrons. It boasts a total of 4 points of damage absorption "life", with only a single scatter to try stop damage. The single evade is good for long and medium distances, but is worthless close up. So, as long as the attacker is able to deal 4 damage and have a single accuracy (or 2), the GR-75 is all but guaranteed dead. And that doesn't include all the other things that the ship can do, like upgrades that it can take. So, for 24 points you get a really good ship.

Now, lets compare that to a single A-Wing squadron (11points). It has speed 5 so it goes faster than the GR-75. It has the same "life" at 4. It has a better anti-squadron armament at 3 blues, and can attack ships at range 1 with a single black die. And, it has an ability to attack with 2 dice against a squadron that just attacked it. True, it doesn't get any tokens or have the ability to take upgrades. But, for a single A-Wing Squadron, you are getting a lot of bang for your buck, and if you want to compare points to points, you can take 2 A-Wings for less than the cost of the GR-75.

Even worse is the Y-Wing(10 points) when compared to the GR-75. It can move about the same speed as the GR-75, can attack squadrons with 2 blue dice, and ships with a single black die. And, because the Y-Wing is a bomber, the crit on the black die counts as more damage, and the ship can be affected by cards that affect bombers (I'm looking at you Bomber Command). I am ignoring heavy as it has no affect with/against starships. All that, and 6 points of hull. So. no single attack can actually kill the Y-Wing, and it generally takes 2-3 squadrons to attack the Y-Wing be able to kill it, as accuracies mean nothing, as well as crits. Finally, for 20 points you get two of them.

So, how do we fix this problem? First off, starships need to be able to deal more damage a turn against squadrons. Or, instead of rolling dice to see if you damage squadrons, have a set amount of damage on each arc that the ship can do, and the player can put that damage on how many ship(s) they want. So, like, the GR-75 might be able to deal 1 damage to a single squadron (guaranteed) out of each arc, an ISD might be able to deal 6 damage per arc. That's total, so against 2 A-Wings 1 would be dead, the other at 1/2 health. But, against a couple of YT-1300's, 1 would be at 1 hull, the other at full hull.

Or, reduce the number of hull points each squadron has. Reducing the amount of hull a squadron has allows them to die easier to not only other squadrons, but ships as well. I can easily see a reduction of 1 hull point for every squadron.

Finally, I can see a squadron being reduced in points from 134 to 100. While that won't make the problem go away, per se, it does make the issue a little less hard to deal with. Or, make Bomber Command unique.

And now, on to wave 5. Right now, there is very little in the wave that I see changing the squadron heavy mindset. And, some of it, like Relay, only makes it worse. True, they did come out with some nice new abilities, but how many of them can really, truly change the meta? The ships? Same thing.

Armada was designed, and sold to the public, as a game about large ships fighting each other.

Was it?

Honestly I think Decimators are going to be ridiculous.

Oh look

It's this thread again

Armada was designed, and sold to the public, as a game about large ships fighting each other.

Was it?

Seconded.

Argument built on False Premise to draw Pre-assigned Conclusion.

Ooohhhhh Reginald...

I DISAGREE!

It was never marketed as a large ship combat game, it was marketed as a Star Wars fleet combat games. That is (unlike Star Trek) battlecarrier warfare.

I only agree on one point with you. Übertransports are too good for what they acctualy are (mostly armed civilian freighters without military crew).

Armada was designed, and sold to the public, as a game about large ships fighting each other.

Was it?

Seconded.

Argument built on False Premise to draw Pre-assigned Conclusion.

Yes, and the proof is simple.

1. On the link below, Armada is listed as "A game of tactical fleet combat in the Star Wars universe." Fleet, as in ships, not squadrons.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/#/universe/star-wars

2.

Rebel and Imperial fleets fight for the fate of the galaxy in Star Wars ™: Armada, the two-player miniatures game of epic Star Wars space battles!

Massive Star Destroyers fly to battle against Rebel corvettes and frigates. Banks of turbolasers unleash torrential volleys of fire against squadrons of X-wings and TIEs. Engineering teams race to route additional power to failing shields. Laser blasts and explosions flare across the battlefield. Even a single ship can change the tide of battle.

In Star Wars : Armada, you assume the role of fleet admiral, serving with either the Imperial Navy or Rebel Alliance. It’s your job to issue the tactical commands that will decide the course of battle and, perhaps, the fate of the galaxy.

However, battles between capital ships are fought on a massive scale all their own; the more powerful your ships, the harder it is to adjust their actions on the fly. Capital ships can’t easily vary their speeds or execute hairpin turns like the starfighters that buzz around them, so successful admirals must learn to master every aspect of the ships in their fleet and learn how best to implement their strategies well in advance of the initial engagement.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-armada/

That's the current information... Going back into the archives, well, we find this.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2014/8/8/star-wars-tm-armada/

Although Star Wars : Armada is built around the galaxy’s many capital ships, you’ll almost certainly want to fly one or more squadrons of starfighters in your fleet, both to threaten enemy ships and to defend your ships from enemy squadrons.

So, yes, to answer your question, it was sold as a primarily Ship combat game.

I think squads are cool. I take a small screen. That's usually sufficient.

I think squads are cool. I take a small screen. That's usually sufficient.

A-wings FTW

I'm quite certain that the commanders at Midway would have counted their fighters and bombers as a significant part of their fleet. The British admirals commanding the Falklands surely thought of their aircraft as an indespensible part of the fleet. I'm also 100% sure that every adrmiral with a carrier in his fleet views those Hornets and Seahawks and E2s, etc. a part of the fleet. Shall I go on? I agree with Dras and Gink, squadrons were always intended to be an important part of the Armada fleets.

Armada was designed, and sold to the public, as a game about large ships fighting each other.

Was it?

Seconded.

Argument built on False Premise to draw Pre-assigned Conclusion.

Yes, and the proof is simple.

1. On the link below, Armada is listed as "A game of tactical fleet combat in the Star Wars universe." Fleet, as in ships, not squadrons.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/#/universe/star-wars

2.

Rebel and Imperial fleets fight for the fate of the galaxy in Star Wars ™: Armada, the two-player miniatures game of epic Star Wars space battles!

Massive Star Destroyers fly to battle against Rebel corvettes and frigates. Banks of turbolasers unleash torrential volleys of fire against squadrons of X-wings and TIEs. Engineering teams race to route additional power to failing shields. Laser blasts and explosions flare across the battlefield. Even a single ship can change the tide of battle.

In Star Wars : Armada, you assume the role of fleet admiral, serving with either the Imperial Navy or Rebel Alliance. It’s your job to issue the tactical commands that will decide the course of battle and, perhaps, the fate of the galaxy.

However, battles between capital ships are fought on a massive scale all their own; the more powerful your ships, the harder it is to adjust their actions on the fly. Capital ships can’t easily vary their speeds or execute hairpin turns like the starfighters that buzz around them, so successful admirals must learn to master every aspect of the ships in their fleet and learn how best to implement their strategies well in advance of the initial engagement.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-armada/

That's the current information... Going back into the archives, well, we find this.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2014/8/8/star-wars-tm-armada/

Although Star Wars : Armada is built around the galaxy’s many capital ships, you’ll almost certainly want to fly one or more squadrons of starfighters in your fleet, both to threaten enemy ships and to defend your ships from enemy squadrons.

So, yes, to answer your question, it was sold as a primarily Ship combat game.

I hate to break it to you, but your evidence disproves your premise..... Squadrons are part of a fleet. Also in every single major space battle in every movie squadrons are a major focal point.

And imo squadrons were a large part of the game prior to worlds 2015

Star Wars fleets include their Squadrons. So on Point 1, its a definition difference. I can't change that. Don't need to change that.

Even On Point 2, its Anecdotal. And even if I do consign you the point in full - Squadrons are one third of your Fleet. That is, by any stretch, an absolute minority ... So the game is still a Capital Ship game, by being focused in the two-thirds Majority to those capital ships.

Even a Single Ship can change the course of a Game.

Yep. Like a Flotilla with Bomber Command.

I don't have an issue with Squadrons at all, and I see little to make me change my mind...

Mostly because half of the issues you're presenting aren't with the Squadrons - they're with a perception difference that you and I have.

You want to deal 1 Guaranteed Damage to Enemy Squadrons in an Arc? Take Ruthless Strategists. That's what its there for... Even in you're only taking small amounts of squadrons yourself, it lets you leverage that as additional damage.

People seem to be stuck in upgrade ruts - and until such time as they challenge themselves to pull themselves out of them - then they will see Imbalance for what it is...

(I mean, who takes Sensor Teams ? No-one, right, Ginkapo?)

I am complete agreement that the squad game is far too strong and central to this game. Yes, squads are very Star Wars-y, but this is getting a little out of hand. Plus SO MANY KEYWORDS NOW....

I see squadrons in every space battle in every movie. Ergo, If I play a game and only one side (or neither side) has squadrons it doesn't feel like I'm playing a Star Wars game.

Star Wars has always had the feel that the Starfighters can seriously hurt capital ships. Especially en mass.

The OP wants more damage from Cap ships to fighters, there are already upgrades that do this.

In a fleet setting there SHOULD be fighter screens. That's tactics.

I like that there are options on the squads, but I don't like how it feels like you need to spend nearly half of your points on squads and ships meant to push them around.

I'd say that's my gripe at this moment with Armada. But it's just something you need to work with... and/or I'm too dumb to know what would improve the game more than what the makers have designed.

Game balance is a pendulum. For much of this games lifespan squadrons were an afterthought. Now they are more or less a necessity. For me personally thats a good thing because thats what Star Wars space combat looks like literally every single time its depicted ever but sure, from a gameplay standpoint I guess I can see how people want squadronless to be a viable option. For what its worth I'm sure we wont see more fighter influx for a wave or two. But if squadrons/transports are really an issue, they will handle it through new upgrades.

I dont know about minority. Quite a lot of lists with more transports than warships, seems to me the big capital ships are the real minority here. The strategic depth of the game is more and more fighter-centric, and I bet a lot of players first concern is: Will my squads be sufficient?

My problem are not squads per se, which are clearly needed for SW, but that 400 point battles feel so un-epic, especially with the flotillas. Of course I can agree to whatever I want with other players, but for all the practical reasons 400 pts will remain the standard game for competition, and thats really just a skirmish now.

Bomber command centers exclusively for flotillas, I think thats just a bad design decision, doubly taking away from the warship aspect of the game.

I love seeing squadrons zipping everywhere in a battle. But I do wish I didn't spend so much of each match measuring out little tiny distance-1 rings to measure aura effects stacking on other aura effects. Wave 5 tries to keep a lid on how many of those it introduces, and that's enough for me for now. I think the designers are indeed getting better, and if we don't see those efforts we need to try harder.

Point 1: Most of the new abilities squadrons get appear to be active, rather than passive. As in, abilities that happen once, on the squad's activation, and don't just get added to a list of tedious force multipliers.

Point 2: Snipe lets you surgically remove annoying passive effects so they don't dominate the squadron matchup.

Point 3: Several abilities appear to improve squadron-on-squadron attacks, as a buff to fighter screens. Rebel squadrons with Swarm and Blount. Cienna Ree. Valen Rudor. Ten Numb. Zertik Strom. And, again, Snipe.

I'm not a big fan of how flotillas represent between 33-66% of a players activations. Squads, I'm fine with. Before you had to plan ahead to use squads, be it going with Rogues or going with carriers.

But, IMO, flotillas are too good with Squadrons and 134 points of squadrons are usually as good as 250 points of ships in terms of overall dmg (just throwing numbers around but you get my point).

The average regionals squad wing does 5.8 ship damage per-turn from 6 squadrons, and costs 91 points. That's roughly the same damage as an MC30 or Glad, well-equipped, and a little more expensive. Plus, it means that fleet is throwing more squad commands & fewer CF commands.

Previous regionals averaged about 5 squad stands. We don't have easily accessible data on points & composition, but this doesn't seem like a big change to me. The change from 3.6 to 4.1 activations is also about a 15% increase.

Question: What do you think the appropriate division of combat power/points spent should be between battleships, squadrons, and small ships? 33/33/33? 50/25/25? 75/10/15? something else?

I'm also on the boat of "I don't like squadrons, and constantly seeing 134 pts of squadrons makes me cringe", but deep down the real problem is with flotillas. I can go on and on about why flotillas are harmful to this game and what should change about them but I won't because no one cares.

With CC and wave 5 there are so many cool squadrons and cool heroes now.. that I actually want to make some squadron focused lists. Also it's going to be a legitimate strategy to start using ship attacks on flaking squadrons. Imagine an ISD 2 with gunnery teams, a gladiator class 2, and a raider class 1 with Impetuous, Kallus, Ord. Experts, and Flech. Torpedos. It's likely you'll get first since those pesky squadron players think they are safe taking second with all the new objectives. With all those blue dice and raider tricks you are actually very likely to completely annihilate their squadron wing, and if you add just couple squadrons to taste then it's all the more effective. Their ships won't even have enough damage to take down your Motti ISD.

I also think wave 5/CC provides as many squadron goodies as it does anti-squadron goodies, in the form of squadrons (irony) and that upgrade. You might have to waste 60-70 pts on a fighter wing, but if you play it right you'll be able to stave off someone who took 134 pts of a fighter wing.

I think a problem is how FFG underestimated the importance of number of activations. That blew the problem out of proportion.