So, with Entrapment Formation, is it possible to use the speed boost from entrapment on the determine course phase of Engine Techs?

If we follow precedence - the answer is "Sure, you can Change your Speed, but Engine Techs doesn't care about your Speed... its Speed 1"...

Changing your Speed means changing the Speed that is on your Dial...

So sure, you can be at Speed 1... use a Nav Dial during your usual Movement and go to Speed 2... Change Speed to 3 with Entrapment... Go to Engine Techs... And Change your Speed to 4 with Entrapment Formation.......... But Engine Techs is still a Speed 1 Maneuver.

Is that an actual answer? I don't know... Its impossible to work out a bunch of RAI and RAW with these things - double-murkied by the way things are written in the spoiler article... ::shakehead:: I don't know, to be honest...

But that above is how we follow Ship Speed Precedent... And Maintain G8s as a specific FAQ exception to the Precedent as set.

Perhaps it is intended to be able to have Speed 2 Engine Techs with said thing... That seems really good to me.

Yeah, I'm salivating a little at the possibility.

It just seems too ridiculous to be a thing...

Up until Entrapment Formation! There was no physical way that you could even attempt to do it - there was no non-bound-to-command way to execute a voluntary speed change for the Positive...

It just was not physically possible, so you never questioned if it was an eventuality...

...

But now there is. And it makes me consider wether it is intended, or an unintended side effect...

Even as a Rebel Player, I lean towards saying "No'... Because Effective Speed 4 Home One is just too dirty.

Haha, my favourite issue, another unintended side effect of the whole speed lack of clarity!

I concur with Drasnighta, can totally be argued either way.

Engine techs can still be more than speed 1 with the G8 faq worded as it is:

"This effect is resolved before the Determine Course step of that maneuver and reduces the ship’s temporary speed by 1 to a minimum of 0."

This doesn't say that it reduces the speed from 1 to 0. Also, the outcome of that sentence is that Engine techs uses a "temporary speed" which is affected by a card which affects "speed" (G8 "you can temporarily reduce its speed by 1"). Entrapment also changes "speed" by 1.

Of course, the likelihood that entrapment strictly means change your current speed (= dial) is much higher, mainly because that's what it means throughout the game when the change isn't specified as being temporary. And also because speed 2 ET is very, very good.

And then you still get to manipulate the dial during the ET maneuver, even if this particular maneuver isn't affected, because as we argued a thousand times over, ET has a determine course step .

We have to accept that G8s, themselves, are an exception to the normal rules - they are a ruling that has been provided in exception to all other speed based rulings, which makes them tricky to use as a precedent.

I mean, if that ruling was to be the precedent - then you would be doing Thruster Fissure Changes, Tractor Beams and Admiral Konstantine quite differently...

So in light of that being specifically ignored as a precedent - I would say, Can use. Changes your "Current Speed". Current Speed is on the Dial. No matter how many times you do it, its only changing the speed on your dial and Engine Techs is still Speed 1......

But its a cluster-malf.

I'm going with a clear cut no, you cannot use EF to boost your ET speed. ET says you make a speed 1 maneuver, while EF says you can change your speed by 1.

If you want, I could write a super long essay on how speed changes work, but short answer is when you change your speed, you change the speed dial, not a temporary speed, regardless of the source (Konstantine, Nav token/command). While ET is a clear cut speed 1 maneuver, not a temporary speed to make a manevuer, not that we have that anyway.

You can still use EF to change your dial during an ET move, since you change the speed during the Determine Course step.

I'm going with a clear cut no, you cannot use EF to boost your ET speed. ET says you make a speed 1 maneuver, while EF says you can change your speed by 1.

If you want, I could write a super long essay on how speed changes work, but short answer is when you change your speed, you change the speed dial, not a temporary speed, regardless of the source (Konstantine, Nav token/command). While ET is a clear cut speed 1 maneuver, not a temporary speed to make a manevuer, not that we have that anyway.

You can still use EF to change your dial during an ET move, since you change the speed during the Determine Course step.

You are wrong.

When you change your speed, you change the number of clicks you get to move during THAT MANEUVER. Its not for the next maneuver. Outside of activation maneuvers clearly revert back to their original speed after being performed, but you can still change the speed of the current maneuver performed during the ET maneuver.

If you are saying that changing speed just changes the dial, but not the current speed, then you would never be able to slow down during "this maneuver", you would only slow down for the next turns maneuver, and that is just plain wrong.

FAQ on doing a maneuver outside of a normal maneuver:

Q: When an effect instructs a ship to execute a maneuver outside of its usual Execute Maneuver step, what is that ship’s speed?

A: While executing that additional maneuver, the ship’s speed is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is resolved . The ship executes the maneuver by completing the Determine Course and Move Ship steps. The ship’s current speed is still tracked by its speed dial, and the ship does not count as having changed its speed.

From the rules:

Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw.

Bolding produced by me.

You can still change the speed of the maneuver during the determine course step, which you still perform with engine techs.

FAQ clarifies this; you can still click the joints in the usual manner, you just use the yaw value for the first joint at speed 1.

e ngine t echs

When the ship executes this maneuver, it can click the rst joint of the maneuver tool using its usual yaw value for the rst joint at speed 1.

Please show me where the rules on the card say to skip the determine course step, or change the rules in the rulebook by calling out " The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw. " ?

M : After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a 1-speed maneuver.

You perform a standard maneuver, pretending that you are starting the determine course step with a dial that looks like 1, THEN you move to the determine course step. Nowhere does it overwrite what goes on during the determine course step. You don't actually change the dial, and you don't take damage from that change of speed critical effect.

I'm going with a clear cut no, you cannot use EF to boost your ET speed. ET says you make a speed 1 maneuver, while EF says you can change your speed by 1.

If you want, I could write a super long essay on how speed changes work, but short answer is when you change your speed, you change the speed dial, not a temporary speed, regardless of the source (Konstantine, Nav token/command). While ET is a clear cut speed 1 maneuver, not a temporary speed to make a manevuer, not that we have that anyway.

You can still use EF to change your dial during an ET move, since you change the speed during the Determine Course step.

You are wrong.

When you change your speed, you change the number of clicks you get to move during THAT MANEUVER. Its not for the next maneuver. Outside of activation maneuvers clearly revert back to their original speed after being performed, but you can still change the speed of the current maneuver performed during the ET maneuver.

If you are saying that changing speed just changes the dial, but not the current speed, then you would never be able to slow down during "this maneuver", you would only slow down for the next turns maneuver, and that is just plain wrong.

FAQ on doing a maneuver outside of a normal maneuver:

Q: When an effect instructs a ship to execute a maneuver outside of its usual Execute Maneuver step, what is that ship’s speed?

A: While executing that additional maneuver, the ship’s speed is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is resolved . The ship executes the maneuver by completing the Determine Course and Move Ship steps. The ship’s current speed is still tracked by its speed dial, and the ship does not count as having changed its speed.

From the rules:

Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw.

Bolding produced by me.

You can still change the speed of the maneuver during the determine course step, which you still perform with engine techs.

FAQ clarifies this; you can still click the joints in the usual manner, you just use the yaw value for the first joint at speed 1.

e ngine t echs

When the ship executes this maneuver, it can click the rst joint of the maneuver tool using its usual yaw value for the rst joint at speed 1.

Please show me where the rules on the card say to skip the determine course step, or change the rules in the rulebook by calling out " The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw. " ?

M : After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a 1-speed maneuver.

You perform a standard maneuver, pretending that you are starting the determine course step with a dial that looks like 1, THEN you move to the determine course step. Nowhere does it overwrite what goes on during the determine course step. You don't actually change the dial, and you don't take damage from that change of speed critical effect.

Here is why you are wrong. I'm going to use numbers and just go down on the quotes you mentioned.

1. ET uses speed-1 manuever. EF refers to your speed, which is kept on the speed dial and does not refer to your temporary speed. I suppose you can call the ET maneuver a temporary speed since it is outside of your primary movement phase.

"A ship’s speed determines how far it must move each activation; the ship’s current speed is tracked on its speed dial."

2. This is irrelevant and actually works against you. Saying you need to use a navigate token or command reinforces you cannot speed up the ET move. EF is neither of those, it is an outside effect that changes your speed dial. Also, you cannot activate ET unless you use a nav command, and cannot use a nav command again in the same round since you would be doing the same command twice. Clearly against the rules.

Thus, you cannot change speed during the ET maneuver in the fashion you are suggesting.

3. You misquoted this. It actually says

"When the ship executes this maneuver, it can click the first joint of the maneuver tool using its usual yaw value for the first joint at speed 1."

You mistyped "frist" for "rst" and I assume you read it as "rest" and thought you can click the rest of the joints. Not so.

4. I have no idea what point you are trying to make. I never said you skipped any step for movement with an ET move. I actually said "You can still use EF to change your dial during an ET move, since you change the speed during the Determine Course step." and I was refering to changing the speed dial with EF during you ET move since that is still legal.

So no, I still do not think you can use EF to boost your ET move to a speed 2 maneuver. I can see the confusion with the G8vsET FAQ, but even then, that does not support your argument.

"When this effect is resolved on an enemy ship and that ship changes its speed dial during the Determine Course step, the ship’s speed is temporarily reduced by 1 from the current speed on its dial."

"This effect can be resolved on an enemy ship that is executing a maneuver from an effect such as Engine Techs. This effect is resolved before the Determine Course step of that maneuver and reduces the ship’s temporary speed by 1 to a minimum of 0."

So here we have an offical ruling from FFG stating ET is a temporary speed. "Temporary" is an important keyword in regards to executing a maneuver. On a normal maneuver, we see G8 temporarily changes the speed by 1 from the dial. Where as the ET maneuver has its own temporary speed, totally seperate from the speed dial. If EF said you can temporarily boost your speed by 1 during the determine course step, I would say you can increase your ET manuever by 1 speed since it uses similar language and same keywords as G8.

This is not the case. Ef says "At the start of the Ship Phase, you may discard this card or spend a Nav token. If you do, until the end of the round, each friendly ship may change its speed by 1 during its Determine Course Step."

No temporary speed change. It is as if the ship is spending a nav command to change speed so it changes the speed dial.

Lastily, EF says " each friendly ship may change its speed by 1 during its Determine Course Step." and I would make the case the "its" in red refers to a singular determine course step, and thus means the primary one. Not a secondary one created from ET.

So, with Entrapment Formation, is it possible to use the speed boost from entrapment on the determine course phase of Engine Techs?

No.

I'm going with a clear cut no, you cannot use EF to boost your ET speed. ET says you make a speed 1 maneuver, while EF says you can change your speed by 1.

If you want, I could write a super long essay on how speed changes work, but short answer is when you change your speed, you change the speed dial, not a temporary speed, regardless of the source (Konstantine, Nav token/command). While ET is a clear cut speed 1 maneuver, not a temporary speed to make a manevuer, not that we have that anyway.

You can still use EF to change your dial during an ET move, since you change the speed during the Determine Course step.

You are wrong.

When you change your speed, you change the number of clicks you get to move during THAT MANEUVER. Its not for the next maneuver. Outside of activation maneuvers clearly revert back to their original speed after being performed, but you can still change the speed of the current maneuver performed during the ET maneuver.

If you are saying that changing speed just changes the dial, but not the current speed, then you would never be able to slow down during "this maneuver", you would only slow down for the next turns maneuver, and that is just plain wrong.

FAQ on doing a maneuver outside of a normal maneuver:

Q: When an effect instructs a ship to execute a maneuver outside of its usual Execute Maneuver step, what is that ship’s speed?

A: While executing that additional maneuver, the ship’s speed is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is resolved . The ship executes the maneuver by completing the Determine Course and Move Ship steps. The ship’s current speed is still tracked by its speed dial, and the ship does not count as having changed its speed.

From the rules:

Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw.

Bolding produced by me.

You can still change the speed of the maneuver during the determine course step, which you still perform with engine techs.

FAQ clarifies this; you can still click the joints in the usual manner, you just use the yaw value for the first joint at speed 1.

e ngine t echs

When the ship executes this maneuver, it can click the rst joint of the maneuver tool using its usual yaw value for the rst joint at speed 1.

Please show me where the rules on the card say to skip the determine course step, or change the rules in the rulebook by calling out " The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw. " ?

M : After you execute a maneuver, you may exhaust this card to execute a 1-speed maneuver.

You perform a standard maneuver, pretending that you are starting the determine course step with a dial that looks like 1, THEN you move to the determine course step. Nowhere does it overwrite what goes on during the determine course step. You don't actually change the dial, and you don't take damage from that change of speed critical effect.

Here is why you are wrong. I'm going to use numbers and just go down on the quotes you mentioned.

1. ET uses speed-1 manuever. EF refers to your speed, which is kept on the speed dial and does not refer to your temporary speed. I suppose you can call the ET maneuver a temporary speed since it is outside of your primary movement phase.

"A ship’s speed determines how far it must move each activation; the ship’s current speed is tracked on its speed dial."

2. This is irrelevant and actually works against you. Saying you need to use a navigate token or command reinforces you cannot speed up the ET move. EF is neither of those, it is an outside effect that changes your speed dial. Also, you cannot activate ET unless you use a nav command, and cannot use a nav command again in the same round since you would be doing the same command twice. Clearly against the rules.

Thus, you cannot change speed during the ET maneuver in the fashion you are suggesting.

3. You misquoted this. It actually says

"When the ship executes this maneuver, it can click the first joint of the maneuver tool using its usual yaw value for the first joint at speed 1."

You mistyped "frist" for "rst" and I assume you read it as "rest" and thought you can click the rest of the joints. Not so.

rst is how it copied and pasted from the PDF... its specifies first.

4. I have no idea what point you are trying to make. I never said you skipped any step for movement with an ET move. I actually said "You can still use EF to change your dial during an ET move, since you change the speed during the Determine Course step." and I was refering to changing the speed dial with EF during you ET move since that is still legal.

So no, I still do not think you can use EF to boost your ET move to a speed 2 maneuver. I can see the confusion with the G8vsET FAQ, but even then, that does not support your argument.

"When this effect is resolved on an enemy ship and that ship changes its speed dial during the Determine Course step, the ship’s speed is temporarily reduced by 1 from the current speed on its dial."

"This effect can be resolved on an enemy ship that is executing a maneuver from an effect such as Engine Techs. This effect is resolved before the Determine Course step of that maneuver and reduces the ship’s temporary speed by 1 to a minimum of 0."

So here we have an offical ruling from FFG stating ET is a temporary speed. "Temporary" is an important keyword in regards to executing a maneuver. On a normal maneuver, we see G8 temporarily changes the speed by 1 from the dial. Where as the ET maneuver has its own temporary speed, totally seperate from the speed dial. If EF said you can temporarily boost your speed by 1 during the determine course step, I would say you can increase your ET manuever by 1 speed since it uses similar language and same keywords as G8.

This is not the case. Ef says "At the start of the Ship Phase, you may discard this card or spend a Nav token. If you do, until the end of the round, each friendly ship may change its speed by 1 during its Determine Course Step."

No temporary speed change. It is as if the ship is spending a nav command to change speed so it changes the speed dial.

So, EF doesn't change the temporary speed, so If i'm going speed 2, don't have engine techs or a nav token, and I reduce my speed using EF... I set the dial to speed one, then move my ship two clicks along the maneuver template?

Lastily, EF says " each friendly ship may change its speed by 1 during its Determine Course Step." and I would make the case the "its" in red refers to a singular determine course step, and thus means the primary one. Not a secondary one created from ET.

I believe "its" refers to the friendly ship...

responses in red

basically, this has never come up before since you can't do two nav orders in one turn, so you can't do this with an extra nav token. But this is separate from a nav token, it changes both your speed and your temporary speed.

The way speed changes work in this game:

I start my maneuver at speed 2.

I change my speed to speed 3. How many notches on the maneuver template do I move? Your response is saying I should only move 2 notches since we don't change "temporary" speed, but I'm saying you should move 3 notches. Reading the L2P rulebook, I can see the confusion.

I guess I should just confirm with the TO how they handle movement before we play: everywhere I've played (only in america, but at gencon, dallas, san antonio, and houston) we've done maneuvers this way. Maybe they do it differently wherever you are from.

What are you talking about? If you are going speed 2, and change your speed with EF or a nav command, you change your speed dial and follow the speed chart to figure out your yaw.

So if you start at 2, use EF and nav command to go up to speed 4, you move at speed 4, not speed 2.

What are you talking about? If you are going speed 2, and change your speed with EF or a nav command, you change your speed dial and follow the speed chart to figure out your yaw.

So if you start at 2, use EF and nav command to go up to speed 4, you move at speed 4, not speed 2.

except you just said it changes your speed dial, not your temporary speed. you started at speed 2, and your temporary speed doesn't change, ergo, you move 2 notches and set the dial to 4.

What are you talking about? If you are going speed 2, and change your speed with EF or a nav command, you change your speed dial and follow the speed chart to figure out your yaw.

So if you start at 2, use EF and nav command to go up to speed 4, you move at speed 4, not speed 2.

except you just said it changes your speed dial, not your temporary speed. you started at speed 2, and your temporary speed doesn't change, ergo, you move 2 notches and set the dial to 4.

This is not how movement works. Your speed dial means how many joints you can move along the maneuver tool. Temporary speed is a result of G8 or ET. Neither one actually alters the speed dial.

So let's say you move speed 3. You get hit with G8. Your temporary speed is now 2. You do not change your speed dial. But you decide to use a nav token to boost up to speed 4 on your dial. Your new temporary speed is 3.

An ET maneuver is a speed-1 maneuver, and the FAQ designates secondary maneuvers as a maneuver at a temporary speed. This is why G8 can target an ET move, and why EF will not alter the temporary speed of an ET move.

Whenever you change your speed that does not designate it as a temporary change, you change the speed dial to reflect that. EF changes your speed, and thus your speed dial.

So if you are going speed 1, triggered EF and have a nav command, you can use EF to go to speed 2, and the Nav to go to speed 3 and get the extra yaw at that speed. There is no temporary speed involved with this example.

If you could change the speed of ET that would necessarily apply that rule to Quantum Storm as well.

What are you talking about? If you are going speed 2, and change your speed with EF or a nav command, you change your speed dial and follow the speed chart to figure out your yaw.

So if you start at 2, use EF and nav command to go up to speed 4, you move at speed 4, not speed 2.

except you just said it changes your speed dial, not your temporary speed. you started at speed 2, and your temporary speed doesn't change, ergo, you move 2 notches and set the dial to 4.

This is not how movement works. Your speed dial means how many joints you can move along the maneuver tool. Temporary speed is a result of G8 or ET. Neither one actually alters the speed dial.

So let's say you move speed 3. You get hit with G8. Your temporary speed is now 2. You do not change your speed dial. But you decide to use a nav token to boost up to speed 4 on your dial. Your new temporary speed is 3.

An ET maneuver is a speed-1 maneuver, and the FAQ designates secondary maneuvers as a maneuver at a temporary speed. This is why G8 can target an ET move, and why EF will not alter the temporary speed of an ET move.

Whenever you change your speed that does not designate it as a temporary change, you change the speed dial to reflect that. EF changes your speed, and thus your speed dial.

So if you are going speed 1, triggered EF and have a nav command, you can use EF to go to speed 2, and the Nav to go to speed 3 and get the extra yaw at that speed. There is no temporary speed involved with this example.

Except you just showed that your temporary speed is changed in your first example! If the temporary speed is NOT CHANGED, you get hit with G8 in that example and you are stuck at 2 notches. If you go 3 notches, your temporary speed was CLEARLY CHANGED.

Read what you are saying!

From your example at speed 1 with EF and a nave command, I would say that you go 3 notches, but if you don't change the temporary speed of the maneuver (which is what we are using as terminology for the number of notches you move, despite the fact that those are words that don't show up outside of G-8...) you only go one notch.

FAQ:

Q: When an effect instructs a ship to execute a maneuver outside of its usual Execute Maneuver step, what is that ship’s speed?

you are reading this as:

... the ship's temporary speed is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is resolved...

while I am reading this as:

... the ship's speed is temporarily set to the speed indicated by the effect that is resolved...

Notice the lack of temporary speed in my interpretation but how you are inserting a word that CLEARLY isn't there?

If you could change the speed of ET that would necessarily apply that rule to Quantum Storm as well.

This applies here too. We haven't been able to quantum storm distance 2 because it also requires a nav (and you can't nav more than once in a turn). This lets Quantum Storm go 2 since the speed bonus is outside of a nav token.

Basically, if G-8 is not on the table, there is no such thing as temporary speed as a rule term, everything is just "speed", some of which might not last very long.

I get what you are getting at now. It was a journey and a half, but I understand.

You make a good point turning my argument on itself.

I still don't think EF would allow your ET to be boosted to speed 2.

Let me think on it and I'll respond in a bit. Maybe after work when I can sit down and reread the rules.

Good catch though.

I think it can be used on ET. I don't like it (speed 4 MC80's, speed 5 Liberties, fantastic...), and I don't think the rules are completely clear on it either way, but I think it works.

Great debate!

Ok, so if we consider my argument to be 100% correct and supported by the RRG and FAQ, then yes, using EF during an ET maneuver would allow you to have a speed 2 ET move because it follows the same interation as G8 vs normal maneuver.

Here is the order for a ship at speed 1:

Reveal a Nav Command

Spend Nav Command during the Determine Course Step

-Increase to speed 2

-Execute speed 2 maneuver

Trigger ET

Use EF during the Determine Course Step

-Increase speed dial to speed 3, which also increases your temproary speed to speed 2

-Execute speed 2 maneuver

It's weird, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't break any rules.

Let me know if I made a mistake.

Ok, so if we consider my argument to be 100% correct and supported by the RRG and FAQ, then yes, using EF during an ET maneuver would allow you to have a speed 2 ET move because it follows the same interation as G8 vs normal maneuver.

Here is the order for a ship at speed 1:

Reveal a Nav Command

Spend Nav Command during the Determine Course Step

-Increase to speed 2

-Execute speed 2 maneuver

Trigger ET

Use EF during the Determine Course Step

-Increase speed dial to speed 3, which also increases your temproary speed to speed 2

-Execute speed 2 maneuver

It's weird, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't break any rules.

Let me know if I made a mistake.

I think so?

I think this is a question for an FAQ (Already sent an e-mail to JKniffen)... but it sounds like its RaW, phoenix home as RaI (its increasing speed during a maneuver), and maybe RaI with Engine Techs (or maybe they should have said engine techs and quantum storm worded like "perform a speed 1 maneuver, you cannot modify your speed during the determine course step of this maneuver")

I think this is a question for an FAQ (Already sent an e-mail to JKniffen)...

I hope you sent it to the Rules Link, and not to him Directly.

Because he doesn't answer Rules for Armada anymore.

I don't think EF is intended to boost ET. Speed 4 pickles and speed 5 Demo and Libertys are crazy. Speed 6 CR90s would be neat though. Cuz who doesn't like the Rieekan ramming CR90+ET nonsense. Now they get to you quicker!

But we can only speculate at the intent.

I don't think EF is intended to boost ET. Speed 4 pickles and speed 5 Demo and Libertys are crazy. Speed 6 CR90s would be neat though. Cuz who doesn't like the Rieekan ramming CR90+ET nonsense. Now they get to you quicker!

But we can only speculate at the intent.

Conversely, its intended to let the phoenix home keep up with liberties, guppies, and CR90s.

Demo can't do this since its Imperial, and they don't have a speed bonus outside of Navigation (and you can't activate ET without using your one and only navigation order for the activation)