My theory is that, at the time that rule was written in the RRG, it simply did not occur to the designers that your squadron might be engaged and still able to attack another squadron that it's not engaged with. This can arise due to obstruction, or special abilities such as Snipe.

(i). The rule could have been simply worded as "if you are engaged, you cannot attack a ship", except because "cannot" is absolute and not subject to exceptions (I know, I know: only when it appears on a card... but arguments would have happened anyway). Or perhaps "if you are engaged, you can only attack squadrons".

(ii). Alternatively, when FFG were confronted with the situation addressed in the FAQ, they could've chosen to rule it thusly: "if you are engaged, you must attack a squadron you are engaged with" (i.e. without the "rather than a ship" qualifier limiting its context). But they did not, and instead explicitly stated that (i) was the intended reading of the rule.

On 16/12/2016 at 5:41 AM, Drasnighta said:

I don't know what you're saying here....

The Distance Bars on the Ruler are not inclusive of each other...

Distance 2 is not from the Base of the Ruler to the line between 2 and 3...

Distance 2 is from the LIne that separates 1 and 2, and 2 and 3...

If you can snipe at *any* distance up to Distance 2... Then Snipe Range would be given as Distance 1-2... With a Minimum and a Maximum...

...

The only point of contention here, is basically - IF you have ANY portion of you at Distance 2, are you at Distance 2? Or does ONLY the Distance you Measure - The Closest Point to Closest Point - count for that Measurement....

Effectively:

How I understand it:

If the Closest Part of the Enemy Base is between the Base of the Ruler up to (and including) the Separating Line between 1 and 2... Then you are at Distance 1... And you cannot Snipe, because the Rule does not say you can Snipe at Distance 1... Only at Distance 2.

If the closest part of the enemy base is anywhere in the '2' section, up to and including the LIne that Separates 2 and 3.... You are at Distance 2 and may Snipe....

...

If you were allowed to measure to the back of a base to ensure a Range 2 shot... Then you will get situations where the worst can be argued - That someone whose closest portion is at Distance 2, but the Furthest portion is in the Distance 3 Band, CANNOT BE SHOT AT BECAUSE THEY WILL CLAIM THEY ARE "AT" DISTANCE 3................

The only way the rule can be applied, and satisfy *ALL* Circumstances, is to ONLY COUNT THE CLOSEST POINT in your Measurement.

If your Closest Point is within Distance 1... you are within Distance 1, and cannot snipe that target... You can shoot it normally, but it'll be able to counter you back...

If your Closest point to your Chosen Target is within Distance 2... Then you may Snipe that Target...

...

Range Measurements (And we're talking about a Range Measurement for an Attack here)... Is measured To, And From, the Closest Points of Squadrons.

To attempt to apply any other measure of ruling is outside of the scope of the rules as presented.

...

That's my view, anyway.

This would lead to an reverse argument during a game...

In the Wave 1-4 days the defending player wanted the attacking sqd. to be outside range 1 to avoid getting shot at and nitpick that it is outside distance 1.

Now the the defending player wants the attacking sqd. to be at range 1 to avoid getting sniped at.

Does anyone see the irony of it?

For practical purposes I would say let Snipe be allowed from base contact to at distance 2.

It would save alot of gaming time instead of having to remove other sqds out of the way, when people are nitpicking if a E-wing is at distance 1 or not of a sqd it is attacking and the only way to verify it is to bring the tool up close and measure the distance.

Anyhow thats my 2 cent on the subject.

On 1/10/2017 at 10:46 AM, DiabloAzul said:

My theory is that, at the time that rule was written in the RRG, it simply did not occur to the designers that your squadron might be engaged and still able to attack another squadron that it's not engaged with. This can arise due to obstruction, or special abilities such as Snipe.

I'm not sure what you mean.. obstruction has been there since the beginning, it's always been possible.. or do you mean that when they wrote the rule, they hadn't yet made the obstruction rule, and then didn't go back and update previous rules to work with it?

42 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

For practical purposes I would say let Snipe be allowed from base contact to at distance 2.

It would save alot of gaming time instead of having to remove other sqds out of the way, when people are nitpicking if a E-wing is at distance 1 or not of a sqd it is attacking and the only way to verify it is to bring the tool up close and measure the distance.

Anyhow thats my 2 cent on the subject.

I don't think snipe is designed to avoid counter at short range. The reason you don't get counter is that the counter ships just don't have the range to attack back at sniping squads. So they made snipe only work at range 2.

12 hours ago, Kiwi Rat said:

For practical purposes I would say let Snipe be allowed from base contact to at distance 2.

It would save alot of gaming time instead of having to remove other sqds out of the way, when people are nitpicking if a E-wing is at distance 1 or not of a sqd it is attacking and the only way to verify it is to bring the tool up close and measure the distance.

Anyhow thats my 2 cent on the subject.

This is not what Snipe says though. Don't change the text of the card because you don't want to go through the motions of following the rules. It says you can Snipe at distance 2 and you measure the 2 closest points. So if a tiny sliver is on the range 1 band, you are not at range 2. You are at range 1, and thus cannot Snipe.

And if you still feel that is wrong, can you explain how Evades work?

12 hours ago, homedrone said:

I'm not sure what you mean.. obstruction has been there since the beginning, it's always been possible.. or do you mean that when they wrote the rule, they hadn't yet made the obstruction rule, and then didn't go back and update previous rules to work with it?

I meant that when the designers wrote that one line of the RRG, what they had in mind was ships (this was explicitly mentioned to me by FFG via email). I suspect that it just didn't occur to them at that point that the exact wording they used in this rule would be relied upon by players to resolve interactions between squadrons , which weren't intended to be covered by it.

5 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

This is not what Snipe says though. Don't change the text of the card because you don't want to go through the motions of following the rules. It says you can Snipe at distance 2 and you measure the 2 closest points. So if a tiny sliver is on the range 1 band, you are not at range 2. You are at range 1, and thus cannot Snipe.

And if you still feel that is wrong, can you explain how Evades work?

Reading the Rules Ref. (long time since I have) I must admittedly agree that one can't snipe anything at distance 1, due to the Minimum-Maximum rule under Range and Distance rules.

But you would still have the tiresome duty of temporarly removing gaming pieces every time there is disagreement between two players if the Sniper is at distance 1 or not.

Player A says: I want to snipe your Tie Bomber.

Player B says: You cant its at distance 1

Player A says: Are you sure?

Player A gently removes one or more squadrons that is physically in the way of the distance 1 measure tool and discovers, that the Tie Bomber is just outside the distance 1 band (Or in a alternate reallity the Tie Bomber is just by a sliver, at distance 1)

Player A puts back the one or more squadrons, to the location they where removed from.

My point with the above scenario is that people better get used to it, that some game time might be used on verifying, if Snipe can be used or not.

And it might get really tiresome when it occurs many times during a game, where it is hard to see at first glance if two squads is at distance 1 or not.

I do hope though, that my above fears wont be such a big problem, as my mind is making it to be

Just now, Kiwi Rat said:

do hope though, that my above fears wont be such a big problem, as my mind is making it to be

Honestly? Its no different than, basically, any other measurement in the game, essentially. Its the same as measuring Intel from Bombers. Who is in and who is out. Its the same as measuring distance for Jan, or Dengar...

Its not really any different than measure for any attack in the game for Squadrons... Is it? Just on one, you're looking at one side of the Line, and for Snipe, the other.... That jus thappens to be the distance 1 line...

Its that that hard, is it?

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Honestly? Its no different than, basically, any other measurement in the game, essentially. Its the same as measuring Intel from Bombers. Who is in and who is out. Its the same as measuring distance for Jan, or Dengar...

Its not really any different than measure for any attack in the game for Squadrons... Is it? Just on one, you're looking at one side of the Line, and for Snipe, the other.... That jus thappens to be the distance 1 line...

Its that that hard, is it?

You are right Dras, I think I have a to hyper active imagination.

Its nice that someone like you give me a positive shake back to reality.

Did Dras always use bold text, and I just didn't notice because of the gray background?

2 hours ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Did Dras always use bold text, and I just didn't notice because of the gray background?

Dras has always been a fan of emphasis through things like bold and italics

Sorry for being snarky, but I can't believe the arguments are still ongoing? I kind of thought snipe was one of the lesser complicated rules, really.