Ben uses Snipe at range 3 against ships while engaged with X-Wings.

With his default anti-squadron armament.

To sum up:

0. Snipe works only against squads (obviously)

1. Snipe works only at distance 2

2. A squadron can't be at both distance 1 and 2 at the same time, since you measure closest to closest (and the dividing line counts as the closer distance)

3. If you're engaged with a squadron you must shoot at engaged squadrons (if possible)

4. From 3 it follows that if you're engaged with a squadron you can't snipe out of that engagement

Interactions:

Counter - Snipe ignores counter.

Escort - Snipe doesn't change how Escort applies.

Howl - Howl's bonus applies to Snipe (universal or near universal consensus)

FC - Flight Controllers may/may not apply to Snipe (I'm firmly in the does apply camp, but agreement isn't universal)

Did I forget anything?

Your number 3. is not backed up by any rules in my opinion. Engagement does not force you (as a squadron) to shoot at enemy squadrons you are engaged with. You are free to shoot other squadrons with which you are not engaged, the restriction that you have to shoot at squadrons engaging you only applies if you target ships.

Yes but at range 1.

Please where does it state this limitation? The relevant part is p. 6 engagement , as it was brought up already. Engagement hinders you to shoot ships if you are engaged, it does not hinder you to attack other squadrons with which you are not engaged for any reason. Having an attack with range 2 (snipe) does not alter the engagement wording, snipe itself does not state any limitations, so how do you draw the conclusion that engagement is somehow extended in its meaning for squadrons with snipe?

FAQ

Kindly return to the use of phrases and sentences.

In non-functional linguistics, a sentence is a textual unit consisting of words that are grammatically linked. In functional linguistics, a sentence is a unit of written texts delimited by graphological features such as upper case letters and markers such as periods, question marks, and exclamation marks. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence

Thanks.

No

When did they Errata page 6 of the rules?
Under engagement:
When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

You have to shoot at an engaged squadron. Since engagement is to range one and snipe is at range two you can't snipe while engaged.

When did they Errata page 6 of the rules?

Under engagement:

When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

You have to shoot at an engaged squadron. Since engagement is to range one and snipe is at range two you can't snipe while engaged.

They didn't. The key to your argument is the idea that the first portion is the important bit - the "must attack an engaged squadron." The other side looks at the sentence and says that the important bit is "rather than an enemy ship." That is - you cannot shoot at a ship if you are engaged, but you can shoot at a squadron you are not engaged with, even if you are engaged with other squadrons. (Unless the squadron you are engaged with has Escort, of course)

For me, the second position appears to be correct. The FAQ makes it clear that you are not limited to shooting at engaged squadrons when you attack with a squadron - non-engaged squadrons are perfectly legal targets. Specifically, the FAQ lets you shoot at an obstructed squadron (and obstructed squadrons are not engaged, in any sense of the word) even if you are engaged with other squadrons. In addition, an FFG email clarification about rules explicitly says that the exact phrase from the rulebook that you quote is meant to apply only when squadrons are attacking ships, and not when they are attacking other squadrons.

Given the precedent (the ruling about attacking non-engaged squadrons) and the clarifications (about what that rule was intended to cover), I feel confident in asserting that a squadron with Snipe may either:

1 - attack a squadron (either engaged or unengaged) at range 1 with their battery armament

or

2 - attack a squadron at range 2 with their Snipe armament

and that the only time it may not pick (2) is when it is engaged with a squadron that has Escort. I am not sure whether a squadron with Snipe could snipe another Escort squadron if it's engaged with an Escort, but my intuition says that it can.

Well, that makes sense, if you can shoot at any squadron why would you be prevented from using snipe?

Well, that makes sense, if you can shoot at any squadron why would you be prevented from using snipe?

That is the entire argument. If I can shoot any squad because we are at range 1, even if there is engagement, why can't I snipe something at range 2?

So far no one has been able to produce anything that says otherwise, and if they do, they are cherry picking it.

As has been pointed out before, FFG explicitly answered in an email that the purpose of the rule in question was simply to protect ships, and that an engaged squadron is free to attack any valid squadron target.

You know, I hadn't read that before. But between that, the RAW and the FAQ ruling that specifically allows shooting at a squadron target you are not engaged with despite beinng engaged by a different squadron, I feel like its pretty clear you can snipe out from engagement. In fairness though, I thought the rules were pretty clear before this thread was posted so confirmational bias may be at work.

From the FAQ:

Q: If a squadron is at distance 1 of two enemy squadrons, one that it is engaged with and one that it is not engaged with because it is separated by an obstacle, does the original squadron have to attack the engaged squadron?

A: No. A squadron can attack another squadron at distance 1 regardless of whether it is technically engaged with that squadron.

While Snipe didn't exist when this FAQ answer was given - it is still an official answer. Until they change it, the limitation is distance 1 for shooting non-engaged squadrons.

That is an overinterpretation at its finest. The Question explicitly asked for a scenario at Distance 1, therefore the Answer replied with a ruling that applies at distance 1. The person asking the question was depicting a specific scenario (two squadrons being valid targets, distance 1, one squadron not being engaged) that was current state of abilities by that time! There is no indication that this ruling, which was done before snipe or other abilities that allow attacks at greater distances have been a thing, would somehow turn 180° for squadrons being at greater distances and should somehow magically transform into a negation. At best, it says nothing about distances above 1 and leaves both interpretations on the table for a subsequent FAQ.

From the FAQ:

Q: If a squadron is at distance 1 of two enemy squadrons, one that it is engaged with and one that it is not engaged with because it is separated by an obstacle, does the original squadron have to attack the engaged squadron?

A: No. A squadron can attack another squadron at distance 1 regardless of whether it is technically engaged with that squadron.

While Snipe didn't exist when this FAQ answer was given - it is still an official answer. Until they change it, the limitation is distance 1 for shooting non-engaged squadrons.

That is an overinterpretation at its finest. The Question explicitly asked for a scenario at Distance 1, therefore the Answer replied with a ruling that applies at distance 1. The person asking the question was depicting a specific scenario (two squadrons being valid targets, distance 1, one squadron not being engaged) that was current state of abilities by that time! There is no indication that this ruling, which was done before snipe or other abilities that allow attacks at greater distances have been a thing, would somehow turn 180° for squadrons being at greater distances and should somehow magically transform into a negation. At best, it says nothing about distances above 1 and leaves both interpretations on the table for a subsequent FAQ.

Wrong

From the FAQ:

Q: If a squadron is at distance 1 of two enemy squadrons, one that it is engaged with and one that it is not engaged with because it is separated by an obstacle, does the original squadron have to attack the engaged squadron?

A: No. A squadron can attack another squadron at distance 1 regardless of whether it is technically engaged with that squadron.

While Snipe didn't exist when this FAQ answer was given - it is still an official answer. Until they change it, the limitation is distance 1 for shooting non-engaged squadrons.

That is an overinterpretation at its finest. The Question explicitly asked for a scenario at Distance 1, therefore the Answer replied with a ruling that applies at distance 1. The person asking the question was depicting a specific scenario (two squadrons being valid targets, distance 1, one squadron not being engaged) that was current state of abilities by that time! There is no indication that this ruling, which was done before snipe or other abilities that allow attacks at greater distances have been a thing, would somehow turn 180° for squadrons being at greater distances and should somehow magically transform into a negation. At best, it says nothing about distances above 1 and leaves both interpretations on the table for a subsequent FAQ.

Wrong

Lol. No.

At best, it says nothing about distances above 1 and leaves both interpretations on the table for a subsequent FAQ.

I don't think it's even open to interpretation. Look at the text for Heavy (which is printed on cards that came in the same wave as Snipe).

"Heavy, (You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving)"

Does Heavy allow squadrons to attack ships but NOT Snipe at D2?

AFAIC, no FAQ is needed. You cannot make the case that "attack ships" is secrete code language for "attack any target outside of Distance 1"

RAW of engagement rules just talk about ships so it isn't apply to snipe.

RAW of the FAQ just talk about distance 1 and obstruction so it isn't apply to snipe.

Anyway, as Diablo said, they answered and ¡surprise! They give us the RAI of the engagement rule. It only apply to ships, not to squadrons. Obstruction is just an example (actually the only one we had) of being at shoot range but not engaged. Obstruction is an accidental issue here but I could concede you this point. Anyway:

When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

This is written and intended to only apply when an engaged squadron is attacking to a ship.

Actually the FAQ didn't say anything that is not covered by the rules. It only answered a frequently asked question. In fact:

If line of sight between two squadrons is obstructed, Those squadrons are not engaged even if at distance 1 of each other, though they can still attack each other.

And this above come from the RRG not the FAQ.

There is nothing in the RRG that disallow me to shoot an squadron when I am engaged and there is no escorts. Wait! There is. The target must be at range and snipe give me range 2 under specific conditions. What conditions? The target must be at distance 2, I must attack with the anti-squadron given by the snipe value, I can't be countered.

We have RAW and RAI. Of course they could change their minds, fix some unbalance if there was and resolve this other way but I think we have enough at this moment to find an agreement. Anyway, I will play this way until a new FAQ saw the light. You can do whatever you want unless Ben say other thing

I take it as you can only snipe from 1.01 to range 2.

To sum up:

0. Snipe works only against squads (obviously)

1. Snipe works only at distance 2

2. A squadron can't be at both distance 1 and 2 at the same time, since you measure closest to closest (and the dividing line counts as the closer distance)

3. If you're engaged with a squadron you must shoot at engaged squadrons (if possible)

4. From 3 it follows that if you're engaged with a squadron you can't snipe out of that engagement

Interactions:

Counter - Snipe ignores counter.

Escort - Snipe doesn't change how Escort applies.

Howl - Howl's bonus applies to Snipe (universal or near universal consensus)

FC - Flight Controllers may/may not apply to Snipe (I'm firmly in the does apply camp, but agreement isn't universal)

Did I forget anything?

Yep. You forget "...rather than an enemy ship" in 3. Maybe for you is nothing but for some (me included) it means that the part where you can't snipe to a squadron when you are engaged with another squadron is not as clear as you said. If the engaged squadron has escort there is no problem but if it hasn't there is. This is the question about this thread full almost 5 pages.

the RR is pretty clear, if you read everything in the Engagement section it is all about "distance 1" forget distance 2 and snipe Jesus Christ LOL... , nothing in the RR or FAQ EVER mention distance 2. so until a FAQ is out we have to abide by distance 1 engagement, meaning a squadron must attack engaged squadrons.

When did they Errata page 6 of the rules?

Under engagement:

When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

You have to shoot at an engaged squadron. Since engagement is to range one and snipe is at range two you can't snipe while engaged.

exactly , spot on,

When did they Errata page 6 of the rules?

Under engagement:

When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

You have to shoot at an engaged squadron. Since engagement is to range one and snipe is at range two you can't snipe while engaged.

They didn't. The key to your argument is the idea that the first portion is the important bit - the "must attack an engaged squadron." The other side looks at the sentence and says that the important bit is "rather than an enemy ship." That is - you cannot shoot at a ship if you are engaged, but you can shoot at a squadron you are not engaged with, even if you are engaged with other squadrons. (Unless the squadron you are engaged with has Escort, of course)

For me, the second position appears to be correct. The FAQ makes it clear that you are not limited to shooting at engaged squadrons when you attack with a squadron - non-engaged squadrons are perfectly legal targets. Specifically, the FAQ lets you shoot at an obstructed squadron (and obstructed squadrons are not engaged, in any sense of the word) even if you are engaged with other squadrons. In addition, an FFG email clarification about rules explicitly says that the exact phrase from the rulebook that you quote is meant to apply only when squadrons are attacking ships, and not when they are attacking other squadrons.

Given the precedent (the ruling about attacking non-engaged squadrons) and the clarifications (about what that rule was intended to cover), I feel confident in asserting that a squadron with Snipe may either:

1 - attack a squadron (either engaged or unengaged) at range 1 with their battery armament

or

2 - attack a squadron at range 2 with their Snipe armament

and that the only time it may not pick (2) is when it is engaged with a squadron that has Escort. I am not sure whether a squadron with Snipe could snipe another Escort squadron if it's engaged with an Escort, but my intuition says that it can.

dude, you have to read the entire "engagement" section as a whole. if you are engaged (distance 1) with a squadron you must attack that squadron, they really need to FAQ this quick. this is getting out of hand.

From the FAQ:

Q: If a squadron is at distance 1 of two enemy squadrons, one that it is engaged with and one that it is not engaged with because it is separated by an obstacle, does the original squadron have to attack the engaged squadron?

A: No. A squadron can attack another squadron at distance 1 regardless of whether it is technically engaged with that squadron.

While Snipe didn't exist when this FAQ answer was given - it is still an official answer. Until they change it, the limitation is distance 1 for shooting non-engaged squadrons.

That is an overinterpretation at its finest. The Question explicitly asked for a scenario at Distance 1, therefore the Answer replied with a ruling that applies at distance 1. The person asking the question was depicting a specific scenario (two squadrons being valid targets, distance 1, one squadron not being engaged) that was current state of abilities by that time! There is no indication that this ruling, which was done before snipe or other abilities that allow attacks at greater distances have been a thing, would somehow turn 180° for squadrons being at greater distances and should somehow magically transform into a negation. At best, it says nothing about distances above 1 and leaves both interpretations on the table for a subsequent FAQ.

indeed it does, reason we need FAQ

When did they Errata page 6 of the rules?

Under engagement:

When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

You have to shoot at an engaged squadron. Since engagement is to range one and snipe is at range two you can't snipe while engaged.

They didn't. The key to your argument is the idea that the first portion is the important bit - the "must attack an engaged squadron." The other side looks at the sentence and says that the important bit is "rather than an enemy ship." That is - you cannot shoot at a ship if you are engaged, but you can shoot at a squadron you are not engaged with, even if you are engaged with other squadrons. (Unless the squadron you are engaged with has Escort, of course)

For me, the second position appears to be correct. The FAQ makes it clear that you are not limited to shooting at engaged squadrons when you attack with a squadron - non-engaged squadrons are perfectly legal targets. Specifically, the FAQ lets you shoot at an obstructed squadron (and obstructed squadrons are not engaged, in any sense of the word) even if you are engaged with other squadrons. In addition, an FFG email clarification about rules explicitly says that the exact phrase from the rulebook that you quote is meant to apply only when squadrons are attacking ships, and not when they are attacking other squadrons.

Given the precedent (the ruling about attacking non-engaged squadrons) and the clarifications (about what that rule was intended to cover), I feel confident in asserting that a squadron with Snipe may either:

1 - attack a squadron (either engaged or unengaged) at range 1 with their battery armament

or

2 - attack a squadron at range 2 with their Snipe armament

and that the only time it may not pick (2) is when it is engaged with a squadron that has Escort. I am not sure whether a squadron with Snipe could snipe another Escort squadron if it's engaged with an Escort, but my intuition says that it can.

dude, you have to read the entire "engagement" section as a whole. if you are engaged (distance 1) with a squadron you must attack that squadron, they really need to FAQ this quick. this is getting out of hand.

No need to be insulting.

I have read the entire engagement section. Respectfully, it's you that's ignoring pieces of it.

But I've said my piece, and don't see any value in letting a discussion devolve into an argument. I'm confident in my answer, using existing rukes. Once they FAQ it, that will be the tournament-legal interpretation. Until then, this is the only way I see for the rules and the existing FAQ to interact with each other.

To sum up:

0. Snipe works only against squads (obviously)

1. Snipe works only at distance 2

2. A squadron can't be at both distance 1 and 2 at the same time, since you measure closest to closest (and the dividing line counts as the closer distance)

3. If you're engaged with a squadron you must shoot at engaged squadrons (if possible)

4. From 3 it follows that if you're engaged with a squadron you can't snipe out of that engagement

Interactions:

Counter - Snipe ignores counter.

Escort - Snipe doesn't change how Escort applies.

Howl - Howl's bonus applies to Snipe (universal or near universal consensus)

FC - Flight Controllers may/may not apply to Snipe (I'm firmly in the does apply camp, but agreement isn't universal)

Did I forget anything?

Yep. You forget "...rather than an enemy ship" in 3. Maybe for you is nothing but for some (me included) it means that the part where you can't snipe to a squadron when you are engaged with another squadron is not as clear as you said. If the engaged squadron has escort there is no problem but if it hasn't there is. This is the question about this thread full almost 5 pages.

the RR is pretty clear, if you read everything in the Engagement section it is all about "distance 1" forget distance 2 and snipe Jesus Christ LOL... , nothing in the RR or FAQ EVER mention distance 2. so until a FAQ is out we have to abide by distance 1 engagement, meaning a squadron must attack engaged squadrons.

The RRG doesn't talk about distance 3 or 4. Does it means that when we had a new rule that worked over those distance we can't do anything about that? We have Rhymer. Rhymer give us medium range when attacking range ship. The engagement rule doesn't say a word about medium range. As the ship I shooting is about medium ranged I won't attack the engagement engaged squadron. Of course he squadron is at distance 1 but the ship doesn't. Could I shot the ship? No cause Rhymer just change 1 thing: the range of the attack. Snipe do he same. It doesn't change the engagement rule so we apply it. I can't shoot a squadron without escorts if I am engaged with one, I cant move, I can't shoot ships if I am engaged but I can shoot other squadrons as long as there is nothing in the rules or the FAQ that said the contrary.

Maybe we need a FAQ. We will probably have it as it is an interest in question to clarify but we don't need it in order to allow us to shoot we will need it in order to disallow as, per rules, we can do it right now.

Still there is no clear ruling that you get to snipe at distance 2 if engaged at distance 1 . People that disagree with me are holding on to single lines from the RR and FAQ . If u honestly read and take the whole RR page 6 engagement section it is clear u must attack engaged squads (not talking about obstruction here to keep it simple) go back and read my earlier posts and examples cited

I read the entire section. Many times. In two languages.

Engagement

While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy

squadrons.

• An engaged squadron cannot move.

• When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

• A squadron does not engage ships or friendly squadrons.

• If line of sight between two squadrons is obstructed, Those squadrons are not engaged even if at distance 1 of each other, though they can still attack each other.

• A squadron is no longer engaged if the last squadron engaged with it is destroyed.

• Squadrons do not engage other squadrons while moving even if a portion of the range ruler is at distance 1 of an

enemy squadron. Only the starting and final positions matter for engagement.

Please, point us what part we are not quoting and you think we must consider in this situation.

Just had a game where Saber Squadron was engaged by an A-Wing but wanted to snipe a 1HP X-Wing that was outside of Range 1. If that is the confusion, I just don't get it. The obvious choices were to either shoot the A-Wing with anti-squadron, or Snipe past it at the X-Wing as the A-Wing didn't have Escort. Pretty simple.

It's the same as if there was a additional Y-wing engaged with the Saber alongside the A-Wing. Neither has Escort, so the Saber would have it's pick of the three viable targets as none of them are a ship or has Escort in range one.

Snipe just opens up the range of viable Squadrons an equipped squadron can fire at even if engaged . The only thing that matters in an engaged Snipe situation is if one or more of the enemy squadrons at range one has Escort.

Later in the game the situation got reversed in an obvious way, as a different X-Wing got into engagement range with Saber so locked it out of being able to snipe anything until the X-Wing could be destroyed (which never happened as Saber died soon after).

I agree with the limitations of engagement on snipe. It also makes sense thematically. As long as the squad doesn't have anything to deal with it can snipe from range. But when engaged they are caught in a dog fight, they can't line up a shot.

I agree with the limitations of engagement on snipe. It also makes sense thematically. As long as the squad doesn't have anything to deal with it can snipe from range. But when engaged they are caught in a dog fight, they can't line up a shot.

I agree with you about how it should work thematically but it is not supported by the rules or at least I didn't see how yet.

About its balance I don't know. The new wave don't arrive until this Friday here. We have this thread about how snipe should or shouldn't work, we have threads about defender spam and cloak. But I didn't see a thread talking about how awesome or disappointing snipe is.

Theme is very nice, but the rules are basically:

-Engagement prevents attacks on ships

-Escort prevents attacks on (other) squadrons