16 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

The card instructs you to place a set aside squadron instead of activating.

No it doesn't. You are inferring that the word 'instead' is referring to the squadron you are placing. It doesn't, it is referring to a squadron you WOULD have activated normally. ie one already on the board. (It's part of the same sentence referring to a squadron you would activate - it does not say 'instead of activating one of your carried squadrons') It is so that the placed squadrons count towards your squadron activations otherwise you could place squads AND activate other squads.

So, instead of activating a squadron already on the board, you INSTEAD place a squadron that is being carried by RLB. As there is a squadron activation symbol on the card the placed squadron is activated (granted at which point it is considered activated is an issue) and hence can shoot but not move because the card specifically says it cannot move 'this activation'. ie the card specifically states that this is an activation.

29 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

Nowhere. And that is a problem.

There are no rules precedents for anything RLB does - with the exception of setting squadrons aside, but (as pointed out before) even those are contradicted by #teamorange * .

The card instructs you to place a set aside squadron instead of activating. Neither to "place a squadron as part of its activation, replacing its movement", nor to "place a squadron and activate it". As a corollary, we don't know whether Boba Fett's ability triggers before or after placement.

(*: By comparison, under #teampurple , squadrons are governed strictly by the "set aside" rules for Hyperspace Assault until they are placed. After that, they are governed strictly by normal rules, with the only caveat that they cannot move until the end of the ship's activation. It may be a non-intuitive reading of "this activation", but at least it doesn't break anything.)

The reason the answer is "nowhere" is because you cannot activate squadrons that are not on playing field. You can only activate squadrons when they are on the playing field.

Squadrons that are set aside using RLBs are not on the playing field. They are not on the playing field until you physically place them within distance one of the carrier.

THEN they are on the playing field and only THEN can you activate the squadron.

Therefore, Boba Fett's ability triggers after you place and then activate him on the playing field.

Sorry, but this "no precedent" stuff is BS. The precedent is there by omission. Nothing in the rules allows you to activate squadrons that are not on the playing field like I said.

Edit: Also any argument stemming from this Team Purple is irrelevant because that's not how the card functions. End of Story.

Let me remind you all.

On 1/11/2017 at 9:27 AM, Undeadguy said:

Why is this a discussion anymore? I thought Michael Gernes made a ruling at FFG Regionals that placed squads can attack.

Follow Mr. Gernes instead of this condescending "I'm smarter than you, obviously you do this BS" and just play the **** game.

5 minutes ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

Edit: Also any argument stemming from this Team Purple is irrelevant because that's not how the card functions. End of Story.

And you know this, how?

7 hours ago, xerpo said:

My opinion is the same as the orange team, wich is likely everyone with a minium of common sense in their heads and mostly everyone in this forum but the 3 usuals that want to make it work their way.

Ad Hominem.

Try to be better than this. It doesn't help at all in hashing out rules.

I prefer the purple interpretation because it requires the least amount of rule bashing and is in the spirit of "if it's really good, it should be hard to do". I'll accept the orange interpretation if it's in the FAQ because I'm not too invested to just roll with it.

double double, post and bubble

6 hours ago, Tokra said:

I mean the card right now. The way it is written.

"Instead of activate" and "this activation".

And because the card (as it is written) never say anything about activating the squadrons, there was no reason to say where they are activated.

And here is where common sense comes into play. The squad command always activates squadrons, there is no other purpose for the squad command, the card only is restrictive about the movement, but the rest of the activation remains untouched, therefore, you activate, you place at distance 1, and you atack or not, as a normal activation. There is not enough papper in the wolrd to write a description like you guys need to be satisfied.

6 hours ago, Warlord Zepnick said:

With respect to the activation of the squad:

Where in the rules is there anything permitting you to activate squadrons that are not on the board?

The RLB card upgrade is permitting you this. As every single upgrade, title, officer or card in armada allows you to change in some way the basic rules.

5 minutes ago, xerpo said:

And here is where common sense comes into play. The squad command always activates squadrons, there is no other purpose for the squad command, the card only is restrictive about the movement, but the rest of the activation remains untouched, therefore, you activate, you place at distance 1, and you atack or not, as a normal activation. There is not enough papper in the wolrd to write a description like you guys need to be satisfied.

Yes and you are right because we don't have any precedence of a command not working as it is supposed to do. Wait! We have Repair crew so not common sense here.

RLB doesn't activate squadron cause it is logical. RLB activate squadron cause is what Mr Gernes said it does.

36 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Yes and you are right because we don't have any precedence of a command not working as it is supposed to do. Wait! We have Repair crew so not common sense here.

RLB doesn't activate squadron cause it is logical. RLB activate squadron cause is what Mr Gernes said it does.

Engineering command and Squad command not only work in a completeley different way (involving spendeable points for the engineering command), but also at different stages of play. I cant see how this refference to Repair crews make any sense at all.

Edit: your curious logic stands for Mr Gernes saying illogical things.

14 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Engineering command and Squad command not only work in a completeley different way (involving spendeable points for the engineering command), but also at different stages of play. I cant see how this refference to Repair crews make any sense at all.

Cause with repair crew you are using an engineering command in a total different way. As you said engineering command work spending a defined number of points. Repair crew changes this. With repair crew you don't spend points you just remove damage card no matter the points you would need to do this with the standard effect. So standard effects of commands are not the key argument here cause we have upgrades that change them. Repair crew does. RLB wording did it too. We know RLB doesn't anymore because Michael Gernes said that.

EDIT: there is just 1 upgrade right now but is enough to make a precedence of commands not working in the way they are supposed to do.

1 hour ago, xerpo said:

And here is where common sense comes into play. The squad command always activates squadrons, there is no other purpose for the squad command, the card only is restrictive about the movement, but the rest of the activation remains untouched, therefore, you activate, you place at distance 1, and you atack or not, as a normal activation. There is not enough papper in the wolrd to write a description like you guys need to be satisfied.

You mean like the repair crew does? It replace the normal effect with a total different one (keyword instead...) like ovinomanc3r posted already.

Well, just to show something (after you were not able to post a rule to your opinion):

Quote

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

The card says: Squadron Command: instead of activates a squadron you may place a set aside squadron.

So it contradict the rules that a squadron command always only activate squadrons. And in this case the card goes over the rule book.

Quote

1 hour ago, xerpo said:

The RLB card upgrade is permitting you this. As every single upgrade, title, officer or card in armada allows you to change in some way the basic rules.

No, it does not. No were on the RLB stands that you activate the squadrons when you place them. This is only what you think. There is only "place them". Nothing more.

And even the wording instead says that you are not activating the squadrons anymore (instead: as a replacement, substitute, or alternative) . You cannot activate squadrons anymore if you replace the activation with something else.

The correct wording you are looking for would be:
Squadron Commando: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. After you place the squadron you may activate it . It cannot move this activation.

One little sentence, and suddenly the card work total different.
You cannot just add some parts just because you think it fit. This is like saying: " i can change all my dice to crits. The card does not say so, but i feel it is right this way ".

In this case it work because it was rules by a member of FFG (as ovinomanc3r already said) in feedback with the designer (my impression) and will have no worth at all for the rules until it is in the FAQ. This might have been decided on the idea how the card should work.

Currently the card is broken and not working in any way according to the rules. And every TO or Judge can, and has to, rule on their own opinion. Most will use the rule that was given, but don't have to.

And if you say that FFG is always right about rulings and it will always come as they ruled earlier, look for Autotrusters in X-Wing, and the ruling of this card (ahead and after the FAQ).

10 hours ago, Tokra said:

The card says: Squadron Command: instead of activates a squadron you may place a set aside squadron.

No, it doesn't say that. Close, but not quite, there are a few words you've missed out.

10 hours ago, Tokra said:

And even the wording instead says that you are not activating the squadrons anymore (instead: as a replacement, substitute, or alternative) . You cannot activate squadrons anymore if you replace the activation with something else.

No, it doesn't say that either but you are getting close with the ' replacement, substitute or alternative '. The card is replacing squadrons you ' would ' activate with DIFFERENT squadrons. You are not replacing the activation, just what is being activated. The set-aside squadron are substitutes for other squadrons you would normally activate. You are replacing the activation of squadrons already in play with the activation of alternative squadrons that are set-aside.

10 hours ago, Tokra said:

The correct wording you are looking for would be:
Squadron Commando: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. After you place the squadron you may activate it . It cannot move this activation.

Nearly. Squadron Command: For each other squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. After you place the squadron it is activated . It cannot move this activation.

The lack of the word 'other' in the first sentence is causing confusion. The 'instead' does not mean 'instead of activating' it means 'instead of a squadron' - it in fact says exactly that but due to the wording people are assuming the squadron words referred to in the first sentence are BOTH referring to the set-aside squadrons. They aren't; hence the word ' would ' and the fact that the sentence then specifically refers to ' your set-aside squadrons '.

These squadrons are not the same squadrons mentioned in the first three words. Inserting the word 'other' would make it much clearer. The actual timing of the activation is unclear and does make a difference in certain edge cases.

And regarding whether the squadron is activated or not - ' It cannot move this ACTIVATION ' is pretty clear imo.

11 minutes ago, Kendraam said:

The lack of the word 'other' in the first sentence is causing confusion. The 'instead' does not mean 'instead of activating' it means 'instead of a squadron' - it in fact says exactly that but due to the wording people are assuming the squadron words referred to in the first sentence are BOTH referring to the set-aside squadrons.

I bet you my breakfast that anyone though that the squadron word referred to in the first sentence were referring to the set-aside squadron.

In fact this wording started this debate cause the actual reading was:

For each squadron (in play) you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadron...

This brought the debate in te first place cause the wording explicitly said that you must choose activate a squadron in play OR place a set-aside squadron which was not activated cause nowhere said it was.

Hopefully as I said several times Gernes gave us this unicorn and now we know the wording should say what you say. But the problem never was the lack of "other" rather than the lack of "those squadrons you place are activated".

The question about if those squadrons activate or not IS SOLVED so please let's move on. Other questions as when this activation take place or how it does and what happens with the squadrons when the ship is destroyed DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER YET. We could intend whatever we want but we won't know until a new FAQ. Everyone could play this upgrade as they wish but please, find an agreement with the other players before in order to have a nice game. 2 hours are precious to waste them cause this upgrade.

11 hours ago, Tokra said:

No, it does not. No were on the RLB stands that you activate the squadrons when you place them. This is only what you think. There is only "place them". Nothing more.

Aaaaand common sense again, sorry mate. The cute icon with the three arrows softly bending a little to the right side (The squadron command) follwed by a ":" means that you ARE activating squadrons. You NEED to execute a squadron command -that cannot be resolved anyother way but ACTIVATING squadrons- in order to make use of RLB card, as you would execute a navigation command in order to make use of engine techs.

And if you dont have enough from that, the last sentence in the RLB card clearly says: "You cannot move THIS ACTIVATION". What elese do you need to understand that you are activating squads with the new rules providen by the RLB card.

Just to point out in order to not confuse the people.

From the RRG page 5 "effect use and timing:

- Effects with a command icon as a header, such as
“M:,” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving
the matching command.

So it doesn't mean you ARE activating squadrons. It means you are resolving a squadron command that could be used without activating squadrons as Engine Techs (the exactly same mechanic) works even when you don't change the speed or increase the yaw value. It means that we must not intend that we are activating squadrons cause we could not do it at all and it is possible that the effect following the icon contradict or overwrite the default effect of the command as happens with the repair crew. In fact this is what this upgrade does too because you don't have your activation AND the effect of this card (as Engine Techs does). You must choose the default squadron command effect OR the new one given by this upgrade. Fortunately we already know that the new effect implies that you are activating the squadrons placed. But we don't know due to the squadron command icon or the RLB wording. We know cause it was said to us that RLB works this way.

It is true that THIS ACTIVATION was a clue that help us to intend that there is an activation. This is one of the reason we filled the first 16 pages. Both readings had good points to base their thesis. If not, the OP would end with a yes/no answer.

If someone found this upgrade pretty clear, easy to play and didn't need a ffg clarification I am happy about him, seriously. Others like me had problems with other cards like overload pulse, instigator since started playing this game so we try to play following the rules as they are and not as we thought they were. Sorry for our borderline comprehension.

Ok. From start. And it would help when you quote some rulings as well, instead of rubbing on “common sense” and it is so because I am Batman right.
I added some colors for easy viewing (and to make it a bit more colorfull ). Green for orignal text and blue for modified text. Red for rule references.

Quote

Commands
A ship can resolve the effect of a command by spending a command dial or command token with the matching icon at the appropriate time. The effect of the command is based on which component was spent:

Squadron: Resolve after revealing the ship’s command dial.

Dial: Activate a number of friendly squadrons up to the ship’s squadron value that are at close–medium range of the ship. Each squadron activated in this way can attack and move in either order. The squadrons are chosen and activated one at a time.

Token: Activate one squadron as described above.

Forget about the dial and focus on the token (for easy understanding).
The Squadron Command becomes:

Quote

Squadron: Activate one friendly squadron that is at close–medium range of the ship. The squadron activated in this way can attack and move in either order.

You are saying that this has to be done exactly as written in the rules, no matter what other cards tell you to do?

Ok, Boosted Comms:

Quote

Squadron: You can activate friendly squadrons at close-long range (instead of close-medium).

Quote

Squadron: Activate one friendly squadron that is at close–large range of the ship. The squadron activated in this way can attack and move in either order.

You are replacing close-medium range with close-long range. So you can replace parts (or the whole text) of the effect with something else. The golden rule say so as well.

Quote

Effects on components such as cards sometimes contradict rules found in the Learn to Play or Rules Reference booklets. In these situations, the component’s effect takes precedence.

Ok. Now lets take a look at RLB.

Quote

Squadron: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It cannot move this activation.

You are replacing the “activate one squadron”.
So the text of the Command Token becomes:

Quote

Squadron: Activate one friendly squadron that is at close–large range of the ship. The squadron activated in this way can attack and move in either order.
Or you may place one of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It cannot move this activation.

The squadron is placed with color set to the initiative token. This was rules with Hyperspace Assault. Even when Hyperspace Assault talk of deploy rather than place (just another continuity wording error?).
And yes, THIS MAKES NO SENSE. These two sentences does not fit together. This is the whole point of this discussion.
If you replace the activate in the squadron commando with something else, the squadron does not become activated anymore.
Example: If a card says: "Squadron: Turn the hull points of a squadron to 0 (meaning destroy it), to deal 1 damage to all squadrons within distance 1-5", it does not mean that you

Now just add the sentence I wrote a bit earlier.

Quote

Squadron: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. After you place the squadron you may activate it. It cannot move this activation.

And now it would work. The text will be:

Quote

Squadron: Activate one friendly squadron that is at close–large range of the ship. The squadron activated in this way can attack and move in either order.
Or you may place one of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. After you place the squadron you may activate it. It cannot move this activation.

You place it, you activate it, you cannot move but you can attack.

Yes, there is still a dubiety how this will work in combination with the Hyperspace Assault, but this is another part.

But one part was ruled in the FAQ:

Quote

If all of a player’s ships in the play area are destroyed, his ships and squadrons that are set aside are also destroyed. If the game goes to time, or the end of the sixth round, his ships and squadrons that are set aside are destroyed.

So the question what is happing with the squadrons if the ship (that is carrying the squadrons) is destroyed is basically answered with this. They count as destroyed.

And even the question if you can use squadrons from RBL for Hyperspace assault is more or less written already (half of it at least). You are placing the squadrons with RLB next to the ship with the RLB. So there is only missing a sentense, that you can place one of the set-aside squadrons that are next to the ship. The same count as well for Hyperspace Assault. A clarification that you can only place the ships/squadrons that were set aside by the card can me placed / deployed with it.
When they wrote the Hyperspace Assault there was only one card that could set aside ships / squadrons. So there was no need to make it clear.
But they could have done it better with RLB (in one way they did, with the sentense: place next to the ship). But it seems the text field on the card was to small for this many text, so they had to cut some important words .

If you say it is different, that tell how it should be handled in the same way I did (with rules), and not just with some cant.

And once again (I cannot say it often enough). I see both sides, and I am with you when the card should place and activate the squadrons (as it was said already it will do). But I only want to show where the misunderstanding and problems are coming from.
And all that is written here is my interpretation of the card and the rules.

On 1/31/2017 at 3:58 PM, xerpo said:

The squad command always activates squadrons, there is no other purpose for the squad command,

Except that now, there is such a purpose. The card says "for each squadron you would activate, you may instead," do something else.

On 2/1/2017 at 3:41 AM, Kendraam said:

The 'instead' does not mean 'instead of activating' it means 'instead of a squadron' - it in fact says exactly that but due to the wording people are assuming the squadron words referred to in the first sentence are BOTH referring to the set-aside squadrons.

No we aren't. We're assuming that it's a strange way of saying "up to your squadron value," designed to cover any instance of getting to activate any number of squadrons. For example, Liberty gets to activate one extra squadron on a token, so the wording needs to cover activating 1 squadron off a token, one Squadron Value off a dial, One Squadron Value +1 for a dial and a token, and One Squadron Value +2 for Dial, Token, and Liberty. (Not to mention OSV + 3 for Dial, Token, Liberty, and Expanded Hanger Bays, if someone should find some insane way to stack all that shit) And yes, I know Liberty can't mount it. The wording still needs to be covered, because similar effects may be in the works, or effects similar to Minister Tua.

On 2/1/2017 at 4:35 AM, xerpo said:

The cute icon with the three arrows softly bending a little to the right side (The squadron command) follwed by a ":" means that you ARE activating squadrons.

Wrong. It means that you are resolving a Squadron Command. Usually, that means activate squadrons. In this case, there's that word "instead" that keeps popping up.

On 2/1/2017 at 4:35 AM, xerpo said:

"You cannot move THIS ACTIVATION". What elese do you need to understand that you are activating squads with the new rules providen by the RLB card.

I need someone to prove that "this activation" refers to the squadron, not the ship. If it had just said "the squadron does not move" then I'd be right alongside you. Instead, it forbids any effect from moving the squadron until the current ship has completed its activation.

On 2/1/2017 at 7:58 AM, Tokra said:

Squadron: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. After you place the squadron you may activate it. It cannot move this activation.

I'm fine with this interpretation, but require that "you may activate it" is a separate action. Team Purple, one squadron "point" to deploy it, and one to activate it.

As above, I'm willing to provisionally accept the ruling of Guy Friday, since he's on the bloody design team. But until the FAQ comes out, we don't have an actual ruling, and I think Guy got it wrong.

48 minutes ago, JgzMan said:

I'm fine with this interpretation, but require that "you may activate it" is a separate action. Team Purple, one squadron "point" to deploy it, and one to activate

Change ". After you place the squadron you may" to "and" and it will be done. No team purple and no squadron points.

I agree with sheepie; as I already said many, many pages ago, the card would be far clearer if it read:

"Before deploying fleets, you may set aside a number of friendly squadrons up to your squadron value next to your ship card.

: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place and activate 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It cannot move this activation."

4 hours ago, DiabloAzul said:

I agree with sheepie; as I already said many, many pages ago, the card would be far clearer if it read:

"Before deploying fleets, you may set aside a number of friendly squadrons up to your squadron value next to your ship card.

: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place and activate 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It cannot move this activation."

That is just redundancy, the icon says you are activating squadrons, and it says they cannot move this activation. You just admitted that the card is clear, and people are choosing to get confused about it.

26 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

That is just redundancy, the icon says you are activating squadrons, and it says they cannot move this activation. You just admitted that the card is clear, and people are choosing to get confused about it.

The squad icon does not mean you are activating squads. It means you are allowed to, up to your squad value.

There is this notion that squad command=squad activation and this is not true.

You can burn a nav command/token to trigger ET and not change your speed.

You can burn a repair command/token to trigger Repair Crews.

RLB gives you another option with your squad command.

Also, DA said it would be clearer if the card read what he put. Not that the card is clear.

Huh? I said no such thing.

The icon means, very literally, "While resolving a Squadron command". That's explained in p.5 of the RRG. Thus, the card reads:

While resolving a Squadron command , for each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It cannot move this activation.

EDIT: D'oh, ninja'd!

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

That is just redundancy, the icon says you are activating squadrons, and it says they cannot move this activation. You just admitted that the card is clear, and people are choosing to get confused about it.

No. The icon says that you are allowed to resolve the effect when the ship is doing a squadron command. It has nothing to do with activating any squadrons.

See Effect use and Timing (RRG Page 5):

Quote

• Effects with a command icon as a header, such as “:” can be resolved once while the ship is resolving the matching command.

So first of all the ship need to resolve (meaning use a token and/or dial) a squadron command to be allowed to use the effect from rapid launch bays. Nothing else.

And basically you have the text (only taking a squadron token to make it clear):

Squadron Commando: Activate one squadron or place one set-aside squadron (the part from the RLB with the instead).

As Undeadguy said. You can do a squadron commando without activating any squadrons at all. The rapid launch bays will still trigger.

But lets play it through.
You use a squadron command with a token.
Rapid launch bays triggers (because you are doing a squadron command).
You say you want to use the one activation you get from the token and INSTEAD of activating a squadron with it, you place squadron from the bays on the field.
Now explain me how you are going to activate it (with the current text of the rules and the card). Unless place means place and activate, you just put it on the field with the color of the initiave token.

The card has to be changed so it can work as it was ruled. But the current version is saying place and dont activate. If you want to activate it, you need another squadron avtivation from the command.
Intention how it was meant to work is something different.

And once again. The last sentense is a total counter to the first part. On one side you "place and dont activate" on the second its says "this activation". It has to be fixed (and will be, in one way or another).

WARNING: if you came here to put your reading/understanding of this card you CAN

BUT

Please, READ the thread before. Even a superficial reading will help. If you are so lazy to read those 18 pages at least read the last one. Maybe you are missing something that was actually shared 5 post above. If 1 page is enough to cause you a stroke please move on and save us from suffer one.