Seems pretty straightforward to me, based on the FAQ and rule book reference I stated earlier.

Let's assume that you guys are right. If that's the case, why ever bother with non bomber squads? You could just fly in and drop your bombers like a one use ordnance. It wouldn't give your opponent any opportunity to react. It's for this reason, along with the FAQ and rules reference, that I believed your squads are placed unactivated.

Without this upgrade you can use a squadron activation to largely do this anyway, no? Especially if you're first player. With this card you pay 5 or 6 (can't recall the cost) simply for the privilege for a slightly safer journey.

Not to mention the deterrence effect.

Seems pretty straightforward to me, based on the FAQ and rule book reference I stated earlier.

Let's assume that you guys are right. If that's the case, why ever bother with non bomber squads? You could just fly in and drop your bombers like a one use ordnance. It wouldn't give your opponent any opportunity to react. It's for this reason, along with the FAQ and rules reference, that I believed your squads are placed unactivated.

That your squadron command occurs before maneuvers without flight commander....

Well, the card says "this activation". Not "that activation", nor "its activation".

"This activation" may mean one of two things:

1. The activation that was just referred to (cf. "Choose a squadron. This squadron gains Rogue."); or

2. The currently ongoing activation (cf. "Card effects cannot be resolved this round.").

The problem with #1 is, there was no activation referred to earlier on the card. The squadron placement happened instead of a squadron activation. Plus FFG generally words such references as "that" rather than "this".

I think you are over analysing it!

Why would it go to great lengths to say 'it cannot move' and not 'it cannot move and shoot'? Answer: Because it can shoot.

The usage of the word "instead" is ambiguous. It would be clearer if it said "instead you may activate and place". That it doesn't say this explicitly leads me to fall back on the existing rules for deploying set-aside squadrons - they are not activated.

Well, the card says "this activation". Not "that activation", nor "its activation".

"This activation" may mean one of two things:

1. The activation that was just referred to (cf. "Choose a squadron. This squadron gains Rogue."); or

2. The currently ongoing activation (cf. "Card effects cannot be resolved this round.").

The problem with #1 is, there was no activation referred to earlier on the card. The squadron placement happened instead of a squadron activation. Plus FFG generally words such references as "that" rather than "this".

I think you are over analysing it!

Why would it go to great lengths to say 'it cannot move' and not 'it cannot move and shoot'? Answer: Because it can shoot.

The usage of the word "instead" is ambiguous. It would be clearer if it said "instead you may activate and place". That it doesn't say this explicitly leads me to fall back on the existing rules for deploying set-aside squadrons - they are not activated.

Going only by what the card says, it says place. There is already a FAQ for placing squads outside of set up, they are placed unactivated. I'm done trying to convince you guys. The evidence is there, on the card, in the rules reference, and in the FAQ. Was worth the challenge though.

RLB states "Before deploying fleets, you may set aside a number of friendly squadrons up to your squadron value next to your ship card. Squad Command: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It cannot move this activation."

The 2 arguments are:

1. Squads placed with a squad command are activated and can shoot, but not move.

2. Squads placed with a squad command are not activated.

I think 2 is correct.

RLB gives you another ability to work with a squad command "For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead ". So I have 2 options. Activate a squad as normal, or place one within distance 1. Easy, I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

But is the squad considered activated when you place it? Can the squad shoot as part of the activation when you place the squad?

If we use RLB with a squad command, instead of activating a squad, we may place one at distance 1. So we are no longer going to activate a squad. We gave that up. Following that logic, the last sentence must refer to the only participating activation, which is the ship resolving the squad command. Therefore, you place a squad that certainly cannot move, and cannot shoot because that squad is not activated. This is supported if we imply some rules from other sources.

In the FAQ regarding Hyperspace Assault, "Ships and squadrons set aside are not in play. Their abilities and upgrades are inactive and they cannot be affected by any abilities. When a squadron that was set aside is deployed, set its activation slider to display the same color as the initiative token."

Set aside squads in Hyperspace Assault come in unactivated, and can be activated by a ship or during the squad phase.

If that does not sway you, I think it more beneficial to deploy unactivated since you can activate them and move. Dropping and attacking is nice and all, but the move can be better.

After writing all of this, there is a 3rd argument where both can be correct depending on the initiave color. Since you don't toggle sliders unless they get activated, using RLB on round 2 would mean you drop blue squads on a red turn meaning you don't get anything since they are already "considered activated" per the RRG. Or if you use RLB on round 3 means you drop blue squads on a blue turn so they get to shoot.

Desperately needs to be FAQ'd because regardles of how you interpret the card, there are like a million ways that it could have been more clearly written.

Desperately needs to be FAQ'd because regardles of how you interpret the card, there are like a million ways that it could have been more clearly written.

Agreed.

When I started reading this thread I was all gung ho to share my opinion, but by the time i got to page 8, I'm just exhausted and realized I don't care that much.

For 6 pts I most likely wont be using it regardless of the interpretation.

Really though, how hard is it to release an FAQ when a wave is released?

If their playtesters are any good at the game, this must have come up at some point.

Honestly, if I were a play tester I would be pissed that there would be so much debate over a card that can be deciphered from its own four corners.

FFG has blessed us with an amazing card, only to have people grasping at straws to craft an argument that renders the card absolute ****. I mean, c'mon people.

When I started reading this thread I was all gung ho to share my opinion, but by the time i got to page 8, I'm just exhausted and realized I don't care that much.

For 6 pts I most likely wont be using it regardless of the interpretation.

especially considering that in casual plays most players won'T have read the forums and will have a different interpretation than yours

When I started reading this thread I was all gung ho to share my opinion, but by the time i got to page 8, I'm just exhausted and realized I don't care that much.

For 6 pts I most likely wont be using it regardless of the interpretation.

This is kind of what I was getting at two pages ago. It really doesn't matter how it works because you are giving up more than you get from it. You lose 1-2 placements at the begining of the game and give up either expanded hanger bay or boosted comms, both of which are cheaper and will be more effective than this card. Only way I would take is if it let you drop the squad and attack but not be activated.

you drop the squad at distance 1 activated, it can shoot, not move.. . that's how i read it.... sort of the opposite of independence ...

you drop the squad at distance 1 activated, it can shoot, not move.. . that's how i read it.... sort of the opposite of independence ...

that was my first interpretation as well. Squads are activated and all as well. Otherwise, it's just a more powerful and easier to pull off version of Yavaris

Well what a read this was.

Honestly it can be a confusing card, if we let it. I can't see how anyone could think "it cannot move this activation." is referring to the ship itself.

Card reads pretty straight forwards.

Usually you can spend a Squadron dial (or token) to activate squadrons (inside your activation range) up to your squadron command value. Squadrons activated this way can both move and shoot and can do so in either order.

Instead you get a new ability

Instead of activating squadrons that are already in play, you can now launch the squadrons you placed on the side of your ship card at the start of the game, you can launch a number of squadrons equal to your command value, so if you have a SC of 4 and you placed 4 squadrons aside at the start of the game, now you can launch them from your RLB, and you place them at up to distance 1 of your ship, this takes the move component of the standard squadron activation away, they cannot move any further this round, but they can shoot at anything they are engaged with, just like the can when they get activated normally, once you have shot with one, you flip its activation, place the next one, shoot with that one, flip its activation and carry on till you have finished launching them.

Otherwise the points people have raised makes the card either pointless, or amazing as you get to not move your ship for an entire round for 6pts.

There's no need to get upset. This was a civil discussion.

Don't be like everyone else on the internet.

Now, allow me to please present the dissent, the minority vote:

Some relevant sections of the Rules Reference Guide ("RR"):

Activation : See “Ship Activation” and “Squadron Activation.” (Literally no help here.)

Squadron Activation :

Squadrons are activated during the Squadron Phase. Squadrons can also be activated during the Ship Phase when a ship resolves a [squadron] command.

• When a squadron is activated during the Squadron Phase, it can move or attack, but not both.

• When a squadron is activated by a [squadron] command, it can move and attack in any order.

• After a squadron activates, toggle its activation slider to track that it has activated.

• A squadron cannot activate if the color and icon of its activation slider do not match the initiative token.

Squadron {Command} :

Resolve after revealing the ship’s command dial.

◊ Dial: Activate a number of friendly squadrons up to the ship’s squadron value that are at close–medium range of the ship .

Each squadron activated in this way can attack and move in either order.

The squadrons are chosen and activated one at a time.

◊ Token: Activate one squadron as described above.

Upgrade Cards :

When building a fleet, upgrade cards can be equipped to ships by adding their fleet point costs to the total fleet point cost.

For each upgrade icon in a ship’s upgrade bar, it may equip one upgrade card with the matching upgrade icon.

• Equipped upgrade cards are placed next to the ship card to which they are equipped.

• A Rebel ship cannot equip an Imperial upgrade card, and an Imperial ship cannot equip a Rebel upgrade card. A card’s faction affiliation, if any, is indicated by the faction’s symbol to the left of the fleet point cost.

• A ship cannot have more than one upgrade card with the “Modification” trait.

• A title card can be equipped to a ship only if the ship and the title card share the same ship icon.

• A commander card can be equipped to any ship of the appropriate faction.

• If a ship’s upgrade card is discarded, it is flipped facedown but remains equipped for the purposes of scoring.

• On upgrade card effects, the term “you” refers to the ship that the upgrade is equipped to.

• An exhausted upgrade card cannot be exhausted again.

• Upgrade cards are readied during the Status Phase.

So, as is shown here there is a clear framework for activating (and only activating squadrons) by the issuance of a squadron command. Up until this point, there has never been any other in-game effect that can be accomplished with a squadron command that does not involve activation of a squadron. Unfortunately though, there is no easy answer just focused on the RR. It's still ambiguous. And unlike what was previously asserted, there is no section in the RR that unequivocally states that an upgrade card exclusively refers to the ship that it is attached to with its game text.

So now, the offender: (I will omit the first part of the card, because again, I don't think we're in disagreement there.)

"For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It cannot move this activation."

Again, I would like to point out how horrendously this is worded. But now, I will skip to crawling through the most recently released FAQ:

The FAQ Entry on "Hyperspace Assault" (p.6) has been brought up a great deal, because it provides some ideas for how the undeployed squadrons will likely be treated once they are deployed.

I have read the section many times, and while I appreciate the thought process between the notion that it will apply to deployed squadrons from RLB, I cannot agree for a very simple reason:

- The Hyperspace Assault objective deploys squadrons (and a ship) as if they were being deployed . The RLB squadrons are being placed as the result of a squadron command. Regardless of how it ultimately is ruled to work, you cannot analogize the two situations. These squadrons deployed by HA are naturally unactivated, since they come in at the top of the round and do so as a result of being deployed. RLB is a significantly different effect, again, activated by a squadron command.

I could not find any other supporting evidence for one side of the other in the FAQ.

So, our two main rules documents effectively useless, I turn now to the two main points of incoherency on this card; the 'instead', and the "this activation".

"For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It cannot move this activation ."

Going back to the steps of activating squadrons, the first (unspoken and unlisted) step is to select a squadron within close-medium distance to activate. Were you to try to activate any squadrons in the launch bays doing so, you would be unable to, as they are not within close-medium range of you. You would never be able to activate these squadrons without the instead.

My argument is that the instead does not necessarily override the "activate". Instead , my argument is that the 'instead' overrides the requirement that the squadrons activated be within close-medium range, and provides an alternative to activate the squadron by placing it within distance 1.

This may accurately be surmised to be me reading words into the card. This is true, and I am reading in this activation from the last part of the card, "It cannot move this activation."

Clearly, the "It" refers to the squadron.

So, which activation is the "this activation" referring to?

Again with no support from the rules, we can only look to currently existing upgrade cards to get some clues.

Some cards that reference squadron activations:

AFFM : "At the start of the Ship Phase, you may discard this card or spend a [squadron] token. If you do, until the end of the round, the speed of each squadron that a friendly ship activates is increased by 1, to a maximum of 5, until the end of that squadron's activation ."

Boosted comms : "[squadron command]: You can activate friendly squadrons at close-long range ( instead of close-medium)." (A better worded version of a replacement instead effect, I believe.)

Flight Controllers : "[squadron command]: The anti-squadron armament of each squadron that you activate is increased by 1 blue die until the end of its activation ."

Corrupter : " [squadron command]: the speed of each squadron with Bomber you activate is increased by 1 until the end of its activation ."

Independence : "[squadron Command]: Each squadron you activate may increase its speed to 4 until the end of its activation . Squadrons that change speed in this way cannot attack this activation ."

Vector : "[squadron Command]: The speed of each squadron without Heavy you activate is increased by 1, to a maximum of 5, until the end of its activation ."

Its clear that for the most part, when a card is referring to a squadron, the terms "its activation" is favored. The only other use of "this activation" is on Independence, which curiously enough is also ambiguous as to whether "this activation" is referring to the ship's activation or to the squadron's activation. Fortunately for Independence, the effect works as written with either interpretation.

I will also admit that it is a bit damning to my argument that the words "you would activate" appear in the RLB card as part of the preamble before the instead modification, which provides more support for the thought process that the instead replaces the whole enchilada.

However, we're not really done yet.

Some additional upgrade cards that reference activations:

Screed : " Once per activation , when a friendly ship is attacking, it may spend 1 die to change a die to a face with a [crit] icon."

Gunnery Teams : "You can attack from the same hull zone more than once per activation . That hull zone cannot target the same ship or squadron more than once during that activation ."

Demolisher : "During your activation , you can perform 1 of your attacks after you execute a maneuver."

Flight Commander : "During your activation , you can resolve your [squadron] command after you execute a maneuver."

It's also clear from these examples that "this activation" has never been used to refer to the ship's activation either. (With the aforementioned possible exception of Independence.)

However, it's also apparent that the phrase "your activation" is often used when referring to the ship.

I believe that the "this activation" must refer to the squadron's activation, and not to the ship's activation. If you accept that premise, the rest of the theory falls into place pretty well.

Again though, there is really no clear evidence either way.

So really the only clear part of all of this is that this is a dumpster fire of a card. Really only one or two additions/changes of wording could have made this clear as day.

In conclusion, I can see both sides of this, and I believe that the express wording on the card supports the majority's viewpoint. I don't personally believe that that's how it was intended, nor do I believe that it is the best way for the game to have the interaction work (I'm already building a ridiculous MC80-Yavaris combo that will drop ALL the B-wings).

Thanks most of you for your civility, and your attentiveness to the detail of this game.

Cheers!

p.s.. some more clarification may be had by looking at foreign translations of some of these upgrades. I know on the french version of RLB, the last part reads "This squadron can not move during this activation." , which I believe provides more support for the argument that it is the squadron's activation that is being discussed. It might be worthwhile to find more translations of other upgrades in french to compare and see how they line up.

It seems both arguments are hinging on what the last sentence is referring to in regards to what is activated.

Why can't one of the FFG peeps that patrol the forums just drop in and set this straight? I've seen 3 of them on here in the past week checking out discussions on the wave 5 spoiled content, but not the leaked content.

Anyway, Eggzavier you have a strong argument and valid points. As much as I hate to say it, I think it comes down to how you read the last sentence and what you think the pronouns refer to. The RRG does not strongly support either side because we have never had a card like this before.

I hope you get to drop unactivated squads just so I can throw some next to an activated ISD and nail it with a Relay boosted Yavaris double tap. In either case, I don't think the card is unbalanced. If you get to attack with a squad when you place it, simply kill the carrier. If they are unactivated when placed, the other player can react and pin the squads. I don't expect more than 1 of this to ever be in a list anyway.

we'll probably have our answer once the article is released today?

The wording of that card is kinda ugly.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/15578059_733889350120102_3450483882259885267_o.jpg?oh=051233ef8c6f81de2b4888a37dd1416d&oe=58E568CC

PASTED FROM FURTHER DOWN THE THREAD. THIS IS MY CURRENT UNDERSTANDING:

******************************************************************************************************************

So trying to understand. Here's the bottom half card text (I think the first half is crystal clear)

Quote

[squadron]: For each squadron you would activate with this command, you may instead place 1 of your set-aside squadrons within distance 1. It cannot move this activation.

Okay so you do a squadron activation. You trigger this effect, but that doesn't replace the actual squadron activation order.

Then for EACH squadron you WOULD activate with this command you may INSTEAD place 1 set aside squadron within distance 1. It cannot move this activation.

To me the instead is absolute and is basically an OR.

So for each squadron activation you have (4 on an MC80 for ex) you may EITHER place a set aside squadron OR activate a squadron as usual.

To me that means you could do this:

Activation 1: Drop a B-Wing.

Activation 2: Activate that B-Wing. It cannot move, but does get to attack.

Activation 3: Drop another B-Wing.

Activation 4: Activate another squadron within range as normal.

That's my best attempt at logically understanding the card.

.......FAQ needed alert......

Anyone sent an e-mail to FFG for a quick clarification?

Anyone sent an e-mail to FFG for a quick clarification?

We should all send FFG an email as soon as it comes out. Technically this info was leaked and we have to wait for a release date.

So I was of the oppinion that I could drop and activate squadrons.....still feel that way but if the op is correct... and the can't move portion is being directly tied to the ships activation per RRG

isd1 RLB + Expanded Hangers and the FC upgrade that allows you to squadron after you move..

4 decimators and rhymer/3 decimators intel and rhymer depending on opponents squad game...

isd as last ship activation shoot move then dump squads into safety. in squadron phase activate rhymer move to target position, rogue out with decimators to bombard that capital ship into scrap, next turn isd first activation squadron redux and main armament then scoot away...

That makes rogues with rhymer pretty nasty on the RLB

If squadrons can shoot as part of the deployment action, you don't even need to wait until the last activation (or to have the FC upgrade) to do basically that.

-Activate ISD (at or just outside of medium range of target).

-Reveal squadron command.

-Deploy Rhymer at distance 1, immediately shoot at target.

-Deploy 4 Decimators near Rhymer, immediately shoot at target.

-If the target is still standing, vaporize it with the ISD.

-Move to the next target.

Ouch.

I think that's more fair than the other interpretation.

Suppose you drop the squadrons unactivated.

Suppose I fly up with an engine tech boosted MC80H and drop 3 BWings and an HWK at distance 1 of it (after making a speed 3 maneuver) with Flight Commander.

Suppose, again, that these squadrons are unactivated.

Now, the next activation, I fly a FC/FCT Yavaris in at speed 3 that has a squadron command and a token.

I trigger FCT to move 2 of the squadrons within distance 1 again, hopefully close enough to then....

Double tap with three unactivated B Wings that have now effectively moved 2x speed 1 without being activated, after a speed 3 move, and can now drop a total of 6 Blues 6 Blacks on the defending unfortunate ship.

And then for extra luls, if I'm first player I can do it again the next turn before any of them have a chance to act. (With only 2, but still.)

I really just think it's more balanced for the squadrons to come in activated.