Ok ok, this is how you leverage Ackbar. Let yourself free to the variance of Ackbar and only add sensor teams for dice adjustment. Add more dice, let sheer quantity overpower.

Wave IV Ackbar Star Destroyers
Author: Ginkapo

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 385/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Fire Lanes
Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep

CR90 Corvette A (44 points)
- Jainas Light ( 2 points)
- Turbolaser Reroute Circuits ( 7 points)
= 53 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Bright Hope ( 2 points)
- Phylon Q7 Tractor Beams ( 6 points)
- Slicer Tools ( 7 points)
= 33 total ship cost

[ flagship ] MC30c Scout Frigate (69 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Foresight ( 8 points)
= 115 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Lando Calrissian ( 4 points)
- Sensor Team ( 5 points)
- Enhanced Armament ( 10 points)
= 82 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Admonition ( 8 points)
- Sensor Team ( 5 points)
- Enhanced Armament ( 10 points)
= 86 total ship cost

1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)

Card view link

Fleet created with Armada Warlords

Is it even effective to continue talking about the most extreme and specific examples to justify if it is worth taking Ackbar? Slashing with an MC80 for 5 turns? Really? If you are lucky, I'd say you can get 2 turns of that. It's the equivalent of saying my Xmas ISD can kill everything so long as my opponent flies everything into my front arc for 5 turns.

I don't think that is a good example to prove it is worth taking Ackbar or dropping him to put EA on an MC80 or AF. There is an opportunity cost in both examples, but it comes down to personal preference, neither of which are more right or wrong than the other.

The original point about he fifteen dice was just a segway... "That is hardly a reasonable example but it is a good segway into not looking at a purely numbers aspect."

Ackbar (and by extension broadsides based fleets) seems to be doing pretty well in this Regionals season. My suspicions for that are the current prevalence of flotillas and squadron heavy fleets. I frequently see flotilla/squadron fleets spend their games moving steadily towards their opponent. Ackbar fleets tend to move laterally relative to the opposing fleet. This makes the squadron game harder to coordinate than against a fleet that is coming directly towards you.

Ackbar gives a tactical advantage beyond the dice as he encourages/demands different movement tactics than conventional fleets.

Ackbar is, simply put, not very good. He's a strong commander, but not a great commander, and there's too much in the Rebel fleet he does not synergise with very well. Despite lots of Imperial players whining that he needed to be nerfed for almost a solid year, I don't believe an Ackbar list has ever won a Regional, National, or World event.

Explanation: the price you're paying to make Ackbar work (his cost plus then just single-arcing targets) just does not work on most ships. You need a quality side arc and Gunnery Team for the double-attack, and the only Rebel Ship that fits this bill is the Assault Frigate. Anything else in your list is typically sacrificing Ackbar efficiency (e.g. a Yavaris or an Admonition won't really make much use from Ackbar), so you end up with a very one-dimensional fleet of basically three Assault Frigates. This then ends up flying like a conga line with some very easily exploited weaknesses, not to mention that once the Ackbar ship is focused down the fleet really loses its teeth. The Conga line also lacks quality dice modification, so its attacks have a very high variance (you can't even take leading shots). The new Turbolaser in the Arquitens pack might help a little bit with this, but X7s still seem better for punching through tough targets and H9 seem pretty essential if you want to ever have a chance of sniping flotillas at range (but even then their Evade will punish you). It's also a fleet that doesn't play terribly well with fighters, outside of spammed YT-2400 packs who have the speed and independence to remain useful as the conga line does it thing.

Is it even effective to continue talking about the most extreme and specific examples to justify if it is worth taking Ackbar? Slashing with an MC80 for 5 turns? Really? If you are lucky, I'd say you can get 2 turns of that. It's the equivalent of saying my Xmas ISD can kill everything so long as my opponent flies everything into my front arc for 5 turns.

I don't think that is a good example to prove it is worth taking Ackbar or dropping him to put EA on an MC80 or AF. There is an opportunity cost in both examples, but it comes down to personal preference, neither of which are more right or wrong than the other.

The original point about he fifteen dice was just a segway... "That is hardly a reasonable example but it is a good segway into not looking at a purely numbers aspect."

No, THIS is a segway:

Ackbar is, simply put, not very good. He's a strong commander, but not a great commander, and there's too much in the Rebel fleet he does not synergise with very well. Despite lots of Imperial players whining that he needed to be nerfed for almost a solid year, I don't believe an Ackbar list has ever won a Regional, National, or World event.

Akbar has won 3 Regionals in the last 5 weeks.

For 18 points less, a flotilla, you can just equip EA.

Its also a Modification, which procludes other modifications (including redundant shields)... its also a Turbolaser slot, which procludes the very good chocies of XI7s or H9s.

There is more to cost than just points cost. Opportunity cost is also huge.

Going on Raw Points-to-Dice - Ackbar basically pays for himself if you're attempting to equip EA on at least 2 Ships... 20 Points vs 38 pts with a Double-Down on Red Dice...

Again, that has opportunity cost of not having another Admiral, but it frees opportunity advantage of not taking the Turbolaser Utility away at the same time...

Got multiple ships you want? If you've got 4 or more combat Vessels, Ackbar is immedaitely cheaper than trying ot put EA everywhere... In almost all fronts...

You can attempt to justify for or against with Ackbar mathematically... But None of the Mathematical methods used so far have defined enough variables in the Opportunity cost department to be anything more than a half-hearted model at best...

I specifically mention the opportunity cost of EA but you didn't quote that part. Also I do not believe you can wait opportunity cost. It is to dependant on matchup. Also if we are being the opportunity cost drum what for ships are you bringing to take advantage of Ackbar that in light of my main argument which is double arcing, do you actually come out ahead without losing out on other areas of your fleet, i.e. opportunity cost.

As far as broadside fleet success I guess I should have preceded my opinion with I believe virtually all fleets can be competitive. So while I stand by my opinion it really all comes down to player skill, familiarity, and matchups. If your comfortable with a fleet and know it's one and outs that's half the battle.

I want to reiterate a point from a previous debate on this subject between dras and I. Do I think Ackbar's opportunity cost is to high? For myself definitely. Do I think I could build a fleet to take advantage of Ackbar? Definitely, but his nicheness, imo greatly limits your ships in order to accomplish this.

I'm not disagreeing.

My core argument is against people who say "Mathematically, he's Bad."

.... Because your science is bogus.

It is nothing personal, to completely reiterate.... I think most people's science here is bogus, because very few people define enough variables... Its actually the reason I shy away from the complete quantitative analysis... Because I don't think even I could do a good enough job in that department.

As always I thank everyone for weeding through the auto correct of my phone

And dras you and I are on the same page. I type from my phone and therefore try to be very brief. Such can lead to some seemingly abrupt posts.

The fish had his day with conga lines....now people use pocket carriers and swarm lists that aren't built to combat them.

In short: would you like a lemon and pepper for your calamari rings?

Ackbar could see more play if you could still attack squadrons from non side arcs.

Ackbar could see more play if you could still attack squadrons from non side arcs.

Ackbar is the 4th (out of 14) most popular admiral in the current regionals season and has won the 2nd most events.

I would say Mr "It's a Trap!" is seeing plenty of play and having plenty of success.

To solve the Ackbar problem....

*Sigh*

Rebels. Just cut to the chase and steal a whole bunch of Kittens!

We stole just about everything else.

Empire can't even keep it's own Death Star plans from getting stolen.

Heck, Han, Luke and Chewie just about stole the whole Death Star. Double heck, R2D2 just about stole the Death Star! (he contented himself with messing with the waste disposal systems. Explains why there was so few TIE fighters in the battle. The pilots were cut off from their ships by mountains of garbage.)

So go ahead. Steal some Arquitens. It'd solve the whole not-enough-ships-to-make-Ackbar-worth-it/really-wanting-to-double-arc-because-it-gives-more-dice problems we're having here.

To solve the Ackbar problem....

*Sigh*

Rebels. Just cut to the chase and steal a whole bunch of Kittens!

We stole just about everything else.

Empire can't even keep it's own Death Star plans from getting stolen.

Heck, Han, Luke and Chewie just about stole the whole Death Star. Double heck, R2D2 just about stole the Death Star! (he contented himself with messing with the waste disposal systems. Explains why there was so few TIE fighters in the battle. The pilots were cut off from their ships by mountains of garbage.)

So go ahead. Steal some Arquitens. It'd solve the whole not-enough-ships-to-make-Ackbar-worth-it/really-wanting-to-double-arc-because-it-gives-more-dice problems we're having here.

I mean, that's half the point of my Finn/Poe Destiny deck. Steal AT-STs, throw at bad guy with Poe ability.

Also, thanks for the ideas everyone, I've got to play some with Ackbar but I have a few ideas about how to go forward from here.

I'm still having success with mine!

The list is prehistoric by now, with only a few alterations since Wave 2..

Home One, fully loaded
MKII
GR-75
8x A-Wings w/ Tycho

I'm going to change this up a bit though, I got some crazy ideas for regionals.

I'll try my Ackbar list tonight... I'll give you guys an update on how it performed!

I'm still having success with mine!

The list is prehistoric by now, with only a few alterations since Wave 2..

Home One, fully loaded

MKII

GR-75

8x A-Wings w/ Tycho

I'm going to change this up a bit though, I got some crazy ideas for regionals.

I wish you the best of luck, hero - Honest and Truly.

I took a very similar list, and was tabled in all 3 games yesterday...

I know part of it was my sub-par die rolling... The other main component was I really felt 3 activations were the end of me... When all of my opponents were bringing, effectively, twin threats + extra activations.

I mean, a Tanky MC80 is nice, but when it takes last/firsts from big hitters, even it can't get rid of damage fast enough when they're XI7 punching...

But I mean it, I hope you can do it well - if you continue to do it well, that means its most likely my dice that are still costing me.. Rather than anything else.

I'm still having success with mine!

The list is prehistoric by now, with only a few alterations since Wave 2..

Home One, fully loaded

MKII

GR-75

8x A-Wings w/ Tycho

I'm going to change this up a bit though, I got some crazy ideas for regionals.

I wish you the best of luck, hero - Honest and Truly.

I took a very similar list, and was tabled in all 3 games yesterday...

I know part of it was my sub-par die rolling... The other main component was I really felt 3 activations were the end of me... When all of my opponents were bringing, effectively, twin threats + extra activations.

I mean, a Tanky MC80 is nice, but when it takes last/firsts from big hitters, even it can't get rid of damage fast enough when they're XI7 punching...

But I mean it, I hope you can do it well - if you continue to do it well, that means its most likely my dice that are still costing me.. Rather than anything else.

What was your exact list? You know I run mine pretty tanky, but I also run mine like a BB.

I'm really hoping they provide new ways to play Ackbar in an interesting manner. I like the fun of rolling lots of attack dice from ships. And broadside firing feels so natural in a warships kind of way.

Also really the assault frigate seems to be largely based on using Ackbar. I'd hope that both the ship and the admiral get some support for more interesting game play.
(And also maybe some anti squadron supposed, as Ackbar fleets don't like squadrons)

So, I played Ackbar last night and it went pretty well!

The list I used is the same I posted earlier on this thread, with perhaps as a change ECM on the MC80 instead of advanced projector.

And ECM proved to be the key to the puzzle (is that the correct expression?), as the MC80 proved to be the MVP of the game. I'll post pictures later but I'll summarize the game like this:

Turn one: Nothing major, Demo closed in fast at speed 3 + engine techs on Ackbar Defiance. MC30s go towards the ISD at speed 3-4

Turn 2: Demo tries to go his way on Ackbar, but forgets to use a nav command to prompt engine techs and get behind. Demo gets ANNIHILATED (will post picture of the roll later) in one salvo from Defiance. Demo gone turn 2. MC30s try to avoid the front arc of the ISD, but end up overshooting it and get outside of black range as ISD increased its speed to 3 (bad play on my part)

Turn 3: My 3 A-Wings + Tycho are doing a job on the smallish rhymer ball. Intel ship is destroyed by a lucky 3 hit roll, Tycho gets to engage most of the bombers during squadron phase.

Turn 4: ISD goes full assault on the MC80, but having brace available due to ECM saves it. Repair crews on the flotilla has been repairing MC80 for 2 turns already.

Turn 5: Full broadside from Defiance onto the ISD, but only end up doing 4 hull damage on the ISD

Turn 6: MC 30s are now back in threat range of the ISD, but being the last round, they're 1 round short of actually doing anything. In short, they did nothing THE ENTIRE GAME

he's pretty fun as second player with Solar Corona

oh... I can't upload pictures from my computer?

No, unfortunately, you have to dowload from something on the Net. There is a way to create a page for your photo and download them after but I don't remember how (did'nt use it by myself).

The majority of the forum pages won't host pictures. And the ones that do use a very small limit-per-account.

Easiest way is to upload them to photobucket.com

At which point, you can click the little "IMG" link beside the photo, and post that link here to have the image displayed.

it will also work with facebook and imgur, but they occasionally need more work.

Thank's Dras, always there to save the day