So I keep running into a problem making Ackbar lists. Namely, he doesnt seem good currently. The Regionals data so far hasn't shown any strong Ackbar contenders (in that i did a CTL-F search for "Ackbar" in the thread and couldn't see anything place super high), and the HMC80 seems to keep falling by the wayside. As opposed to like half my store (who got in for the Big Triangles), i got into this game to play with squadrons and Mon Cal Cruisers (Why YES I did read a lot of the X-Wing series growing up, how can you tell?). I understand that the Ackbar Conga Line was both boring and bad for the game, and rightfully died to Small Ship Swarm. I'm not trying to bring that back (and i don't want to). But the problems I'm seeing with Ackbar are many:

To get the most benefit out of him, you want more ships. A fleet of 2 MC30s and 3 CR90s is a better use of Ackbar's ability than an MC30, MC80, and an Assault Frigate with him. But I want to fly the MC80 because come on, rolling 5-6 red dice is amazing, even if doesnt always work out the desired way. Just launching crazy amounts of damage from that distance seems great and fun, but 3 ship fleets are not easy things to fly anymore, especially with all the fighters around. The current hotness of 2 "Killer" ships (LMC80s, MC30s, Assault Frigates) and 2-3 flotillas is not great with Ackbar, because you have 2 ships that arent helping his cause in any way. The flotillas are great at pushing squadrons, but you need Ackbar to use his ability to get the most out of paying 38 points for him. If you only have 2 ships that can attack, i paid 17 points per ship to get 2 Enhanced Armaments that i can only use if i DONT double arc something.

The Double Arcing is also the problem. Every other commander/ship wants you to double arc a guy if you can, just to pour damage into him, neutering his defense tokens. But if I'm Ackbarring, barring Advanced Gunnery, I'm not hitting a ship twice in one turn (hence when everyone is going to be like "take CR90s", that doesnt address the fact that you give up the front arc for a slightly stronger side arc. Its 2 shots becoming 1, for a grand total of less dice that can be all taken in one defense token swoop.)

And you need fighters (Your guy's meta may not, but mine does. Im also not going to Regionals without fighters in a list, as that doesnt seem to be a way to win or do well AT ALL) or some way to handle fighters. Which was half the reason Rogue was invented, so you dont necessarily need to push the fighters with your ships and they can focus on other things. So you need to find a way to include THOSE, too.

The smartest/best way i can see to Ackbar is to try to fire out of both side arcs at the same time with a ship. It gives you effectively +4 red dice (2 per side) which, while luck dependent, is still the best way i can see. But trying to slash BEFORE Reinforced Blast Doors was suicidally crazy. Now, its less so, but its still not a super crazy good plan. Best way i can see is line up my MC80 to attempt to slash and then focus fire on one ship (with all my other ones) to try to remove it before it can block my path through his ships. I might also want to slow down and NOT go speed 2 running across the battlefield the whole time, but I'm not sure about that either.

So in a long winded way, how do you guys Ackbar in the current meta? I want him to be good, and I want to use an HMC80, but it is not easy to figure out a list and HOW to pilot it.

Look, currently, the meta is high activation rebel lists with a ton of bombers. 2-3 Medium Transports with Bomber Command, A Neb B with Yavaris, and an Assault Frigate are your starships. You then do what you can to max out starfighters with X-Wings, Y-Wings and a HWK to stop enemies from stopping you.....

I've had some success with two gunnery AFBs, 2 TRC90s, 1 flotilla, and squads to taste. It can take 4 yt2400s or I think 6 A wings.

Good movement, good activations, you can get pounced by all squad list but it can do alright.

he is very niche and with a double arc mathematically terrible. save the points use someone else

he is very niche and with a double arc mathematically terrible. save the points use someone else

That's until someone hits you hard with Ackbar MC30s. That will stop you bad-mouthing old fish-face :-)

So one issue is that you're trying Ackbar at a moment when the game favors squadron activations and support. Imperial no-squad lists are currently having similar issues, which is frustrating. Even the friendliest "I don't care if I win" players want to see their ideas get some success to validate the story elements of their fandom.

I'd suggest trying to combine some of the new upgrades that affect squadrons, particularly Fighter Officers and Fighter Coordination Teams. Both upgrades can be taken on MC80S cruisers to benefit a medium squadron ball. X-Wings and Y-Wings may benefit and you can cause some considerable damage to players overly reliant on squadrons by paying hard counters to remove those threats.

MC80H1 is fine right now, Ackbar is still okay-ish, but I wouldn't try to use them both at the same time. You're just not getting enough damage out of the MC80 unless you're slashing, and depending on how deployment goes that might not even be a possibility. If your goal is to build a semi competitive list, I'd probably give another commander a try.

I won the NC regional with an Ackbar MC80 list. He is an awesome way to deal with the high amount of flotillas currently being used in lists. Defiance and Leading shots is nice when you throw 6 reds and need an accuracy to shut down a targets key defense token. The MC30 was also more effective at killing flotillas just by being able to add the two reds out the side. I had one round where the MC30 managed to kill two flotillas sitting at close range.

Here's what I ran:

MC80 Assault - Ackbar, Defiance, Walex, ECM, AP, XI7,Engine Techs,Leading Shots

MC30c Scout - Lando, APT, TRCs, Admo, Gunnery Team

2 GR-75 Transports - Comms Net

GR-75 Transport - Repair Crew

4 A-wings

here's a list I made last week but haven't had the chance to test it. I basically need to focus on 1 arc and hope for big rolls.

Ackbar!!
Author: Vhailor

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 400/400

Commander: Admiral Ackbar

Assault Objective: Opening Salvo
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Intel Sweep

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Admonition ( 8 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
= 81 total ship cost

[ flagship ] MC80 Command Cruiser (106 points)
- Admiral Ackbar ( 38 points)
- Defiance ( 5 points)
- Skilled First Officer ( 1 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Advanced Projectors ( 6 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
= 167 total ship cost

MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 points)
- Foresight ( 8 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- X17 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
= 81 total ship cost

GR-75 Medium Transports (18 points)
- Repair Crews ( 4 points)
= 22 total ship cost

3 A-Wing Squadrons ( 33 points)
1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)

Where is Ginkapo when we need him?

Itoberg's list is a great starting place for putting Ackbar and an MC80 together. Also, I think you need to open the google docs file and read Schmitty's data. Ackbar has won several of the regionals, and if you look at top 4, he's reasonably well represented there. I don't personally play a lot of Ackbar, but I definitely respect him when he's on the other side of the table.

Where is Ginkapo when we need him?

Itoberg's list is a great starting place for putting Ackbar and an MC80 together. Also, I think you need to open the google docs file and read Schmitty's data. Ackbar has won several of the regionals, and if you look at top 4, he's reasonably well represented there. I don't personally play a lot of Ackbar, but I definitely respect him when he's on the other side of the table.

Here's a quick summary of the regionals data for Ackbar: Top 8 is 9 of 72, Top 4 is 6 of 44, and Winners is 3 of 13. Total lists with Ackbar at 19 of 181.

It seems like lists with him are kind of a good sleeper list compared to the heavy squadron or Rieeken lists many people are running.

Where is Ginkapo when we need him?

Itoberg's list is a great starting place for putting Ackbar and an MC80 together. Also, I think you need to open the google docs file and read Schmitty's data. Ackbar has won several of the regionals, and if you look at top 4, he's reasonably well represented there. I don't personally play a lot of Ackbar, but I definitely respect him when he's on the other side of the table.

Whoops, did NOT read the document, just scanned the Regionals forum. My bad, will go take a look now then.

One thing I like to compare is the overall percentage that took an Admiral versus their representation across the various result bands. At 10%, he's not only behind Rieekan in popularity, but also behind Dodonna. So sleeper hit really is a good characterization. To me, that likely isn't just the choice of Admiral, but also the overall list construction. There's a lot in there that helps him be a key meta counter.

Give him more chance and you will see if it was because "It's was a trap", because you where unlucky or your positionning.

By my experience, Ackbar always bring me good fire power and good result

For once, attempting not to derail a conversation.

Where is Ginkapo when we need him?

Itoberg's list is a great starting place for putting Ackbar and an MC80 together. Also, I think you need to open the google docs file and read Schmitty's data. Ackbar has won several of the regionals, and if you look at top 4, he's reasonably well represented there. I don't personally play a lot of Ackbar, but I definitely respect him when he's on the other side of the table.

I looked at the regionals data so far and it is interesting how well Ackbar lists are doing compared to Rieeken, which seems to be the most popular at the moment, with about 1 in 6 lists having him and 4 of 13 regionals winners had lists with him.

Here's a quick summary of the regionals data for Ackbar: Top 8 is 9 of 72, Top 4 is 6 of 44, and Winners is 3 of 13. Total lists with Ackbar at 19 of 181.

It seems like lists with him are kind of a good sleeper list compared to the heavy squadron or Rieeken lists many people are running.

I think a lot of it has to do with the rise of Flotillas. Ackbar gives you a decent counter with wide side arcs with lots of dice. The scatter tokens on the Flotillas mean that you have to have a reliable way of getting an accuracy in your attack pool OR roll so many dice that an accuracy is almost guaranteed and you only have to squeak 4 hits through which is pretty easy on Ackbar. Even the inability to double arc isn't much of a problem since double arcing flotillas is fairly difficult.

Where is Ginkapo when we need him?

Itoberg's list is a great starting place for putting Ackbar and an MC80 together. Also, I think you need to open the google docs file and read Schmitty's data. Ackbar has won several of the regionals, and if you look at top 4, he's reasonably well represented there. I don't personally play a lot of Ackbar, but I definitely respect him when he's on the other side of the table.

I looked at the regionals data so far and it is interesting how well Ackbar lists are doing compared to Rieeken, which seems to be the most popular at the moment, with about 1 in 6 lists having him and 4 of 13 regionals winners had lists with him.

Here's a quick summary of the regionals data for Ackbar: Top 8 is 9 of 72, Top 4 is 6 of 44, and Winners is 3 of 13. Total lists with Ackbar at 19 of 181.

It seems like lists with him are kind of a good sleeper list compared to the heavy squadron or Rieeken lists many people are running.

I think a lot of it has to do with the rise of Flotillas. Ackbar gives you a decent counter with wide side arcs with lots of dice. The scatter tokens on the Flotillas mean that you have to have a reliable way of getting an accuracy in your attack pool OR roll so many dice that an accuracy is almost guaranteed and you only have to squeak 4 hits through which is pretty easy on Ackbar. Even the inability to double arc isn't much of a problem since double arcing flotillas is fairly difficult.

This is all true but you need to look at return on investment in my opinion.

Amusingly enough, I think that if the hammerhead comes out for Rebels, a retcon of the CR90 would probably serve Ackbar well. With the majority of guns mounted forward on the HH, it seems that it would be better suited for the CR90s firing arcs, and the CR90 instead equipped with swapped arcs for the front and sides. Solely using 4-5 red dice plus TRC for Ackbar sounds like a fantastic flanker where you won't miss that front arc so much. Now if you use the CR90 for broadside detail, the 3-4 dice isn't nearly as good. I mean granted, they COULD make the HH a broadsider, and a cheap broadsider would be great for Ackbar, it just doesn't make much sense based on its gun setup.

Where is Ginkapo when we need him?

Itoberg's list is a great starting place for putting Ackbar and an MC80 together. Also, I think you need to open the google docs file and read Schmitty's data. Ackbar has won several of the regionals, and if you look at top 4, he's reasonably well represented there. I don't personally play a lot of Ackbar, but I definitely respect him when he's on the other side of the table.

I looked at the regionals data so far and it is interesting how well Ackbar lists are doing compared to Rieeken, which seems to be the most popular at the moment, with about 1 in 6 lists having him and 4 of 13 regionals winners had lists with him.

Here's a quick summary of the regionals data for Ackbar: Top 8 is 9 of 72, Top 4 is 6 of 44, and Winners is 3 of 13. Total lists with Ackbar at 19 of 181.

It seems like lists with him are kind of a good sleeper list compared to the heavy squadron or Rieeken lists many people are running.

I think a lot of it has to do with the rise of Flotillas. Ackbar gives you a decent counter with wide side arcs with lots of dice. The scatter tokens on the Flotillas mean that you have to have a reliable way of getting an accuracy in your attack pool OR roll so many dice that an accuracy is almost guaranteed and you only have to squeak 4 hits through which is pretty easy on Ackbar. Even the inability to double arc isn't much of a problem since double arcing flotillas is fairly difficult.

This is all true but you need to look at return on investment in my opinion.

Ackbar is situational like almost all the Admirals. The Ackbar cost complaint can be used to almost make any Admiral sound bad."Ackbar isn't worth it because you should be double arcing" isn't really any different than "Mon Mothma is useless because your CR90s shouldn't be getting shot outside of long range" or "Reeiken only works if you let your ship die." Kind of have to look at little more in depth than that.

For Ex. the MC80 Command Cruiser has only 1 red and 2 blues out the front. Ackbaring it does lose you a dice but you actually gain a long range dice which means you might actually be rolling more dice over the course of the game. Then there's always the possibility of slashing if you play aggressively enough.

Just like most Admirals (except maybe Dodonna cause he's a boss) you have to build a fleet for the Admiral. One thing I've enjoyed in the new meta is the decrease in XI7s and big ships. MC80 Assault Cruisers with Ackbar, ECM, and AP are beasts.

Where is Ginkapo when we need him?

Itoberg's list is a great starting place for putting Ackbar and an MC80 together. Also, I think you need to open the google docs file and read Schmitty's data. Ackbar has won several of the regionals, and if you look at top 4, he's reasonably well represented there. I don't personally play a lot of Ackbar, but I definitely respect him when he's on the other side of the table.

I looked at the regionals data so far and it is interesting how well Ackbar lists are doing compared to Rieeken, which seems to be the most popular at the moment, with about 1 in 6 lists having him and 4 of 13 regionals winners had lists with him.

Here's a quick summary of the regionals data for Ackbar: Top 8 is 9 of 72, Top 4 is 6 of 44, and Winners is 3 of 13. Total lists with Ackbar at 19 of 181.

It seems like lists with him are kind of a good sleeper list compared to the heavy squadron or Rieeken lists many people are running.

I think a lot of it has to do with the rise of Flotillas. Ackbar gives you a decent counter with wide side arcs with lots of dice. The scatter tokens on the Flotillas mean that you have to have a reliable way of getting an accuracy in your attack pool OR roll so many dice that an accuracy is almost guaranteed and you only have to squeak 4 hits through which is pretty easy on Ackbar. Even the inability to double arc isn't much of a problem since double arcing flotillas is fairly difficult.

This is all true but you need to look at return on investment in my opinion.

Ackbar is situational like almost all the Admirals. The Ackbar cost complaint can be used to almost make any Admiral sound bad."Ackbar isn't worth it because you should be double arcing" isn't really any different than "Mon Mothma is useless because your CR90s shouldn't be getting shot outside of long range" or "Reeiken only works if you let your ship die." Kind of have to look at little more in depth than that.

For Ex. the MC80 Command Cruiser has only 1 red and 2 blues out the front. Ackbaring it does lose you a dice but you actually gain a long range dice which means you might actually be rolling more dice over the course of the game. Then there's always the possibility of slashing if you play aggressively enough.

Just like most Admirals (except maybe Dodonna cause he's a boss) you have to build a fleet for the Admiral. One thing I've enjoyed in the new meta is the decrease in XI7s and big ships. MC80 Assault Cruisers with Ackbar, ECM, and AP are beasts.

So in your mc80 example you're posting a lot of points to gain a single red die. Also there are blue dice cr90s and mothma is also great against squadrons and great on mc30s all have nothing to do with long range really. I agree on the specialty premise of most rebel squadrons. Though I have shown mathematically elsewhere that most of the rebel commanders have access to most of the ships.

Where is Ginkapo when we need him?

Itoberg's list is a great starting place for putting Ackbar and an MC80 together. Also, I think you need to open the google docs file and read Schmitty's data. Ackbar has won several of the regionals, and if you look at top 4, he's reasonably well represented there. I don't personally play a lot of Ackbar, but I definitely respect him when he's on the other side of the table.

I looked at the regionals data so far and it is interesting how well Ackbar lists are doing compared to Rieeken, which seems to be the most popular at the moment, with about 1 in 6 lists having him and 4 of 13 regionals winners had lists with him.

Here's a quick summary of the regionals data for Ackbar: Top 8 is 9 of 72, Top 4 is 6 of 44, and Winners is 3 of 13. Total lists with Ackbar at 19 of 181.

It seems like lists with him are kind of a good sleeper list compared to the heavy squadron or Rieeken lists many people are running.

I think a lot of it has to do with the rise of Flotillas. Ackbar gives you a decent counter with wide side arcs with lots of dice. The scatter tokens on the Flotillas mean that you have to have a reliable way of getting an accuracy in your attack pool OR roll so many dice that an accuracy is almost guaranteed and you only have to squeak 4 hits through which is pretty easy on Ackbar. Even the inability to double arc isn't much of a problem since double arcing flotillas is fairly difficult.

This is all true but you need to look at return on investment in my opinion.

Ackbar is situational like almost all the Admirals. The Ackbar cost complaint can be used to almost make any Admiral sound bad."Ackbar isn't worth it because you should be double arcing" isn't really any different than "Mon Mothma is useless because your CR90s shouldn't be getting shot outside of long range" or "Reeiken only works if you let your ship die." Kind of have to look at little more in depth than that.

For Ex. the MC80 Command Cruiser has only 1 red and 2 blues out the front. Ackbaring it does lose you a dice but you actually gain a long range dice which means you might actually be rolling more dice over the course of the game. Then there's always the possibility of slashing if you play aggressively enough.

Just like most Admirals (except maybe Dodonna cause he's a boss) you have to build a fleet for the Admiral. One thing I've enjoyed in the new meta is the decrease in XI7s and big ships. MC80 Assault Cruisers with Ackbar, ECM, and AP are beasts.

So in your mc80 example you're posting a lot of points to gain a single red die. Also there are blue dice cr90s and mothma is also great against squadrons and great on mc30s all have nothing to do with long range really. I agree on the specialty premise of most rebel squadrons. Though I have shown mathematically elsewhere that most of the rebel commanders have access to most of the ships.

Perception again. In my example that's conservatively 6 extra dice on one ship over the course of 6 turns (5 over 5 if we get extra conservative). that also doesn't include the other ships in your list (2 MC80 giving you 10 dice over 5 turns etc...) In reality the ceiling is far higher but if we leave it at long range that is as many as 15 extra dice from one ship over the course of five turns if you maneuver correctly (or opponent is dumb) and slash every turn. That is hardly a reasonable example but it is a good segway into not looking at a purely numbers aspect.

One of the issues is that Home One has a weak front arc. In order to double arc you have to angle the nose towards the enemy. Angling the nose is a bad move since it will make it easier for your opponent to capitalize and sit in your front. Ackbar fixes this because he can keep the front away with losing almost no firepower. In this sense Ackbar kind of operates like Madine (granted nowhere near as great an extant) since he eases your maneuver choices, especially with the plethora of rebel broadside ships. Ackbar is just one of the easier admirals to mathematically quantify in a vacuum. That approach absolutely has merit I just don't believe you can solely rely on it unless you can apply the standard of measurement to all of the admirals.

Where is Ginkapo when we need him?

Itoberg's list is a great starting place for putting Ackbar and an MC80 together. Also, I think you need to open the google docs file and read Schmitty's data. Ackbar has won several of the regionals, and if you look at top 4, he's reasonably well represented there. I don't personally play a lot of Ackbar, but I definitely respect him when he's on the other side of the table.

I looked at the regionals data so far and it is interesting how well Ackbar lists are doing compared to Rieeken, which seems to be the most popular at the moment, with about 1 in 6 lists having him and 4 of 13 regionals winners had lists with him.

Here's a quick summary of the regionals data for Ackbar: Top 8 is 9 of 72, Top 4 is 6 of 44, and Winners is 3 of 13. Total lists with Ackbar at 19 of 181.

It seems like lists with him are kind of a good sleeper list compared to the heavy squadron or Rieeken lists many people are running.

I think a lot of it has to do with the rise of Flotillas. Ackbar gives you a decent counter with wide side arcs with lots of dice. The scatter tokens on the Flotillas mean that you have to have a reliable way of getting an accuracy in your attack pool OR roll so many dice that an accuracy is almost guaranteed and you only have to squeak 4 hits through which is pretty easy on Ackbar. Even the inability to double arc isn't much of a problem since double arcing flotillas is fairly difficult.

This is all true but you need to look at return on investment in my opinion.

Ackbar is situational like almost all the Admirals. The Ackbar cost complaint can be used to almost make any Admiral sound bad."Ackbar isn't worth it because you should be double arcing" isn't really any different than "Mon Mothma is useless because your CR90s shouldn't be getting shot outside of long range" or "Reeiken only works if you let your ship die." Kind of have to look at little more in depth than that.

For Ex. the MC80 Command Cruiser has only 1 red and 2 blues out the front. Ackbaring it does lose you a dice but you actually gain a long range dice which means you might actually be rolling more dice over the course of the game. Then there's always the possibility of slashing if you play aggressively enough.

Just like most Admirals (except maybe Dodonna cause he's a boss) you have to build a fleet for the Admiral. One thing I've enjoyed in the new meta is the decrease in XI7s and big ships. MC80 Assault Cruisers with Ackbar, ECM, and AP are beasts.

So in your mc80 example you're posting a lot of points to gain a single red die. Also there are blue dice cr90s and mothma is also great against squadrons and great on mc30s all have nothing to do with long range really. I agree on the specialty premise of most rebel squadrons. Though I have shown mathematically elsewhere that most of the rebel commanders have access to most of the ships.

Perception again. In my example that's conservatively 6 extra dice on one ship over the course of 6 turns (5 over 5 if we get extra conservative). that also doesn't include the other ships in your list (2 MC80 giving you 10 dice over 5 turns etc...) In reality the ceiling is far higher but if we leave it at long range that is as many as 15 extra dice from one ship over the course of five turns if you maneuver correctly (or opponent is dumb) and slash every turn. That is hardly a reasonable example but it is a good segway into not looking at a purely numbers aspect.

One of the issues is that Home One has a weak front arc. In order to double arc you have to angle the nose towards the enemy. Angling the nose is a bad move since it will make it easier for your opponent to capitalize and sit in your front. Ackbar fixes this because he can keep the front away with losing almost no firepower. In this sense Ackbar kind of operates like Madine (granted nowhere near as great an extant) since he eases your maneuver choices, especially with the plethora of rebel broadside ships. Ackbar is just one of the easier admirals to mathematically quantify in a vacuum. That approach absolutely has merit I just don't believe you can solely rely on it unless you can apply the standard of measurement to all of the admirals.

How are you getting to 15 dice? Also 5 turns out firing isn't imo 'extra conservative' it's on the low end of reasonable.

This also makes your nose an easy target for bombers. And in the mc80 example your ship will never be able to escape them due to your speed.

For 18 points less, a flotilla, you can just equip EA. There is an opportunity cost there for sure but 18 points is a lot and you can have the same net increase over double arcing while still maintaining the option of your other two arcs aaaand you get the ability of a different commander, all for 18 points cheaper. All you have to do is put more edit into your maneuvers. That doesn't even speak to the giant front arcs, relatively, of the cr90a, our the assault cruiser, our the assault frigate which actually has a title that want you to double arc.

Again this is all just my opinion.

For 18 points less, a flotilla, you can just equip EA.

Its also a Modification, which procludes other modifications (including redundant shields)... its also a Turbolaser slot, which procludes the very good chocies of XI7s or H9s.

There is more to cost than just points cost. Opportunity cost is also huge.

Going on Raw Points-to-Dice - Ackbar basically pays for himself if you're attempting to equip EA on at least 2 Ships... 20 Points vs 38 pts with a Double-Down on Red Dice...

Again, that has opportunity cost of not having another Admiral, but it frees opportunity advantage of not taking the Turbolaser Utility away at the same time...

Got multiple ships you want? If you've got 4 or more combat Vessels, Ackbar is immedaitely cheaper than trying ot put EA everywhere... In almost all fronts...

You can attempt to justify for or against with Ackbar mathematically... But None of the Mathematical methods used so far have defined enough variables in the Opportunity cost department to be anything more than a half-hearted model at best...

Perception again. In my example that's conservatively 6 extra dice on one ship over the course of 6 turns (5 over 5 if we get extra conservative). that also doesn't include the other ships in your list (2 MC80 giving you 10 dice over 5 turns etc...) In reality the ceiling is far higher but if we leave it at long range that is as many as 15 extra dice from one ship over the course of five turns if you maneuver correctly (or opponent is dumb) and slash every turn. That is hardly a reasonable example but it is a good segway into not looking at a purely numbers aspect.

One of the issues is that Home One has a weak front arc. In order to double arc you have to angle the nose towards the enemy. Angling the nose is a bad move since it will make it easier for your opponent to capitalize and sit in your front. Ackbar fixes this because he can keep the front away with losing almost no firepower. In this sense Ackbar kind of operates like Madine (granted nowhere near as great an extant) since he eases your maneuver choices, especially with the plethora of rebel broadside ships. Ackbar is just one of the easier admirals to mathematically quantify in a vacuum. That approach absolutely has merit I just don't believe you can solely rely on it unless you can apply the standard of measurement to all of the admirals.

How are you getting to 15 dice? Also 5 turns out firing isn't imo 'extra conservative' it's on the low end of reasonable.

This also makes your nose an easy target for bombers. And in the mc80 example your ship will never be able to escape them due to your speed.

For 18 points less, a flotilla, you can just equip EA. There is an opportunity cost there for sure but 18 points is a lot and you can have the same net increase over double arcing while still maintaining the option of your other two arcs aaaand you get the ability of a different commander, all for 18 points cheaper. All you have to do is put more edit into your maneuvers. That doesn't even speak to the giant front arcs, relatively, of the cr90a, our the assault cruiser, our the assault frigate which actually has a title that want you to double arc.

Again this is all just my opinion.

If you slash out of the a Ackbar MC 80 command at long range over 5 turns its a net 3 extra dice every turn (but once again an extreme example). 5 turns of shooting is my normal experience of Armada. To each their own in the Meta I guess. Often times we are shooting on the very bottom of turn one. I also might fly a little...aggressively (never leave home without engine techs).

Equipping EA also leave out other Turbo upgrades. It also doesn't account for the Ackbar boost over multiple ships vs equipping every single one with EA. And no admiral fixes the bomber the bomber issue for an MC80.

I guess my point in at it's most basic is that distilling every option to point efficiency is helpful, it's not the best way to look at Armada. If it were everyone should be playing naked CR90 swarms with Dodonna or Reeiken. Just to reiterate, helpful (and I always find it helpful when you or other provide the math for your findings) but not the end all be all.

Is it even effective to continue talking about the most extreme and specific examples to justify if it is worth taking Ackbar? Slashing with an MC80 for 5 turns? Really? If you are lucky, I'd say you can get 2 turns of that. It's the equivalent of saying my Xmas ISD can kill everything so long as my opponent flies everything into my front arc for 5 turns.

I don't think that is a good example to prove it is worth taking Ackbar or dropping him to put EA on an MC80 or AF. There is an opportunity cost in both examples, but it comes down to personal preference, neither of which are more right or wrong than the other.