You've had nearly eighteen years to get over that frustration. I can understand that after all that time hammering oneself in the hole of prequel hatred, it's tough or even impossible that the creators of the prequels did a perfectly fine job.

It's a scab that's always there. The disappointment is still palpable. I expected so much , only to find so little , that years later just the memory of that is enough to make me post on forums angrily about it. That is... the pain of the Fanboy.

I do find it subtly hilarious, however, that Mark is somehow willing to overlook the gaping plotholes in the prequel trilogy yet complain viciously about the ones in Episode 7. Or maybe I'm mistaking him for someone else...

And Forresto... I used to like the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles cartoon when I was that age. I LOVED it. Was popular with my friends because I was the only one who owned all the prime badguys AND April, making it easy to set up the playtime bad guys. Owned VHS cassettes of the episodes and even had the tech and the time to record them as they were broadcast - mostly because I refused to get up early enough to watch them.

But in rewatching them, those original cartoons are a hot ******* mess. Unwatchable if you're over the age of 12. Strictly designed to appeal to dumb kids that didn't know any better and sell them toys. Animation? Inbetweening? Writing? Plotline? Character development? HAH!

Compared to something WITH effort, even from the same general era (Darkwing Duck, Tiny Toons, Batman TAS) it's no contest: they were terrible . But because those TMNT cartoons are from childhood experiences, I know more than a few adults around my age who claim that they're good , for no better reason than "I was a kid when I liked them."

The things we like as children aren't in any way based on how good or awful those things objectively were.

The prequels are objectively awful.

The acting is wooden. The script is terrible. Each one creates multiple plot holes that don't need to exist because you had the original movies right in front of you to reference and dozens of fanboys to consult who work for you and grew up with the movies, Lucas . Instead of being written as appealing to all audiences, they're written for children except for the ham-handed political stuff which adults don't care about either. Every shot CLEARLY takes place on a green screen stage less than forty feet long. There was no editorial work on the first and barely any on the second. The only battle which has any sense of drama or passion is the final one between Anakin and Obi-Wan. It was written to sell toys first, tell the story of Anakin's fall third or fourth.

All of them have interesting ideas, they do get better after the first one, and Revenge of the Sith is not the worst movie I've ever seen and was for the most part even good (aside from Plothole #47: How Does Leia Remember Her Mom When Padme Dies Ten Seconds After Giving Birth From Being So Sad?), but man...

Compare Phantom Menace to something where effort was put in and everyone had carefully thought about its place in the series, like, oh, Rogue One.

I agree, no one should be bashed for enjoying the prequels. I still enjoy watching them in spite of their flaws and they do have their good moments.

My kids are still young enough to enjoy what they want without worrying about peer pressure. At new year's eve, we had a small sleepover with another friend of their who is a big Star Wars fan and guess what film they wanted to watch?

The Phantom Menace.

Fandom whips itself up into knots over the prequels. If you don't like them that is fine but I take exception to people bashing other fans based on how much they like individual entries in the saga (or not). Can't we celebrate our shared fandom rather than label each other as prequel haters or lovers?

Let go of your hate.

And for years we've seen fans trying to argue tat the prequels are objectively awful because the films did not meet their subjective expectations. Which is objective nonsense.

Thankfully, if the world doesn't end in the next twenty years it's likely that there will be a full-blown remake of the prequels with competent people at the helm.

The hatred blinds your judgement, young padawan.

How is it likely? Disney did absolutely nothing that could give a slightest impression that something like this could ever happen.

At some point, the amount of money Disney is making off ownership of the Star Wars license will be less than what somebody else is willing to pay for it, or less than some arbitrary internal metric. At that point either Disney will reboot Star Wars or they'll sell the rights to another entity that will reboot Star Wars (though they'll probably start with Luke, not Anakin). This will entail another canon reset.

Of course all such predictions rely on the world continuing to function in a way we more or less understand. Apocalyptic war or nerd-Rapture Singularity would void lots of otherwise-reasonable predictions.

I really hope none of the films get remade when there's so much to explore.

What about a film set at the foundation of the Republic with the war between the Sith and the Jedi? There are so many things to explore that I just think they should move on.

My problem with the old EU was that the further past the OT it got the more it seemed like the universe was just recycling old concepts with new people. The Empire is reborn again...and again...and again then the sith rise up, again. In universe the future didnt seem to me as cool or as different as it could be just stuck in a rut of rehashed stories. If you go by the old EU and you went one thousand year after a New Hope the same battles and conflicts would be happening.

I like that in the new films the jedi are nonexistent so far and that the bad guys aren't actually the sith.

tbh, I don' think it's accurate to say that prequel l haters think that you're less of a fan for liking them. Just that, like, if there was an asteroid heading towards earth and we had a space ship to escape then that would be the first question on the entry exam.

And that's even if we had enough seats for everyone.

I enjoy the prequels, but I know they are horrible movies.

Sure they have some good things (world-building is amazing), good actors (Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Temuera Morrison), and a good plot (executed horribly). But for all the good things in the prequels, they are NOT good movies. TPM adds nothing to the story except make the Anakin/Padme romance creepy, and create the horrific ship known as the N1. AotC pretty much has 15 minutes of quality and everything else is hopeless. RotJ suffers from pacing issues because the other 2 movies did nothing to help the story. The prequels have bad writing, bad storytelling, and bad acting. I still enjoy them for what they are. They were the first Star Wars movies I saw. But when I look at something like Rogue One, and see the passion and devotion put into it vs. prequels, it becomes even more apparent how bad they are. I will never belittle someone, or make them feel like they are a "lesser" fan for enjoying a different aspect of the fandom then I do. But dear God the prequels are horrible movies made even worse by the fact that they had so much potential to be amazing.

Also I enjoy the prequels much more then I enjoy TFA, even if TFA was a slightly better made movie the the prequels movies.

Yeah, I was always in two minds about Jedi. There are parts that to this day I think are corny (Ewoks mostly) and of course there's those egregious digital alterations, but I feel like they're outweighed by that *fantastic* space battle and the duel between Vader and Luke is one of the most intense moments in cinema. You can practically feel the entire galaxy holding it's breath as Luke teeters right on the edge of the dark side, and that music ... wow.

One of the things that upsets me the most about the prequels is the wasted opportunity.

It could have been a grand, sweeping story about one man succumbing to temptation and then redeeming himself at the end, at the cost of his own life. The capstone moment where the funeral pyre consumes Darth Vader's armor and his son, the only one who believed there was still a seed of good in him, watches the mortal remains of a man vilified by the universe ascend to the sky...

Deserves so much better than "Are you an angel?" as a start to the story. *spits*

Oh gods. I'm actually starting to get angry about this all over again. I am one with the Force, and the Force is one with me...

Lucas says right in the DVD that he made the prequels with the assumption that "we all knew the story" and therefore he just needed to show us the fight scenes. If you watch the deleted scenes, they are the ones that should have been in the movie to convince us that a whiny young Jedi would even be remotely attractive to an erudite, powerful Queen of Naboo. The story line is there, and is pretty good, if you can ignore Jar Jar Binks, cameos by all the old characters to sell more toys, and a terrible pre-pubescent love story.

And he hired Yes-Man McCallum to ratify that all his steaming piles of **** were actually golden eggs.

I enjoy the prequels, but I know they are horrible movies.

Sure they have some good things (world-building is amazing), good actors (Ewan McGregor, Ian McDiarmid, Temuera Morrison), and a good plot (executed horribly). But for all the good things in the prequels, they are NOT good movies. TPM adds nothing to the story except make the Anakin/Padme romance creepy, and create the horrific ship known as the N1. AotC pretty much has 15 minutes of quality and everything else is hopeless. RotJ suffers from pacing issues because the other 2 movies did nothing to help the story. The prequels have bad writing, bad storytelling, and bad acting. I still enjoy them for what they are. They were the first Star Wars movies I saw. But when I look at something like Rogue One, and see the passion and devotion put into it vs. prequels, it becomes even more apparent how bad they are. I will never belittle someone, or make them feel like they are a "lesser" fan for enjoying a different aspect of the fandom then I do. But dear God the prequels are horrible movies made even worse by the fact that they had so much potential to be amazing.

Also I enjoy the prequels much more then I enjoy TFA, even if TFA was a slightly better made movie the the prequels movies.

Such a waste of acting talent. All of those people should have been fantastic (and let's not forget Samuel Jackson), but I can't help but feel like all of their performances are stilted by being confined and overly controlled by bad directing.

My understanding is that Ewan McGregor would love to reprise Obi-Wan in a post-Prequel/pre-ANH storyline about Ben Kenobi. That would be awesome!

I watch all the movies at least once or twice a year. So I don't need to reevaluate anything I know that I enjoy them all. TFA might be my least favorite, and possibly the only one I like but not love. But as I said I can still enjoy it.

If you're a fan who doesn't like the prequels, fine that's your opinion.

If you want to complain online about how much you don't like them, go ahead.

But stop making those who like all the movies including the prequels feel like they are lesser fans. Or that you need to convince then that their opinions are wrong.

I just don't understand what metric someone can possibly use that puts TFA behind the prequels. And indeed, puts one of the prequels ahead of the original trilogy. What standard can you be holding the films to where III is the best, and TPM comes before ESB or RotJ?

TPM before ESB? What? Jar Jar Binks and "Let's try spinning!" over the assault on Hoth or "I am your father"?

I don't want to convince you you're wrong or a lesser fan, I'm just utterly baffled how we can watch the same movies and rank them so differently.

If I try to reason from objective critique of cinema, then I think Revenge of the Sith is George Lucas' best film, even if you include eps. V and VI. For me, I cannot decide if I like Revenge the most, or Empire.

Really, you can write a book about how RotS is filled with symbolism, theme, and myth. More than anything in Star Wars it's just bursting with imagery, pure imagery. We'll keep coming back to it for years to come, when we've forgotten all that Disney has produced, because there is just so much there. Revenge of the Sith is a great Space Opera film.

The weird thing is that I feel as though you're trying to turn it around on the (majority) of Star Wars fans who hate the prequels and make those fans feel bad for NOT enjoying them.

For me, they're... frustrating . There are stories there which deserve to be told: Palpatine's master manipulation of the Senate, Jedi Order, and Separatists; Darth Maul and Obi-Wan's first collision; the story of Padme before she became a mother to Luke & Leia; where the clones came from and how the War began; how Anakin was actually tempted to the Dark Side by fear of loss, the very thing that the Jedi rules against falling in love were meant to prevent; the final days of the Jedi Order before almost every single member was executed.

Those are all stories with GREAT potential. If The Phantom Menace had focused on Padme's desperate attempts to secure her people against a sudden, unexpected blockade and invasion, only to be rescued from the Trade Federation army by an unexpected Jedi Master and his Padawan, who dragged her back to the Senate to testify about the invasion. Then, on Coruscant, trying to find the mastermind behind the Trade Federation's manipulation with the kindly advice of her world's Senator - only to be stymied at every turn by a mysterious red and blacked skinned alien with horns who always seems one step ahead of her...

THAT COULD HAVE BEEN GOOD.

Instead we got a Jamaican alien that steps in the poopy and a kid who tries spinning, because that's a good trick.

It's wasted potential, and it frustrates me.

Thankfully, if the world doesn't end in the next twenty years it's likely that there will be a full-blown remake of the prequels with competent people at the helm.

Stop with the remake. Even if you don't like it (and i get it, most of humanity hates prequels), it's an original artist vision. Even if they could be made better, if i were George Lucas, i would be so pissed off if someone remade my movies because "they can be better". They probably can. But heart was put in those movies and they created a large part of the universe (people tend to forget that most of the lore comes from prequels, OT is just a closed story), just remaking them would be shitting on the whole franchise and Star Warse universe.

If I try to reason from objective critique of cinema....

I try to reason from X-Wing expansions that get to stores ahead of schedule.

(I love playing "Base Your Argument on Something That Doesn't Exist"!)

I watch all the movies at least once or twice a year. So I don't need to reevaluate anything I know that I enjoy them all. TFA might be my least favorite, and possibly the only one I like but not love. But as I said I can still enjoy it.If you're a fan who doesn't like the prequels, fine that's your opinion.If you want to complain online about how much you don't like them, go ahead.But stop making those who like all the movies including the prequels feel like they are lesser fans. Or that you need to convince then that their opinions are wrong.

I just don't understand what metric someone can possibly use that puts TFA behind the prequels. And indeed, puts one of the prequels ahead of the original trilogy. What standard can you be holding the films to where III is the best, and TPM comes before ESB or RotJ?TPM before ESB? What? Jar Jar Binks and "Let's try spinning!" over the assault on Hoth or "I am your father"?I don't want to convince you you're wrong or a lesser fan, I'm just utterly baffled how we can watch the same movies and rank them so differently.

First of all I already I mentioned I like all the movies and I don't have huge gaps in my preferences between them.

It might not seem logical to you but there's no "correct" way to rank the films. Everyone has their own preferences and I've probably seen just about every ranking combo you can think of. Especially on theforce.net.

And yes TFA is definitely my least favorite. I've actually seen quite a few fans rank it last. Even some who hate the prequels. But I hold no ill will towards anyone who places it in their top rankings.

If I try to reason from objective critique of cinema....

I try to reason from X-Wing expansions that get to stores ahead of schedule.(I love playing "Base Your Argument on Something That Doesn't Exist"!)

Well there's commentary/critique of art, which may not be objective, but does have its methods and paradigms, heuristics and conventions. So I could try to set a step in that direction, that's more my point.

I went from loving Force Awakens to hating jt. I recently rewatched it and enjoyed i a lot more. In fact I appreciate the music a lot more.

If I try to reason from objective critique of cinema, then I think Revenge of the Sith is George Lucas' best film, even if you include eps. V and VI. For me, I cannot decide if I like Revenge the most, or Empire.

Really, you can write a book about how RotS is filled with symbolism, theme, and myth. More than anything in Star Wars it's just bursting with imagery, pure imagery. We'll keep coming back to it for years to come, when we've forgotten all that Disney has produced, because there is just so much there. Revenge of the Sith is a great Space Opera film.

I'm not even sure if you're being serious.

It might not seem logical to you but there's no "correct" way to rank the films.

No, I totally get that everyone has their own preferences, I just don't understand how you can apply the same metric to all 8 Star Wars movies and have III come out on top, and TPM before ESB. I can't imagine a thought process that's not internally inconsistent, that allows that to happen. Everyone's got their own personal taste, and that's cool, but I don't understand how someone can watch both movies, apply the same ranking system, and come up with such wildly different results.

The weird thing is that I feel as though you're trying to turn it around on the (majority) of Star Wars fans who hate the prequels and make those fans feel bad for NOT enjoying them.

For me, they're... frustrating . There are stories there which deserve to be told: Palpatine's master manipulation of the Senate, Jedi Order, and Separatists; Darth Maul and Obi-Wan's first collision; the story of Padme before she became a mother to Luke & Leia; where the clones came from and how the War began; how Anakin was actually tempted to the Dark Side by fear of loss, the very thing that the Jedi rules against falling in love were meant to prevent; the final days of the Jedi Order before almost every single member was executed.

Those are all stories with GREAT potential. If The Phantom Menace had focused on Padme's desperate attempts to secure her people against a sudden, unexpected blockade and invasion, only to be rescued from the Trade Federation army by an unexpected Jedi Master and his Padawan, who dragged her back to the Senate to testify about the invasion. Then, on Coruscant, trying to find the mastermind behind the Trade Federation's manipulation with the kindly advice of her world's Senator - only to be stymied at every turn by a mysterious red and blacked skinned alien with horns who always seems one step ahead of her...

THAT COULD HAVE BEEN GOOD.

Instead we got a Jamaican alien that steps in the poopy and a kid who tries spinning, because that's a good trick.

It's wasted potential, and it frustrates me.

Thankfully, if the world doesn't end in the next twenty years it's likely that there will be a full-blown remake of the prequels with competent people at the helm.

Stop with the remake. Even if you don't like it (and i get it, most of humanity hates prequels), it's an original artist vision. Even if they could be made better, if i were George Lucas, i would be so pissed off if someone remade my movies because "they can be better". They probably can. But heart was put in those movies and they created a large part of the universe (people tend to forget that most of the lore comes from prequels, OT is just a closed story), just remaking them would be shitting on the whole franchise and Star Warse universe.

What if the remake were from a different POV. . .like the story of Bail Organa fighting to hold the Republic together and realizing that the whole galaxy is about to come apart?

If I try to reason from objective critique of cinema, then I think Revenge of the Sith is George Lucas' best film, even if you include eps. V and VI. For me, I cannot decide if I like Revenge the most, or Empire.

Really, you can write a book about how RotS is filled with symbolism, theme, and myth. More than anything in Star Wars it's just bursting with imagery, pure imagery. We'll keep coming back to it for years to come, when we've forgotten all that Disney has produced, because there is just so much there. Revenge of the Sith is a great Space Opera film.

I'm not even sure if you're being serious.

Indeed, you'll have to elaborate Lingula, there's not much room I can see for nuance and subtlety in a film that has an extended battle sequence where a guy rides a giant lizard and we're shown that Anakin is for real evil now by doing the most extreme thing possible in having him murder a room full of children with his own hands.

So going back to Rogue One...

Apparently the crew of the Hammerhead jesttisoned in the escape pods at the last minute but because they are in low orbit they land on the planet and are consequently destroyed by the Death Star...

So going back to Rogue One...

Apparently the crew of the Hammerhead jesttisoned in the escape pods at the last minute but because they are in low orbit they land on the planet and are consequently destroyed by the Death Star...

You sure about the landing part? I've read somewhere about a deleted scene when they escape in the pods, but they should smash into the shield.

I subscribe to the theory that the shield never goes down, it's just weakened enough by the wrecks to let the signal through - we never see the wrecks reach the surface and we can see the shield being up even after the Death Star fires.

So going back to Rogue One...

Apparently the crew of the Hammerhead jesttisoned in the escape pods at the last minute but because they are in low orbit they land on the planet and are consequently destroyed by the Death Star...

You sure about the landing part? I've read somewhere about a deleted scene when they escape in the pods, but they should smash into the shield.

I subscribe to the theory that the shield never goes down, it's just weakened enough by the wrecks to let the signal through - we never see the wrecks reach the surface and we can see the shield being up even after the Death Star fires.

The latter was in the same article I read the crew got to escape pods. That may have been speculation on the article's part but I dont remember.

Either way thats a grim fate and im glad Rogue One really nailed the overwhelming power of the Empire and the desperation of the rebels.

I'm reading the novelisation at the moment (Just up to the part where Jyn and Cassian meet up with Saw) so I'll let you know if the book covers that detail at all when I get to that part

It might not seem logical to you but there's no "correct" way to rank the films.

No, I totally get that everyone has their own preferences, I just don't understand how you can apply the same metric to all 8 Star Wars movies and have III come out on top, and TPM before ESB. I can't imagine a thought process that's not internally inconsistent, that allows that to happen. Everyone's got their own personal taste, and that's cool, but I don't understand how someone can watch both movies, apply the same ranking system, and come up with such wildly different results.

It's the same as if you ranked the seasons of a TV show you like or the albums from an artist you like. You're going to find some rankings that are maybe more surprising than others but it's just what that individual person likes more.

Now as to why I like TPM. There are many reasons but if I had to narrow it down a bit...

Best lightsaber fight of the saga

One of the best music scores - with possibly the best theme of the saga

Favorite character - Qui-gon Jinn

Lots of action

Beautiful cinematography

It might not seem logical to you but there's no "correct" way to rank the films.

No, I totally get that everyone has their own preferences, I just don't understand how you can apply the same metric to all 8 Star Wars movies and have III come out on top, and TPM before ESB. I can't imagine a thought process that's not internally inconsistent, that allows that to happen. Everyone's got their own personal taste, and that's cool, but I don't understand how someone can watch both movies, apply the same ranking system, and come up with such wildly different results.

It's not like I have a list of criteria and judge them all to see who comes out on top. It's simply: what do I enjoy watching more?

It's the same as if you ranked the seasons of a TV show you like or the albums from an artist you like. You're going to find some rankings that are maybe more surprising than others but it's just what that individual person likes more.

Now as to why I like TPM. There are many reasons but if I had to narrow it down a bit...

Best lightsaber fight of the saga

One of the best music scores - with possibly the best theme of the saga

Favorite character - Qui-gon Jinn

Lots of action

Beautiful cinematography

Duel of the Fates was John Williams at some of his finest, but his soundtrack for ESB was absolutely breathtaking almost 40 years ago and is still so. You could of course say SW as a whole has awesome music and sound design, which it does.

TPM had an awesome action sequence in the Pod Race, and the ability to show Anakin win or lose, with losing being a great and unexpected direction for the narative if the movie had gone that way. The Loghtsaber fight was great on many levels and tho it didn't have the emotional impact of Luke vs Vader it did have its own emotional build up and pay off. I just wish there had been more Maul chasing and hounding the Jedi before the final confrontation. Perhaps if they had less Binks and silly trade federation shenanigans. The battles also had plenty of action but there were still many many scenes that slowed the picture to a crawl. One of the few 'slow' scenes that actually worked was the reveal of Ota Gunga the underwater city, it was spectacular...until Boss Nass showed up and sprayed his slobbery drool all over. Classic prequel missed opportunity.

TPM wasn't a bad movie, but it was stand out great like the OT had been. It was ok, and served its purpose.