....I should add Frank Oz and whoever is ultimately responsible for Yoda's dialog in ESB. The heart and soul of SW for me will always be "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!"

Well apparently this thread has run its course.

Gone from rogue one discussion to Lucas bashing.

It boggles the mind to imagine what his legacy would have been without having been accidentally surrounded by the likes of Kurtz, Marcia Lucas, Coppola, Kershner, Kasdan, Leigh Brackett, Spielberg, Harrison Ford + Carrie Fisher (in their roles as unofficial script doctors).

And his "ideas" weren't originally that great. The original storylines and screenplays for the "Starkiller" version of Star Wars are readily google-able. His only ambition was to plagiarize Flash Gordon serials... and that's about all he had. He happened to stumble on the work Joseph Campbell at EXACTLY THE RIGHT MOMENT to rebuild Star Wars around an actual "Hero's Journey" template, and cosmically lucked out in having Coppola, Kurtz, and Marcia on hand to reign in the.... I'll call it the "Jar Jar Factor"... while assembling that film.

If ALL of those things hadn't coalesced properly (none of which had ANYTHING to do the man himself) then the resulting Star Wars film would have roughly the same legacy as Buck Rogers or Battle Beyond the Stars - and none of us would be obsessing over collecting an alphabet-soup of plastic space ships!!!

I agree with everything you have said, and yet it is sometimes amazing the number of random factors that can lead to a work of art being great. Watching an artist produce something, especially in a work that evolves through stages, you can be amazed at the happenstance of decisions, errors, and outside influences that ultimately coalescence into a thing of beauty that you (incorrectly) assume was all the will of the artist.

Without Lucas initiating the process, Star Wars would not exist. Just think of him as your unglamorous but necessary Star Wars sperm.

Well apparently this thread has run its course.

Gone from rogue one discussion to Lucas bashing.

Says the guy who thinks that Episode 4 is the second worst movie? Maybe. I can't tell which way your ranking goes. "Go Pod Racer GO!" is either above "Rebellions are built on hope" or "Wars do not make one great" in your eyes, and I'm not sure how to take the opinion of anyone who thinks that way seriously.

But I'll try.

It says something about our culture today that recognition of a harsh truth is called 'Lucas-bashing'. Yes, he had the creative impulse, but the original trilogy was more successful because of the people around him. He did hard work, it's true, but he ran his ideas past the people closest to him and were willing to change them if they said, "That's stupid, George."

Well, for the first two movies. The third one he'd become estranged from his wife and Gary Kurtz, couldn't call on Spielberg or Coppola, and had five years of being acclaimed as a 'genius'. Result? Three foot teddy bears slaughtering what was described as the "Empire's Best Troops" by the Emperor himself. Just how did the Ewoks manage to get those massive tree trunks up in the air at exactly the right height and distance to squash an AT-ST?

But those Ewoks made great toys. Hell, I had a Wicket and a speeder bike when I was a preschooler, Ages 6 & Up be damned!

DON'T FORGET GARY KURTZ!

I did! I had forgotten! I sentence myself to ten Hail Yodas and four Our Makers.

A lot of people forget one of George's original ideas for SW was to hand it off to others to direct and produce and take it in different directions, like a documentary style movie that focused on the life of Wookiees. Unfortunately we got the first 30 minutes of the Holiday 'Special' to see how that worked out. In a similar vein we have to Ewok movies, which while still SW were very different in tone and structure, even having a narrator. Rogue One continues and improves on this idea of telling different kinds of stories in that Galaxy so very far away. Perhaps we will see a noir style tale set in the criminal underworld, or a mystical journey that focuses primarily on the Force and not so much on the actual Wars. Maybe even a story about the lowest caste of the droids and their struggle when their numbers don't match up with the magical R2-D2 and C-3PO. And you thought K-2SO's end was tragic, I'm sure we can much darker.

Anyway, I'm glad Rogue One was made, and that Diznee has green lit the Side Stories as full blown theatrical features. SW has a million stories to tell in a million different ways, and I can't wait to see what's in store for the next movie, and the one after that, for as long as we can keep it alive and vital.

Well apparently this thread has run its course.

Gone from rogue one discussion to Lucas bashing.

Says the guy who thinks that Episode 4 is the second worst movie? Maybe. I can't tell which way your ranking goes. "Go Pod Racer GO!" is either above "Rebellions are built on hope" or "Wars do not make one great" in your eyes, and I'm not sure how to take the opinion of anyone who thinks that way seriously.

But I'll try.

It's above "Wars do not make one great". Shocking I'm sure.

First of all I like all 8 movies, and there's not a lot that separates them when I rank them. But going back to a young child first getting into star wars I was never that big a fan of TESB. It's grown a bit on me over the years, but I just don't hold it as high as many fans. I get why they think it's the best, but it's not my ideal for one of the best of them.

And I really really really hate fans who act like anyone who likes the prequels, or "worse" likes them just as much or more than the OT is some kind of fan who doesn't understand star wars. I could say the same thing in reverse but I don't. I just know I'm getting a better experience with the series by liking all the movies not just some of them.

This is one of two star wars related message boards I use, and this is by far my least favorite of the two because of how fans treat people who like the prequels on here.

*END RANT*

Yeah people need to just chill and let people enhoy what they want to. I can't stand Return of the Jedi and I dont understand how people excuse the ewoks but you know what? I wont claim that makes you less of a fan if you enjoy something I dont.

None of us are the all be all on anything Star Wars. As a fandom let us augment our enjoyment of the franchise rather then deride eachother.

Part of the hate is the cognitive dissonant backlash, I think. There were some trufans who had such cognitive dissonance when the first prequel came out - for months they insisted it was good, no, the best movie ever, because their love of Star Wars demanded that it be a good movie. Took some time for them to wake up, and when they did, they HATED Star Wars with a passion, and only reconciled that over time by focusing the hate on what caused it.

Hell, I didn't watch the original trilogy for the better part of a decade after walking out of the theater on TPM. It... polluted ... my love for Star Wars. Never did see Ep2 in theaters, and only now I'm catching up on all the SW games which came out in the 2000s. Actually didn't care much for KOTOR 1 & 2, but I am enjoying Empire At War.

The peer pressure to hate the movies has probably made you cling to them even tighter, too; that's another well-documented psychological trait.

When was the last time you watched the prequels? It's easy to build up a mental mythology about how good something is if you don't re-expose yourself. Like hooking up with an ex-girlfriend, you forget about the lying and cheating and stealing from your wallet to buy drugs and only remember the thing she did with her REDACTED FOR DECENCY.

Watch Phantom Menace again with the same rigor that you (no doubt) put Force Awakens to and you'll find out that not only does Ep1 not hold up, but it's even worse by comparison.

ROTJ is hard to watch sometimes, it feels like two movies mashed together as well as being the one that has suffered so many changes over the years. The Ewoks don't exactly fit in with the gritty and more 'realistic' aliens from the previous movies and only exist for two reasons: to finally show George's idea of a technologically inferior force beating a far more advanced enemy (his original Vietnam-era idea for the climatic battle in The Star Wars) and MOICHANDISING!

The excellent space battle and emotional light saber fight, as well as Vader's funeral stand out, and the speeder bike chase is as exciting as the trench run or asteroid chase (tho it doesn't contain the raw emotional desperation or the great music of those two sequences) and the battle of Carkoon has a rousing score and lots of splosions and the satisfying and gruesome death of Jabba after he so smugly has put our heroes through the ringer, but it also is tainted with pointless aspects such as Fett's silly dive into the pit and Han, Lando and Chewie giving the three stooges a run for their money while the Skywalker twins got things done.

Jedi just comes off as uneven before the cgi butchering of the last 2 decades, and hasn't gotten any better compared to the rest of the OT. This movie has increasingly been identified as the indicator of things to come by Internet 'historians and reviewers', pointing to the Prequels as the further products of Lucas Unchained. But when I saw it as a 7 year old I could have told you right away that I was ultimately unsatisfied with the conclusion to such an epic saga for many of the above reasons, but I still looked forward to playing with all the cool toys that would be coming out for the next few years. Hey, I'm still buying Squints, Shuttles, A and B wings well into adulthood! Way to go George, you really played to your strengths!

Yeah, I was always in two minds about Jedi. There are parts that to this day I think are corny (Ewoks mostly) and of course there's those egregious digital alterations, but I feel like they're outweighed by that *fantastic* space battle and the duel between Vader and Luke is one of the most intense moments in cinema. You can practically feel the entire galaxy holding it's breath as Luke teeters right on the edge of the dark side, and that music ... wow.

Yeah, I was always in two minds about Jedi. There are parts that to this day I think are corny (Ewoks mostly) and of course there's those egregious digital alterations, but I feel like they're outweighed by that *fantastic* space battle and the duel between Vader and Luke is one of the most intense moments in cinema. You can practically feel the entire galaxy holding it's breath as Luke teeters right on the edge of the dark side, and that music ... wow.

One of the things that upsets me the most about the prequels is the wasted opportunity.

It could have been a grand, sweeping story about one man succumbing to temptation and then redeeming himself at the end, at the cost of his own life. The capstone moment where the funeral pyre consumes Darth Vader's armor and his son, the only one who believed there was still a seed of good in him, watches the mortal remains of a man vilified by the universe ascend to the sky...

Deserves so much better than "Are you an angel?" as a start to the story. *spits*

Oh gods. I'm actually starting to get angry about this all over again. I am one with the Force, and the Force is one with me...

Well apparently this thread has run its course.

Gone from rogue one discussion to Lucas bashing.

Says the guy who thinks that Episode 4 is the second worst movie? Maybe. I can't tell which way your ranking goes. "Go Pod Racer GO!" is either above "Rebellions are built on hope" or "Wars do not make one great" in your eyes, and I'm not sure how to take the opinion of anyone who thinks that way seriously.

But I'll try.

It's above "Wars do not make one great". Shocking I'm sure.

First of all I like all 8 movies, and there's not a lot that separates them when I rank them. But going back to a young child first getting into star wars I was never that big a fan of TESB. It's grown a bit on me over the years, but I just don't hold it as high as many fans. I get why they think it's the best, but it's not my ideal for one of the best of them.

And I really really really hate fans who act like anyone who likes the prequels, or "worse" likes them just as much or more than the OT is some kind of fan who doesn't understand star wars. I could say the same thing in reverse but I don't. I just know I'm getting a better experience with the series by liking all the movies not just some of them.

This is one of two star wars related message boards I use, and this is by far my least favorite of the two because of how fans treat people who like the prequels on here.

*END RANT*

Hear hear. Imagine spearheading this forum's Rebels thread when it was first a thing and endless pages of a certain poster coming in and spouting nonsense again and again, and others blind hatred without fail.

One of the things that upsets me the most about the prequels is the wasted opportunity.

Argh, I know what you mean! It's practically infuriating! They could have been amazing!

*END RANT*

markcsoul, I've been wondering for ages, how did you get a photo of Paul Heaver as your avatar?

Yeah people need to just chill and let people enhoy what they want to. I can't stand Return of the Jedi and I dont understand how people excuse the ewoks but you know what? I wont claim that makes you less of a fan if you enjoy something I dont.

None of us are the all be all on anything Star Wars. As a fandom let us augment our enjoyment of the franchise rather then deride eachother.

My 'problem' is that I don't hate any of these films. This deprives me of the pleasure of crapping on someone else's favourite stuff. But looking at this board, I get the impression that many think it's a wonderful way to pass the time. I could target the Zahn novels and that Gunboat though. Maybe that is more satisfying than again saying something positive about the prequels?

Part of the hate is the cognitive dissonant backlash, I think. There were some trufans who had such cognitive dissonance when the first prequel came out - for months they insisted it was good, no, the best movie ever, because their love of Star Wars demanded that it be a good movie. Took some time for them to wake up, and when they did, they HATED Star Wars with a passion, and only reconciled that over time by focusing the hate on what caused it.

Hell, I didn't watch the original trilogy for the better part of a decade after walking out of the theater on TPM. It... polluted ... my love for Star Wars. Never did see Ep2 in theaters, and only now I'm catching up on all the SW games which came out in the 2000s. Actually didn't care much for KOTOR 1 & 2, but I am enjoying Empire At War.

The peer pressure to hate the movies has probably made you cling to them even tighter, too; that's another well-documented psychological trait.

When was the last time you watched the prequels? It's easy to build up a mental mythology about how good something is if you don't re-expose yourself. Like hooking up with an ex-girlfriend, you forget about the lying and cheating and stealing from your wallet to buy drugs and only remember the thing she did with her REDACTED FOR DECENCY.

Watch Phantom Menace again with the same rigor that you (no doubt) put Force Awakens to and you'll find out that not only does Ep1 not hold up, but it's even worse by comparison.

I watch all the movies at least once or twice a year. So I don't need to reevaluate anything I know that I enjoy them all. TFA might be my least favorite, and possibly the only one I like but not love. But as I said I can still enjoy it.

If you're a fan who doesn't like the prequels, fine that's your opinion.

If you want to complain online about how much you don't like them, go ahead.

But stop making those who like all the movies including the prequels feel like they are lesser fans. Or that you need to convince then that their opinions are wrong.

*END RANT*

markcsoul, I've been wondering for ages, how did you get a photo of Paul Heaver as your avatar?

Haha, it's actually a pilot with the callsign of "hotdog" from the new Battlestar Galactica.

Perhaps we will see a noir style tale set in the criminal underworld

Quite possibly. One thing Disney have done with their Marvel franchise is say "okay, we have a universe, what can we do with it?".

• Winter Soldier is essentially Marvel-Does-A-Spy-Thriller
• Ant-Man is essentially Marvel-Does-A-Heist-Movie
• Guardians is essentially Marvel-Does-Star-Wars

etc, etc.

The "a star wars story" badge is a good one - you don't have to feature jedi, not everything that happens in the universe has to revolve around your actions (as seems to be the case with Rebels), and when you introduce new characters you're not required to keep them alive.

I'd be interested to see what they do with Boba Fett. Han and Lando, we at least know the outline, but we know nothing whatsoever about Fett's intervening years. If they want to injure and mutilate him (provided he can recover), how would we know - it's not like we ever see his face post A New Hope. Hell, I doubt they'd do it but it wouldn't even violate the story if they kill and replace him. Or, at least, have a character we think is Boba Fett turn out to be trying to impersonate the real Boba Fett (like Jodo Kast did) and get taken out in revenge.

When I was a kid I watched my original trilogy VHS over and over again excessively. I was still very young by the time Phantom Menace came out but I could describe every scene in A New Hope. I remember how excited I was for more Star Wars. Before the film we ate at KFC where Darth Maul and Watto and Anakin were plastered everywhere. I was really excited. Afterwards my parents drove to Target and bought me a SW game (the kind that is only one simple game sort've like you would get in a McDonalds happy meal). I can still remember how happy I was, that may be one of my happiest memories. The same happened for Attack of the Clones which was the last film I saw at a childhood theatre. The theatre kind've looked like the Geonosian catacombs as well.

Revenge of the Sith will always hold a special place in my heart as it was the only time I saw Carrie Fisher and Debbie Reynolds. A friend had gotten tickets for the premiere and as we approached the theatre we were flanked by rows of stormtroopers. Then I got to watch a Star Wars movie WITH Princess Leia, albeit several rows away but STILL!

BUT I have been crapped on by Star Wars fans for enjoying the prequels since before I was a teenager and my entire life. I want to reiterate that my entire life I have never been able to really join in on the Star Wars community except for people my age because of how absolutely NASTY and awful some of these people can get about the prequels. Something completely fictional. It is actually depressing when I hear people like JJ Abrams or people in charge of creating more Star Wars content and saying basically "Well I hate the prequels so we're focusing purely on the OT and if you like the PT then sod off."

The movies aren't that bad either. Trust me I see all of their flaws. Wooden acting, awful writing, far too much CGI, and Jar Jar but unlike a lot of people I also see a lot of underlying brilliance. Despite the CGI, and unfortunately due to its overuse some of the most fantastic visual designs in cinematic history don't get to shine as they should. The artistic direction and the look of the universe is incredible. The designs are so unique and clever and immediately recognizable. The story of the prequels is incredible. Some of the actors are pretty good such as Ian McDiarmid and Ewan McGregor.

The weird thing is that I feel as though you're trying to turn it around on the (majority) of Star Wars fans who hate the prequels and make those fans feel bad for NOT enjoying them.

For me, they're... frustrating . There are stories there which deserve to be told: Palpatine's master manipulation of the Senate, Jedi Order, and Separatists; Darth Maul and Obi-Wan's first collision; the story of Padme before she became a mother to Luke & Leia; where the clones came from and how the War began; how Anakin was actually tempted to the Dark Side by fear of loss, the very thing that the Jedi rules against falling in love were meant to prevent; the final days of the Jedi Order before almost every single member was executed.

Those are all stories with GREAT potential. If The Phantom Menace had focused on Padme's desperate attempts to secure her people against a sudden, unexpected blockade and invasion, only to be rescued from the Trade Federation army by an unexpected Jedi Master and his Padawan, who dragged her back to the Senate to testify about the invasion. Then, on Coruscant, trying to find the mastermind behind the Trade Federation's manipulation with the kindly advice of her world's Senator - only to be stymied at every turn by a mysterious red and blacked skinned alien with horns who always seems one step ahead of her...

THAT COULD HAVE BEEN GOOD.

Instead we got a Jamaican alien that steps in the poopy and a kid who tries spinning, because that's a good trick.

It's wasted potential, and it frustrates me.

Thankfully, if the world doesn't end in the next twenty years it's likely that there will be a full-blown remake of the prequels with competent people at the helm.

You've had nearly eighteen years to get over that frustration. I can understand that after all that time hammering oneself in the hole of prequel hatred, it's tough or even impossible that the creators of the prequels did a perfectly fine job.

Thankfully, if the world doesn't end in the next twenty years it's likely that there will be a full-blown remake of the prequels with competent people at the helm.

Partly because they have a plethora of new movies they can make, why do a remake?

And unless they use the exact story it messes up the new Canon big time.

Not to mention a lot of fans would probably be done with any more new star wars if Disney ever did that.

It's more likely they would reboot the entire series if anything. And that would be way way way in the future.

You've had nearly eighteen years to get over that frustration. I can understand that after all that time hammering oneself in the hole of prequel hatred, it's tough or even impossible that the creators of the prequels did a perfectly fine job.

Some films age like fine wine, other get bits of cork in them and only get more obviously bitter and vinegary with age.

Besides; having some competently made films come out in the same franchise is logically only going to exasperate the frustration, no?

I'm not saying you can't hate the prequels. I'm not blaming even the majority of Star Wars fans or the community, although it did seem that way in the way I wrote it. I am highly critical of the prequels, they are full of problems and poor choices. But that's not all they are. My point is if you can see through your own hate and frustration there is a lot to appreciate about the prequels.

Without the prequels for instance Lego would probably never have gotten the Star Wars License. Without the prequels we wouldn't have six or so more hours of gorgeous John William soundtrack.

What i'm saying though is that as someone of whom the prequels are a part of my childhood its extremely frustrating that more then a decade later they are treated as the worst insult cinematic history and to even enjoy them for what they are makes you somehow less of a Star Wars fan. I have nothing against people that dislike the prequels, I dislike the mentality that my taste or opinion is better or more important then yours. Such as a page or two back where someone's favorite SW film is Revenge of the Sith over even Empire, and an attitude someone had that he was less a fan then them.

Be critical if you like but don't be condescending (btw this isnt directed at anyone here). Each of us have our own vision of Star Wars and that's beautiful. It's amazing we all love this franchise so much and I know that those who fanatically hate the prequels do so because they have a deep passion for the original movies.

Thankfully, if the world doesn't end in the next twenty years it's likely that there will be a full-blown remake of the prequels with competent people at the helm.

The hatred blinds your judgement, young padawan.

How is it likely? Disney did absolutely nothing that could give a slightest impression that something like this could ever happen.